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All form but no speed for small body - Page 4

post #91 of 116
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l point, atomicman!
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well-put.
Guess I was avoiding suggesting her dad "lighten up"


hey- nothing diminutive about Mt. Rainier...a dear friend/ski buddy/race coach spent a season or two there, and a couple of my brothers who trooped with the 75th also speak very, very highly of crystal
post #92 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by vlad
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l point, atomicman!
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well-put.
Guess I was avoiding suggesting her dad "lighten up"


hey- nothing diminutive about Mt. Rainier...a dear friend/ski buddy/race coach spent a season or two there, and a couple of my brothers who trooped with the 75th also speak very, very highly of crystal
Yes sir, it is a hell of hill for a local ski area and only 1 hr. 20 minutes from my house!
post #93 of 116
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman
Bottom line, let your kid & the coaches do their jobs. You do yours, CHILL!


PS: You guys who are giving credence to worrying about and taking seriously where a J5 finishes, need to rethink things. This is 9 year olds trying to learn & have fun, COME ON!
First, your advise is very well taken, thanks!!!

However, I think you may be a bit hard on this parent. I have personally lived the course of many upswings and downswings in every aspect in life so I can certainly relate to your point about how little a J5 finish is in a grand scheme of things.

I don't know if I had expressed it correctly/properly, but I was merely laying out the situation and was soliciting for advises/suggestions. Never did I say that I cannot do without her improvement nor my kid should live or die by her scores. If, as an analogy, my kid has trouble solving an academic problem, is it wrong and too uptight for her or me to ask for help? Or, should I tell her to move on because solving this elementary school problem really has no relevance in life.
post #94 of 116
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE
If you want to discuss line with her coach, that's fine.

I would not discuss it with her, because of the likelihood of increasing her anxiety as she adds the burden of doing what Dad wants....
Too late. Already did!

However, with that already done, I am confident (hope that I'm right) that she'll get past the burden as a result of my suggestion/discussion. Furthermore, the anxiety that I was referring to has to do with the fear of crashing and not so much non-performing.

My kid is a very distinct personality. While most kids let the anxiety of their parents watching affect their performace negatively, she normally either tunes me right out or do better knowing that I'm there. She also rarely let disappointments face her. If she bombs (at whatever it is), she doesn't sit on the side line to feel (overly at least) bad for herself but to move on to the next thing.
post #95 of 116
that's what most little-league parents say about their own kids. no offense intended, believe me, but she should really be encouraged to spend the remainder of this seaon freeskiing and enjoying carving big ole' arcs, and maybe snowboarding, so as to rediscover real, relaxed enjoyment with regard to skiing. were it not for your own mention of her gym coach(ES!), and her pursuit of gymnastics, AND the fact that you are aware that they "kid" her about her wide skiing stance, i might not suggest this.
but the red flags, in this young lady's case, are innumerable....she might not seem stressed at this moment, but it will catch up and manifest itself some other way...usually does, unfortunately. ski racing results and academic results are far and away on opposite levels at this stage in her life:
she has a bad race season, life goes on, no bigs....
she has a bad academic season...whooops. summer school, a year left back, etc.
i'm shocked you even paralleled the two....(red flag)
maybe it's time for her to have skiing as an avocation of leisure for a season, and for her dad to work out his competitive issues out on the adult courses, less vicariously and more directly.
again, no offense intended, but this is a dynamic i've seen FAR too often, and rarely, if ever, has it happy results....
like i said, she's a KID for chrissakes......
what time does she have set aside to just chill and do absolutely nothing?
free ski
free ski
free ski

almost redundant terms, "free" and "ski".....
post #96 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by chanwmr
First, your advise is very well taken, thanks!!!

However, I think you may be a bit hard on this parent. I have personally lived the course of many upswings and downswings in every aspect in life so I can certainly relate to your point about how little a J5 finish is in a grand scheme of things.

I don't know if I had expressed it correctly/properly, but I was merely laying out the situation and was soliciting for advises/suggestions. Never did I say that I cannot do without her improvement nor my kid should live or die by her scores. If, as an analogy, my kid has trouble solving an academic problem, is it wrong and too uptight for her or me to ask for help? Or, should I tell her to move on because solving this elementary school problem really has no relevance in life.
Thanks. it is meant with the best of intentions!

But, is it really a "problem" that she is 5 seconds behind right now, or even something to be contemplating a solution for at this point?

