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Movie: Three ESA 06 Coaches

post #1 of 157
Thread Starter 
Here's an interesting comparison of three of our coaches from the PSIA D-Team. The first, Nick Herrin, is a current member, and the second, Jim Schanzenbaker, and the third, Charlie MacArthur, are members from the immediate past team. As you view the movie, consider what the coaches might have been intending to show their students during the video review...and enjoy!

http://video.epicski.com/esa2006/coaches.mpg
post #2 of 157

Not a typical MA just some unworthy thaughts....

I think I recognise the first skier, Nick... Isnt he the same guy that made the 360 entry into the bowl at the Epic 2006 video? Good skiing... maybe Im not worthy of even carrying his skis but I think he is demostrating how you block gates with your outside hand and ski pole. Doesent look that nice out of the racing course but a good visual demo. There is also a very strong and exagurated up and down movement in order to consentrate lots of pressure to skis for only a very short period of time. The transition is then made under a very unweighted state of being. Racing technique demo. I see some banking in Nicks skiing. He is instantly recognizable. Nick must be under 25...

Second guy Jim, is skiing very slowly compared to Nick. What catches my eye here is his pole work. Like nick he is bringing his ski pole up as a result of the previous turn. Then he points it forward by twisting his wrist. Like a mogul skier except they try to keep their hands forwards all the time. Since the pole plant is made simultaniously with the weight transfer I would like to se it happen sooner. Especially at the steep the poleplant comes very late. There is also allmost no upper lower body separation and his whole body, shoulders, chest and hipps follow his skis without any upper body counter. This puts his hipps in an unfavorable position and makes his skis skidd more than nesessary. But in a controlled way. Not a bad thing, just an observation. The turns are evenly skidded or drifted and no complaining there.

Third guy, charlie, is younger than Jim. He can probably also ski circles arround me but here on this easy groomed slope hes a bit sloppy and careless. If Nick is the racer and Jim is the instructor then Charlie is the all mountain expert. However, there is one thing Charlie does that is very typical for some good skiers (one of my brothers for one). At the end of every turn you can se a short moment of banking/hipp rotation and skidding. This adds to a very relaxed style of skiing but is something worth of recognizing. Also his ski pole is swinged forward in a circular motion partly connected to the rotary movement of the hipps.

If these guys are all part of the PSIA D-team I can as an European assume that their style pritty much paints a pickture of what PSIA is all about.
post #3 of 157
1st guy seems to be demonstrating inefficiency. Extra movements, like the up and down movement and the drastic pole swing, use energy. It seems like he's doing skiing aerobics.

2nd guy skis well, but maybe a little too static. Perhaps he's demonstrating the opposite of the first skier. The lack of all movement of upper and lower body makes his skiing look a little bit . . . dull (I guess that's the right word).

3rd guy seems to be a good mix of the two. Good, efficient movements of the center of mass across the ski. Movements that are necessary, but no movements that are unnecessary (like the pole swing or the drastic up and down). Good skiing!

Of course, there exists the possibility that I might be completely wrong and totally off base
post #4 of 157
1st skier: all I notice is that the pole plant seems a conscious and somewhat contrived wrist flick

2d skier: looks like soft turn finishes to me, the arc continues so it's not skidding the exit but more buttering it

3d skier: looks like a demonstration of static, banking-oriented skiing
post #5 of 157
Thread Starter 
You guys crack me up.

There's an adage in movement analysis that we should not immediately make a value judgment but instead see what is there and figure out why it is there. Try to go more than one question deep--a caveat about making shallow assumptions.

Is this skiing or demonstration?

Context: morning, day 1, a fall-line black diamond off Wilbere Chair.

Nick had the expert group; Schanzy had the Level II group; and Charlie had an advanced group.
post #6 of 157
I hope the PMTS people don't get a hold of this video or they will have a field day with it. In other words, I hope these guys were indeed demonstrating something.

1st skier: I think he was playing with ski rebound. He is trying to milk every bit of rebound with a strong up movement. What is not so nice is the pole swing, which takes a horizontal path almost. That looks like his style since in the other video (the very impressive 360 entry) he has the same pole swing.

