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Another Anonymous MA for ya, GS turns

post #1 of 26
Thread Starter 
I know the resolution ain't great, got to figure that out, but anyway, take a whack at this guy, especialy watch the transition in the last frames

www.modernskiracing.com/Schlope_flats_slomo.wmv

Yeah, is on a Schlope (so I can't spell slope, some guy on the flats)
post #2 of 26
Rename the file...
post #3 of 26
Oh, ya big tease!

edit,, OK, there it is.
post #4 of 26
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier
Rename the file...
Sshh, most people won't even know who that is I left it in on purpose
post #5 of 26
Thread Starter 
V1man, help. PM me about the video :
post #6 of 26
I'd like to see the full speed version. I bet he is hauling. Little bit of an up move in that transition...
post #7 of 26

I'm hungry

Mr. Gary, I'm hungry. After we have cheese sandwitches can we take a nap and then play "Teddy Bear, Teddy Bear,Turn Around????

Have meds kicked in yet for that guy or are you trying to frighten people from your clinics?
post #8 of 26
Please post a higher-res and bitrate version, if possible. It's really hard to tell what is going on.
post #9 of 26
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by doublediamond223
Please post a higher-res and bitrate version, if possible. It's really hard to tell what is going on.
Yeah, I've got to get with the guys at V1 and find out what the problem is

Here is the full resolution .avi. It is about 30 Megs, for you folks with Broadband it should download in about 3 minutes, well worth it.

www.modernskiracing.com/1-30-Run4.avi


Let's hear some MA's on this run!

By the way, for you skiers on or considering joining the EpicBears Nastar Team, this is the best video you can ever watch for NASTAR appropriate tactics and skiing (as demonstrated by a pretty good skier).
post #10 of 26
I too, Gary, would like to hear how people define those transitions. Care to chime in yourself?
post #11 of 26

Buy stock in race gates manufacturers

Is it my imagination or is Schlopy WAY inside the rut coming out of the last gate?

Wide stance, great angulation, clean release, good early edge engagement. I'm wondering if he needs to have his arms open as wide as they are coming out of the last turn.
post #12 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Dranow
By the way, for you skiers on or considering joining the EpicBears Nastar Team, this is the best video you can ever watch for NASTAR appropriate tactics and skiing (as demonstrated by a pretty good skier).
Don't worry though, the courses are WAAAAYYY easier, and the speeds WAAAAYYY slower.
post #13 of 26
Nice footage. Rick, I think I noticed immediately where you are going with the transition thing... Accept for the last transition; it's not in that one.
Later
GREG
post #14 of 26
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
Don't worry though, the courses are WAAAAYYY easier, and the speeds WAAAAYYY slower.
Oh, yeah, did I forget to mention ES is only motorvating about 50 MPH. I have video of him down Gotcha Face, eventually I'll get that up when I can compress these files and keep the quality up.

These angles should give you an idea of HOW FAST this young man skis downhill.

Now you see folks, this is what I consider "good skiing". Heck, I'm one of the 6 people allowed up on the lift with him, so I'm right there. My point, this other stuff that's being sold, its not the real deal. This is and we all can learn from this and integrate what you'll see on these clips in our skiing, on the course, on the hill and off piste. Don't be fooled again





Just a tease of what is to come my friends
post #15 of 26
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
I too, Gary, would like to hear how people define those transitions. Care to chime in yourself?
No, I wouldn't, some things speak for themselves I do want to hear MA's from others, however.

By the way, he is one of the nicest, most accesible, humble guys you'll ever meet. This IS the role model for our kids. I hope he gets a good break at the Olympics and skis to his incredible potential. HE IS GOOD FOR THE SPORT.
post #16 of 26
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Is it my imagination or is Schlopy WAY inside the rut coming out of the last gate?
Yeah, that was one sweet move. He was just a bit inside of his last line. We had two or three slipers so that may be what you are seeing. That run was his fastest of the day (we had timing going).

If you've got the ability to play that one transition in SloMo, do it, the whole thing is a thing of beauty. Look at the feet.
post #17 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Dranow
No, I wouldn't, some things speak for themselves I do want to hear MA's from others, however.