For now just let her freeski & race and let the cards fall where they may. An awful lot of ski racing is totally about "self discovery".

I studied trumpet for many years. I had a teacher who used to tell me, I can show you how to do it & I can tell you how to do it, and I canshow you other people doing it, but I or anyone else can't do it for you!

SELF DISCOVERY!

Just like in ski racing, she has to have a self awakening and a action & result self understanding of what makes her skis work & what works for her to make her faster.
post #97 of 116
in other words, sh*tcan the gates for the rest of the season, and let the poor kid freeski.
she WILL return next season a much stronger competitor than she would if you keep her in course this season...
i'm not pulling this concept outta my ass, here.
i've seen both scenarios over the years, far too amny times....
post #98 of 116
I know of no better way to send the message that she sucks than pulling her out of the program. Leave here in it, and go on holiday to a big hill at the end of the season.
post #99 of 116
i know of one. leaving her in to finsih dead last at the end of the season.
putting any kid simultaneously in gymnastics AND ski racing is a good way to BEG for a zoloft prescrition for her in the ensuing years, and ritalin as well.
if she's having better success in gymnastics, there's no bad message in letting her drop one competitive sport in order to devote more time to the other of the two, and she WILL improve as a ski racer if she puts gates behind her this season...she'll just be more burned-out if she stays in them.
like i said, i've seen both scenarios far too many times.
time for dad to get into nastar and work out his competitive issues on his own.
let the kid be a kid, get her a snowboard and lotsa freeeeeee time.
post #100 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by vlad
i know of one. leaving her in to finsih dead last at the end of the season.
But this kid is not there...

Quote:
Originally Posted by vlad
putting any kid simultaneously in gymnastics AND ski racing is a good way to BEG for a zoloft prescrition for her in the ensuing years, and ritalin as well.
if she's having better success in gymnastics, there's no bad message in letting her drop one competitive sport in order to devote more time to the other of the two, and she WILL improve as a ski racer if she puts gates behind her this season...she'll just be more burned-out if she stays in them.
Solid reasoning...

Quote:
Originally Posted by vlad
time for dad to get into nastar and work out his competitive issues on his own.
post #101 of 116
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman
that is all well & good, but if her DAD does not lighten up, this will make little difference in her performance.
...
But, I also know all of their parents and they are a very supportive, level headed group, who kept their attitude in check when their racers were younger and promoted fun as the primary goal!

Not bad for a little local mountain in measley Washington!
I don't think it's fair for you to draw your conclusion and opinion about me as you have stated, especially merely based on my opening question.

Yes, I'd like to have more for me and my kids. And, who doesn't. The fact that she became a good athelete is no product of my doing (I sucked growing up at sports, in fact I still do). Nor did I push her, it just happened. I often know when to say the hell with it for myself and move forward, and it's no different for her. You don't know how proud I am of her regardless of her results/scores. But, they don't and shouldn't stop us to try to improve - NOT PERFECTION I may add. When the attempt fails or it's not even worth it to try, then it's time to let go.
post #102 of 116
sometimes a breather is the best modicum for improvement.
again, please don't be offended by my own posts. it's not personal. i'm a longtime professional who has seen this scenario played out over and over.
your statement that you were no huge jock at her age is no shock at all. that's typically the reason for vicarious athletic 'push'.
back her off a bit, get her freeskiiing. i don't say this because i think she is or will be substandard, i say this becuas eit can only help her growing frame and ego. trust a professional answer when you've solicited advice, and go enroll yourself in some nastar.
post #103 of 116
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by vlad
sometimes a breather is the best modicum for improvement.
again, please don't be offended by my own posts. it's not personal. i'm a longtime professional who has seen this scenario played out over and over.
your statement that you were no huge jock at her age is no shock at all. that's typically the reason for vicarious athletic 'push'..
I see how you deduce to that. That is: I suck so my kid must not. It does make sense, at least to some extent.

What I always wanted her to do as an activity (besides school) was to become a swimmer because I can't swim. But, the validity of your general blanket reasoning stops there. I did decline putting her on the team even though I was told that she would make a very good vasity swimmer. And, even after she voluntarily told me that "I can do that on Wednesday night after dance". The wife and I said no more. And, that was the end of it.