2nd skier: He is somewhat stiff/static for my liking. But the worst part is that he is awfully far back for a skier of that caliber. Stop the vid when he passes the video camera and take a look at his position - completely in the back seat.

3rd skier: I cannot see anything wrong with this skier. Perhaps there isn't as much angulation as others, but it looks fine to me.

It would have been nice to see somebody demonstrate finishing turns with a decent absorbtion/retraction.
post #7 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo
You guys crack me up.

There's an adage in movement analysis that we should not immediately make a value judgment but instead see what is there and figure out why it is there. Try to go more than one question deep--a caveat about making shallow assumptions.

Is this skiing or demonstration?

Context: morning, day 1, a fall-line black diamond off Wilbere Chair.

Nick had the expert group; Schanzy had the Level II group; and Charlie had an advanced group.
I'm sorry to disappoint with my feeble MA skills, but I tried to do exactly what you've described. to divine WHY the 3 coaches were doing what they were doing is beyond my abilities, as I cannot read minds, especially when separated in time and trying to divine the intent from a video representation!
post #8 of 157
Looks like I would have no trouble making the psia demo team.

Not that I want to.

The first guy looked like he was looking for an updraft so he could get airborne. ( flapping sequence)

Second guy was skidding noticably.

Third guy had the best form of the three.

Tell me please that they were trying to demonstrate something rather than showing off their skiing prowress.
post #9 of 157

Context?

I don't know how to take these videos. Some idea of what the skiers were actually doing/promoting/demoing would be nice.
post #10 of 157
I wish I knew, BigE! I hope Nolo does. I sure don't.

I only know how representative (or not) of their skiing these videos are.
post #11 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by uncle crud
I'm sorry to disappoint with my feeble MA skills, but I tried to do exactly what you've described. to divine WHY the 3 coaches were doing what they were doing is beyond my abilities, as I cannot read minds, especially when separated in time and trying to divine the intent from a video representation!
Yeah, I know, really. . . you try to take a stab at something, and then nolo comes back with "you guys crack me up"

I'm glad we are providing you with such amusement nolo. I mean, maybe I should go out and video my friends, not tell you what we're doing, post the video, then have a good hearty laugh as people feebly try and guess what the hell's going on. Haha, hilarious.
post #12 of 157
One thing I know for certain, the EpicSki.com server is slow to deliver video downloads. I'm only getting 3.7 kb/sec.
post #13 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cirquerider
One thing I know for certain, the EpicSki.com server is slow to deliver video downloads. I'm only getting 3.7 kb/sec.
i set mine to background and walked away while I did some stuff around the house. yeah, snails on quaaludes are faster.
post #14 of 157
I'll take a stab:

skier 1 is trying to show control of turn shape by loading the skis.

skier 2 is trying to show control of turn shape by steering round turns.

skier 3 is trying to show control of turn shape by change of edge angles.

All are showing how turn shape effects speed control.

How's that?
post #15 of 157
Thread Starter 
Sorry, mattchuck2. I was laughing because I and 30,000 of my cohorts would give our right appendage of choice to ski as well as these guys. There's obviously a disconnect between what you and I consider eye candy in skiing. Tell you what, I'll post a video of my skiing--which I wish was more like Nick's!

I don't know any more than you do what the skiers' intents were in skiing their particular run. I know that Nick is skiing with people who want to ski the most challenging of Snowbird's slopes. I know that Schanzy's group wants to pass Level III. I know that Charlie's group wants to grow their comfort zone in blacks.

BigE, you are probably pretty close.
post #16 of 157
I would really like to see videos of D-team members, or top level PSIA examiners, skiing at the height of their powers. With no qualifications (like 'trying to demo a concept', 'skiing with a group of a lower ability') attached. So instead of having to interpret what they were trying to show in their skiing, we can say 'this is how they ski' and then try and learn from it.