By the way, he is one of the nicest, most accesible, humble guys you'll ever meet. This IS the role model for our kids. I hope he gets a good break at the Olympics and skis to his incredible potential. HE IS GOOD FOR THE SPORT.
Yep, I hope he does well too. I firmly believe that his skiing is of a quality right now that his biggest obstacle to achieving success lies in that which resides between his ears.
post #18 of 26

Genetics? Serendipity? Tao?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
Yep, I hope he does well too. I firmly believe that his skiing is of a quality right now that his biggest obstacle to achieving success lies in that which resides between his ears.
At the elite level now a days with all the sports science, sports psychology, elite performance etc. it may just be a combo of genetics and serendipity. Catching lightning in a bottle. Why hasn't Eric Schlopy won a WC GS? Why hasn't Tommy Rothrock won a WC SL? They have both posted winning runs more than once. Why is Ted Ligety pressing with podiums right off the Europa Cup? Enquiring minds want to know....but there may not be an answer.

- Fossil
post #19 of 26
Alright, I'll play, but the slow mo versions was imposible to watch and I was not able to slow down the full speed version, and he's pretty small to see very vell. That said, here's what I think I'm seeing in his transitions.

It looks alot like the pumping we were talking about a month or two ago. It's almost a skating move to accelerate toward the new turn. It results in a downhill ski that moves away from him and a step up onto the uphill ski. You see it in the changes in stance width. As he comes out of the bottom of the turn, the downhill foot moves away in a skating fashion and he steps to the uphill ski. He is, very possibly, and to HH's horror, on opposing edges for a moment as he is still pushing off the old downhill ski and starting to engage the uphill ski on the downhill edge.

As was mentioned earlier, he doesn't do it on that last turn, as he leaves the frame. That turn is a standard simultaneous edge change.

So, you gate bashers, am I on the right track or did I miss something?

You know, I'd really like to start to learn to race (more than just the basics that we learn by going through the PSIA cert process), but we got nothin' around here except a constant string of 50-60 degree days and not enough snow for the little local hills to open race courses.
post #20 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying Fossil
At the elite level now a days with all the sports science, sports psychology, elite performance etc. it may just be a combo of genetics and serendipity. Catching lightning in a bottle. Why hasn't Eric Schlopy won a WC GS? Why hasn't Tommy Rothrock won a WC SL? They have both posted winning runs more than once. Why is Ted Ligety pressing with podiums right off the Europa Cup? Enquiring minds want to know....but there may not be an answer.

- Fossil
Yeah, what is up with Ligety? It was so cool to watch him beat Rocca by .8 in the 1st run of the slalom the other day. Then, to see that he straddled a gate just killed me. I'm looking forward to him doing really well at the Olympics.
post #21 of 26

slopy transitions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
I too, Gary, would like to hear how people define those transitions. Care to chime in yourself?
OK, I want to hear more too, and I think it will take a naive first step to get this going. So here it is.

For transitions for the upper gates (admittedly at a distance), at first I thought I saw inside leg extension. But upon further reflection, I decided his movement is not being driven by the leg, the leg is reacting to changes created elsewhere. I think you're setting up how his core/waste is driving the transition, but I can't quite see it.

I agree with Greg, above that last red gate his transition is different. He doesn't get full leg extension, he's later, and he quickly rolls both skis over. Maybe the course straightens out, maybe he's late. His upper body seems a bit stuck.

But then below the red gate, he seems to get it back. Just using a lot of quick pause/plays, it does seem like his waist leads the way out of that turn and his skis quickly follow into an abrupt start to the next turn.

Looking at the stills on the nastar forum, I do notice how his back generally looks rounded, with the hips a bit forward, which you've mentioned is part of waist-steering.

So what do the MA masters see?
post #22 of 26
Thread Starter 
First of all, I'm glad you guys could download the higher resolution .avi. Its too bad the compression on V1 will not support the videos we took, however, first, I have posted a summary of the training sessions over on NASTAR This is actually taken from the conversations on the hill, its towards the end of that thread.

I will give you some brief answers to your posts, I don't want to totally let the cat out of the bag as that will take all the fun out of this exercise

Quote:
It looks a lot like the pumping we were talking about a month or two ago. It's almost a skating move to accelerate toward the new turn. It results in a downhill ski that moves away from him and a step up onto the uphill ski. You see it in the changes in stance width. As he comes out of the bottom of the turn, the downhill foot moves away in a skating fashion and he steps to the uphill ski. He is, very possibly, and to HH's horror, on opposing edges for a moment as he is still pushing off the old downhill ski and starting to engage the uphill ski on the downhill edge.
No, not at all. He is not pumping, letting his outside ski rail or move away from him, he is standing VERY TWO footed and carving both skis very precisely right up to the release. What you do see in the sequence where he comes off the "Elbow" and is making an extreme direction change onto a flatter slope is a SEQUENTIAL EDGE CHANGE.

