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Atrocious TNF goretex - pilling issue - Page 2

post #31 of 45
HyVent is not as breathable as GoreTex XCR. That's an important distinction for people who may sweat a lot, or are skiing in warmer climates. In addition, the HyVent stuff is usually a lot heavier -- don't know if it's the membrane, or the fabric they use, or some combo. I was extremely impressed by the light weight of the Mtn light XCR jacket (both in terms of raw weight and how it feels/fits when wearing). All the HyVent stuff was heavy and bulky. And after wearing it, I found the XCR breathes about as well or better than the non-waterproof nylon shell I used to wear. In retrospect, the extra $100 for XCR was a no brainer.
post #32 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by uncle crud
nothing to do with me, everything to do with poseurs and gapers.

gawkers are better off at Paula's Ski Lovers, where they will pay loving attention to those dings in your topsheet.
I'm sorry man. You are so F*cking awesome, I don't know how you do it. Please, show us all the way....

8000+ posts for you, wow, you're definitely "core". How's life for you, bitter and lonely? Sure sounds it.
post #33 of 45
Hardshells vs Softshells. Hardshells are water proof and softshells are not (they may be fairly water resistant). The softshells will be more breathable. The hardshells tend to be a bit stiffer fabric with (basically) no stretch. The softshells are softer and have more stretch. Because they stretch, they can be a bit more closer fitting.

I'd be surprized that the Hyvent stuff is any heavier than Goretex. It's the fabric and manufacturing that contributes most to the weight of the jacket. At the same point in time, heavier means less expensive and lighter means more expensive. Lighter is "sexy" but there's almost certainly a reduction in durability with the lighter fabrics.

Since the manufacturers frequently change styles, it's possible that TNF chose a problematic fabric for this jacket. While it's likely that your problem is not specific to the your jacket, maybe they'd replace it with a different model. Giving feedback to then might help you, the company, and other prospective customers. If they won't replace it, then I'd just live with it since the problem (while annoying) probably doesn't compromise the functionality (and with the extra "wear", you won't look like the "posers" who don't ski).
post #34 of 45
twinc:

Just for your info, regarding the utility of Gore-Tex for skiing: I have skied for over 35 years and had long ago resigned myself to skiing as a sweatbath experience, even on the coldest days. This was in the era of cotton longies, wool sweaters and down jackets. When I started, about 10 years ago, using "techie" clothes--synthetic base layers, fleece vests and sweaters, etc. under a Gore-Tex shell, Wow! I now ski all day (or what passes for it at 62) in comfort, varying my clothing by layer, all under my breathable Gore-Tex shell. Yeah, there's a little sweat when I strip at the end of the day, but not enough to make me freeze my ample a** off on the top lift at Cannon. Most of it is ventilated out during the day.

Are these Arcteryx, Mountain Hardware, CloudVeil, and Patagonia jackets expensive? Hell yes, but it is the breathability that makes them worth the bucks to sweat hogs like me. (Mine happens to be Eider.)

Not trying to start a fight, just a little perpective on how the world looks from that vantage point.

JoeB
post #35 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by uncle crud
the Gore Tex is a middle layer that sits behind the outer shell (what's pilling) and outside the inner liner. the outer shell can pill away, it won't affect the Gore Tex.

beyond that, "looks like complete crap"? man, if you're a runway model, that MIGHT be important (although I question the value of runway models in the first place), but what are you talking about?

The North Face is a "fashion" brand not a true performance brand. you are getting what you paid for.
took the words outta my mouth. goretex is never the top layer...it's actually like white saran-wrap looking stuff that's used as a laminate.
modern North face is NOT what it was in the 70s and 80s, when the stuff was actualluy manufactured in Berkeley.
I used to ride for them, and I wore only their mountain parka and mountain pant. with their sponsorship, they gave me only the predecessor to their modern disco-bondage homoerotica, their 1990 "Rage" line. can you say fudgepacker?
anyway, i promptly traded that sh*t out with a store in Tahoe City for some good ole' Mountain parkas and pants.....the marque has gone rapidly downhill since those halcyon days of scott schmidt and lowell hart wearing the early mountaineering north face gear.
much like snowboarding itself, north face clothing has been shanghaied by corporate amerikan pillow-biters whom fawn over their deep-pocketed, mirror-addicted poseur following.
ahh, snowsports in the 21st century......
post #36 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisBowers
I'm sorry man. You are so F*cking awesome, I don't know how you do it. Please, show us all the way....

8000+ posts for you, wow, you're definitely "core". How's life for you, bitter and lonely? Sure sounds it.
hey- uncle crud's blown me a little she-it here and there, but he's got this point nailed...i agree with the man 300%.
post #37 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by onstar
I think hyvent and goretex crap are pretty much the same. The only reason why goretex cost more is becasue GORETEX is patented. Companies like TNF, Burton pay the GORETEX manufacutrers in order to use their name and products. Hyvent is developed tnf and used exclusively by them. In terms of funtion, there is very little differnce between the two. In terms of make-up only a few carbon bonds seperates them.

right or wrong
... wrong (you asked)

Both Goretex and Hyvent are patented, as are the other waterproof-breathable membranes. While there are similarities between them (and Membrain, from Marmot, and Triplepoint Ceramic, from Lowe Alpine) there are some differences in performance, although those others are excellent as well. Independent evaluations have usually (but not universally) found that Goretex XCR has the most breathability and water-resistance of the bunch. Gore also mandates certain manufacturing and performance standards from garment makers that use Goretex. Despite your disparaging of their products, they make good stuff. A number of my patients have it as patch material in their hearts and aortas, too.