This has been the case with this and the other video (was it Weems and Rob?) which became the subject of much controversy, and this ambiguity is not good.
post #17 of 157
I will hold off an MA for now, but the skiing looks good. Most of it is VERY PSIA, especially the last two skiers. To me it looks like a demo of medium radius PSIA model turns. I need to look over the video again to look for other things that stand out, but do we really need to do an MA on this? It's good skiing. All three can undoubtedly ski better turns. They were pretty textbook though.
Later
GREG
post #18 of 157
I wonder if we could get some clips from the "Just Good Skiing 2" video that we viewed at the ESA. Those would provide some insight into how they ski when they aren't demoing.
post #19 of 157
nolo: ... I was laughing because I and 30,000 of my cohorts would give our right appendage of choice to ski as well as these guys. There's obviously a disconnect between what you and I consider eye candy in skiing. Tell you what, I'll post a video of my skiing--which I wish was more like Nick's! ...

I don't think there is any disconnect here nolo. The first and second skiers simply don't look like D-Team skiers in that video. I don't doubt they can ski anything in Snowbird (and then some), but we are only commenting on the video. I bet PSIA types would have ripped them appart if they had no clue as to who these skiers are.
post #20 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo
Sorry, mattchuck2. I was laughing because I and 30,000 of my cohorts would give our right appendage of choice to ski as well as these guys. There's obviously a disconnect between what you and I consider eye candy in skiing. Tell you what, I'll post a video of my skiing--which I wish was more like Nick's!

I don't know any more than you do what the skiers' intents were in skiing their particular run. I know that Nick is skiing with people who want to ski the most challenging of Snowbird's slopes. I know that Schanzy's group wants to pass Level III. I know that Charlie's group wants to grow their comfort zone in blacks.

BigE, you are probably pretty close.
Sorry nolo.... if those guys are really that good it doesent show in the video. And yes, I would love to se a video of how you ski . I watched very closely each clip and gave it some ma, read it and give me some feedback insted of just laughing it off as some worthless crapp .
post #21 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattchuck2
Yeah, I know, really. . . you try to take a stab at something, and then nolo comes back with "you guys crack me up"

I'm glad we are providing you with such amusement nolo. I mean, maybe I should go out and video my friends, not tell you what we're doing, post the video, then have a good hearty laugh as people feebly try and guess what the hell's going on. Haha, hilarious.
Copy
post #22 of 157
I'm still unable to understand the point of this little exercise.
post #23 of 157
Thread Starter 
What's the point? I had a video clip of these coaches from the academy and I thought you might enjoy watching it. If I had thought that it would provoke such a negative response I never would have posted it.

Sign me sincerely surprised. I'll keep my clips to myself from now on.
post #24 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo
What's the point? I had a video clip of these coaches from the academy and I thought you might enjoy watching it. If I had thought that it would provoke such a negative response I never would have posted it.

Sign me sincerely surprised. I'll keep my clips to myself from now on.
Nolo,

Good clips....keep em coming. Ignore the negativity.
Thanks!
post #25 of 157
Skier #1 is demonstrating excessive movements

Skier #2 is demonstrating minimal movements

Skier #3 is demonstrating fluid dynamic movements

Goldilocks and the Three Bears
First one is too hot…
Second is too cold….
Third is just right….
post #26 of 157
bill- you still work at mountain crick?
post #27 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by vlad
bill- you still work at mountain crick?
Yes I do.
post #28 of 157
jeepers.
how many years you been there?
post #29 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by hrstrat57
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo
What's the point? I had a video clip of these coaches from the academy and I thought you might enjoy watching it. If I had thought that it would provoke such a negative response I never would have posted it.

Sign me sincerely surprised. I'll keep my clips to myself from now on.
Nolo,

Good clips....keep em coming. Ignore the negativity.
Thanks!
Yep, keep'em coming nolo!
post #30 of 157
I'm only disappointed I didn't see any Tai Chi skiing.:

Even as a Gaper/Noob/Jong, I can tell exaggerated movements when I see them. Clearly a demonstration of different concepts.

What's wrong with you guys????:
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