It happens. But let me say this, at the speed he is going and in the video you can't really tell (not even close) is that he moves through the sequential edge change faster than most of use ever do our simultaneous.

I never got a chance to take a close look at those particular tracks so I can't tell you what those tracks looked like but by and large his edge change was incredible fast with no flat spots, just edge to edge. Next chance I get I'll photograph the tracks of a WC'er who pulls one of those sequential moves just for reference.

Let me say this with all assuredness that Erik is not thinking about how to turn. He just turns. He may think about what happened on that last run, analyze it but during the run he is looking ahead and skiing the line his eye presents to him, in real time.

Quote:
I think you're setting up how his core/waste is driving the transition, but I can't quite see it.
NO, we are not setting up any WS here. He is not a WS student past the Tai Chi he studied briefly with TommyK a few summers ago. How that has affected him, I did not ask him.

Quote:
I agree with Greg, above that last red gate his transition is different. He doesn't get full leg extension, he's later, and he quickly rolls both skis over. Maybe the course straightens out, maybe he's late. His upper body seems a bit stuck.
Careful, you are not seeing the whole turn. Just after that great simultaneous edge change he indeed gets extended. Right after this gate, however, he was able to tuck the rest of the way in (high tuck, never a low tuck). So, yes, he is about to ski a straighter line requiring less edge angles at the apex of his turns.

Lastly, where do you guys thing the greatest part of his direction change is happening? Above the gate? At the gate? After the gate? I wish I had more pictures of his tracks. The tell a fabulous story. I will give you hint, however, for the most part, not all the time, his inside ski and outside ski tracks were about the same depth in the snow, the fall aways being an exception I noted.

Keep going,,,, Why not? After all, he is ONE OF THE BEST GS SKIERS IN THE WORLD.

Edit;

Quote:
But then below the red gate, he seems to get it back. Just using a lot of quick pause/plays, it does seem like his waist leads the way out of that turn and his skis quickly follow into an abrupt start to the next turn.

Looking at the stills on the NASTAR forum, I do notice how his back generally looks rounded, with the hips a bit forward, which you've mentioned is part of waist-steering.
Okay, here's the deal. If you any of you got the chance to stand 5 feet away from Erik and different sections of the course, at the speeds he is skiing, you would all realize that of course he possesses a very strong core and IS using it in his skiing. It is part of how we all move. I won't take this into any technical debate, however, yes, he rounds his shoulders (hollow chest) and has a very straight lower back (see Tommy's last post in the WS thread). This is posture, alignment and stacking. At those speeds, those G's the elite skier simply assumes the strongest possible position. Why? Because they HAVE TO or the will crumple under the forces. So does some of his skiing apply to what we (the MSR Team) talk about, most certainly. Does he waist steer. Not consciously and I'll bet if you ask him or TommyK, absolutely not (at least not to the full extend of its ROM). BUT, that said, again, at those speeds, those G's, the racer simply doesn't have time to DO too much, they do what they NEED TO and that's it. For Erik it is second nature, for you and me - forget about it,,,,
post #23 of 26
Well I misunderstood your original post. I thought you were asking us to figure out what was going on during his transition. It now appears that you wanted us to look at his stance during the last transition.

Gary, I realize you are a whole lot more educated than me when it comes to gates, but I see a lot of stance width changes during the transition. I definitely agree with the sequential edge change, but I think it's quite noticable. You can see it in a lot of Ron Lemaster's strobe sequences in all of the WC'ers in GS and SG. But to get to that position where their feet are that far apart, they would need to get their feet apart or let them run apart. If they let them run apart and they project themselves forward, wouldn't it result in the pumping we were talking about? The other way to get them apart would be to lift the uphill ski and place it on the opposing (downhill) edge. I have to say that I have seen this a lot in Ron L's strobe sequences as well as well as when watching WC races. It seems to be a very useful tactic because both of these methods keep the skis pointing down the fall line as much as possible and stepping up the hill both redirects you as well as moving you higher in the line.

Too bad we didn't get a better, closer video of Erik, with him heading right at the camera during one of those transitions up higher on the hill.

So other than a sequential edge change, is there anything else you were implying we should be seeing?
post #24 of 26
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnH
Well I misunderstood your original post. I thought you were asking us to figure out what was going on during his transition. It now appears that you wanted us to look at his stance during the last transition.