As far as TNF, my experience with their products has been very good- a pair Extreme Gear Goretex pants that held up like new for nearly 10 seasons, a down belay jacket, now 20+ years old, that I still occasionally use (and that they replaced one sleeve, the zipper, and all of the velcro on for free after 10 years of use). Their mountaineering tents (like the VE25) still are the industry standard, and I see plenty of serious mountaineers wearing their gear in the backcountry. Just because a bunch of people on the West Side think that their gear is cool to show off on Columbus Ave and 76th St does not mean it is made only for poseurs. If you really think that there is premature wear, and that it affects the jacket's function (DWR not working to shed surface water, etc) I suggest you send it back- I bet they will replace it with something you prefer with no questions asked. TNF has a great reputation for standing behind their products.
post #38 of 45
DP_ I agree with your statement about gore-tex (reg, tm) 100%.
your assessment of North face oputerwear, however, is wrong.
You're alluding to the same nrth face stuff i have worn for over 15 years, as well- actual berkeley-manufactured gear.
21st century north face gear, much like 21st century levis, have lost their bay-area roots, and are manufactured in asia of primarily sub-par sh*t.
two different products, DP, and I agree 100% about how outstnding the old domestic North Face stuff was.
Incidentally, the only people whoi call it "TNF" are those who haven't camped out in it....
post #39 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by vlad
Incidentally, the only people whoi call it "TNF" are those who haven't camped out in it....
what about lazy typists?:
post #40 of 45
Going back to the original point of this thread: I would definitely send it back. Since it's a hard shell there is no way the outer layer should be fuzzing and pilling like that after such little use -- it's not even looking like nylon; it almost looks like a soft shell material on top?? IS it still beading water or is the water soaking up to the pilled areas?

(I have an old Arcteryx XCR Sidewinder Shell -- well, 4 years old -- that I've used with backpacks and the like, and no abrasion is evident anywhere -- and it only cost me $350.) After handing over $400 you should be getting something equivalent in return. As others, I've stayed away from TNF because of quality issues. this is another reason to buy stuff at stores like REI, because they will always take it back and give you a full credit.

Good luck,
david
post #41 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeB
twinc:

Just for your info, regarding the utility of Gore-Tex for skiing
...
...

JoeB
JoeB: I happen to agree with you that Gore-Tex is 1. expensive and 2. great for skiing. The message I was referring to implied that you need to be on a slope to wear TNF... which I disagree with becuase it's great to have a waterproof breathable shell for all around, everyday wear.

Peace.
post #42 of 45
Good on ya, twinc.

JoeB
post #43 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by dp
... wrong (you asked)

Both Goretex and Hyvent are patented, as are the other waterproof-breathable membranes. While there are similarities between them (and Membrain, from Marmot, and Triplepoint Ceramic, from Lowe Alpine) there are some differences in performance, although those others are excellent as well. Independent evaluations have usually (but not universally) found that Goretex XCR has the most breathability and water-resistance of the bunch. Gore also mandates certain manufacturing and performance standards from garment makers that use Goretex. Despite your disparaging of their products, they make good stuff. A number of my patients have it as patch material in their hearts and aortas, too.

As far as TNF, my experience with their products has been very good- a pair Extreme Gear Goretex pants that held up like new for nearly 10 seasons, a down belay jacket, now 20+ years old, that I still occasionally use (and that they replaced one sleeve, the zipper, and all of the velcro on for free after 10 years of use). Their mountaineering tents (like the VE25) still are the industry standard, and I see plenty of serious mountaineers wearing their gear in the backcountry. Just because a bunch of people on the West Side think that their gear is cool to show off on Columbus Ave and 76th St does not mean it is made only for poseurs. If you really think that there is premature wear, and that it affects the jacket's function (DWR not working to shed surface water, etc) I suggest you send it back- I bet they will replace it with something you prefer with no questions asked. TNF has a great reputation for standing behind their products.
Does the zipper that they replaced look shitty?
post #44 of 45
No, it's a YKK and has held up great.

I defer to vlad's experience with more recent North Face stuff, however my wife has a recent Summit Series XCR jacket, my son has one that I forgot the model name of, and my daughter has the Denali fleece jacket; I have some base layer pieces and some climbing pants and shorts, and we have been very pleased with quality of construction, durability, design, etc. In general, I prefer Arcteryx, Mt Hardwear, or Cloudveil, but in my personal experience I have not had problems with North Face. I suppose some of it may reflect a particular model. Most of my things are used 4 seasons (skiing in winter, climbing in spring and summer), but I am not excessively rough on gear.
post #45 of 45
Regarding the jacket, there's an interesting graphic on the TNF (lazy typist) website:

http://www.thenorthface.com/opencms/...=CA&model=AUC9

Click on the "Infusion Technology" link, and a pop-up window opens that illustrates what the infusion technology is supposed to prevent. It looks exactly like what you are seeing on your jacket, so I would definitely send it back. Good luck.
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