Gary, I realize you are a whole lot more educated than me when it comes to gates, but I see a lot of stance width changes during the transition. I definitely agree with the sequential edge change, but I think it's quite noticable. You can see it in a lot of Ron Lemaster's strobe sequences in all of the WC'ers in GS and SG. But to get to that position where their feet are that far apart, they would need to get their feet apart or let them run apart. If they let them run apart and they project themselves forward, wouldn't it result in the pumping we were talking about? The other way to get them apart would be to lift the uphill ski and place it on the opposing (downhill) edge. I have to say that I have seen this a lot in Ron L's strobe sequences as well as well as when watching WC races. It seems to be a very useful tactic because both of these methods keep the skis pointing down the fall line as much as possible and stepping up the hill both redirects you as well as moving you higher in the line.

Too bad we didn't get a better, closer video of Erik, with him heading right at the camera during one of those transitions up higher on the hill.

So other than a sequential edge change, is there anything else you were implying we should be seeing?
We have 9 more videos. I will look through them and get up the one that has the best head on views. John, I didn't mean to come off arrogant, sorry 'bout that. I'm just reporting what was happening out there as best as I can without foisting my POV on the discussion, too early .

As far as the stance width variance. I may have some shots of just his tracks, I'll have to see if they came out. I can report to you that the tracks are dead on parallel in width from top to bottom and through the transition, they do not get narrower before, during or after the transition and he doesn't get noticeably wider at the apex, which surprised me as much as he inclinates. I'm not sure what you are seeing (track variance) and will look at the video to see if I can pick it out as well, its just not indicated in his tracks. We spent a lot of time looking at his tracks between his runs, btw.

Yes, I do think any of you who want to look at his transitions and flesh out his movement patterns should. If what I hear, as I mentioned before, does not ring consistent with what was witnessed on the hill I will do my best to nicely provide another option of what may be happening. I'm really just trying to stimulate a discussion, not quash it.

So let me take a stab at this;

Quote:
But to get to that position where their feet are that far apart, they would need to get their feet apart or let them run apart. If they let them run apart and they project themselves forward, wouldn't it result in the pumping we were talking about? The other way to get them apart would be to lift the uphill ski and place it on the opposing (downhill) edge.
You've got good point. I believe I misunderstood the term "pumping". I don't see Erik actually picking up his ski in those transitions. Yes, I've seen it, I believe Aamodt is well known for his "crab step" (a Fleischerism), picking up the new outside ski and placing it on edge, inclinating towards the new turn with his upper body while riding out his old downhill ski as long as possible. I really didn't see Erik do this, meaning picking up the uphill ski. He just lets his shins diverge for a second and then the downhill ski rolls over and matches his already edged uphill ski. I believe he has already started to inclinate his upper body towards the new turn, this accounts for his shins diverging (or knees converging, if you will) momentarily (by diverging I mean his knees are closer together than his actual track, it looks a bit A-framey but certain is not an A-frame). So how does he manage to keep his track so consistent top to bottom. I'll let you come back at me on this, ball in your court

BTW, he did not have 15 (or how many runs he took) without mistakes. He DNF'd three runs in total. He got a bit too far inside on a few of his turns on the steeps, it is part of his style to really inclinate on the steeper terrain as he rocks up to his highest edge angles. This is just a bit more information or background.

I'll work on those other videos, especially the head on views of him coming down both CB's and Gotcha Face (56 and 54 Degrees respectively).
post #25 of 26
All I get to see over my 26k-baud modem is the slo-mo video.

Still, what I see are turns whose arc is balanced evenly around each gate - that is, equal turning above and below each gate with apex right about where the gate is.

More interesting to me is what I see in weight distribution.

Late in each turn, weight appears transferred to the Inside ski - and it remains there as that ski becomes the New-Outside ski for the upcoming turn. As the new turn progresses into apex weight becomes more evenly distributed over both skis until apex is passed.

Transition appears to take place with him predominately over the Old-Inside ski.

.ma
post #26 of 26
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelA
All I get to see over my 26k-baud modem is the slo-mo video.

Still, what I see are turns whose arc is balanced evenly around each gate - that is, equal turning above and below each gate with apex right about where the gate is.

More interesting to me is what I see in weight distribution.

Late in each turn, weight appears transferred to the Inside ski - and it remains there as that ski becomes the New-Outside ski for the upcoming turn. As the new turn progresses into apex weight becomes more evenly distributed over both skis until apex is passed.

Transition appears to take place with him predominately over the Old-Inside ski.

.ma
Like it Excellent MA .ma We will try to get the video compressed so it can be downloaded more easily, will be working on it in.
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