At the opposite end, I didn't suck academically but I expect more out of her from school than anything else. That is an area that I would never stop pushing. If she has to quit all the other activities to keep pace in school, then so be it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vlad
back her off a bit, get her freeskiiing. i don't say this because i think she is or will be substandard, i say this becuas eit can only help her growing frame and ego. trust a professional answer when you've solicited advice, and go enroll yourself in some nastar.
I agree that having a breather is always a good thing and it's absolutely necessary. But, not to give an excuse, you have to realize that some people (even kids) just perform better when fully consumed. I know I still do (not so much though due to this age thing) and so does she --judging from her abilities and performance. When I worked 5 jobs (some small some big) through college, my grades were shooting through the roof. When I slacked off during the other times, I was struggling just to get by.

With that said, I have to agree that as parents, we have to know when to back off and not overload our kids. I have no problem doing that (maybe with some reluctance). All she has to say is "I quit" with a good reason (she just did for an activity in school today).
post #104 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by chanwmr
I see how you deduce to that. That is: I suck so my kid must not. It does make sense, at least to some extent.

What I always wanted her to do as an activity (besides school) was to become a swimmer because I can't swim. But, the validity of your general blanket reasoning stops there. I did decline putting her on the team even though I was told that she would make a very good vasity swimmer. And, even after she voluntarily told me that "I can do that on Wednesday night after dance". The wife and I said no more. And, that was the end of it.

At the opposite end, I didn't suck academically but I expect more out of her from school than anything else. That is an area that I would never stop pushing. If she has to quit all the other activities to keep pace in school, then so be it.


I agree that having a breather is always a good thing and it's absolutely necessary. But, not to give an excuse, you have to realize that some people (even kids) just perform better when fully consumed. I know I still do (not so much though due to this age thing) and so does she --judging from her abilities and performance. When I worked 5 jobs (some small some big) through college, my grades were shooting through the roof. When I slacked off during the other times, I was struggling just to get by.

With that said, I have to agree that as parents, we have to know when to back off and not overload our kids. I have no problem doing that (maybe with some reluctance). All she has to say is "I quit" with a good reason (she just did for an activity in school today).

everything is becoming clearer.....gulp....
just let her freeski and be a kid, for chrissakes.....
post #105 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by vlad
sometimes a breather is the best modicum for improvement.
again, please don't be offended by my own posts. it's not personal. i'm a longtime professional who has seen this scenario played out over and over.
your statement that you were no huge jock at her age is no shock at all. that's typically the reason for vicarious athletic 'push'.
back her off a bit, get her freeskiiing. i don't say this because i think she is or will be substandard, i say this becuas eit can only help her growing frame and ego. trust a professional answer when you've solicited advice, and go enroll yourself in some nastar.
exactly.

kids don't need PUSHING they need support. PUSHING is not support.

parents aren't drill sergeants, they are NURTURERS.

Mr Chan, obviously none of us knows you personally and can do no more than make educated guesses. But those of us who have coached kids' athletics know that the parents who PUSH are the parents who are problems. Problems mainly for their child, but in the course of things, generally problems for the teammates and coach too. The tenor gets fouled with hypercompetitive attitudes that have NO PLACE in the learning environment.

there is time enough to compete later.

competition sucks when it's painful and frustrating.

competition rocks when it's fun.

you cannot PUSH the fun. it happens without a push.

last thought: 5 seconds is a big gap. maybe she shouldn't be racing.
post #106 of 116
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by uncle crud
last thought: 5 seconds is a big gap. maybe she shouldn't be racing.
You had made sense until this statement. The kids clocking in below top 10 will love you for this. Actually, they wouldn't be there, would they?
post #107 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by uncle crud
exactly.

kids don't need PUSHING they need support. PUSHING is not support.

parents aren't drill sergeants, they are NURTURERS.

Mr Chan, obviously none of us knows you personally and can do no more than make educated guesses. But those of us who have coached kids' athletics know that the parents who PUSH are the parents who are problems. Problems mainly for their child, but in the course of things, generally problems for the teammates and coach too. The tenor gets fouled with hypercompetitive attitudes that have NO PLACE in the learning environment.

there is time enough to compete later.

competition sucks when it's painful and frustrating.

competition rocks when it's fun.

you cannot PUSH the fun. it happens without a push.

last thought: 5 seconds is a big gap. maybe she shouldn't be racing.
Right on until the 5 second part. There can be a 5 second gap in the first seed alone in JV/IV's.

The rest was spot on.
post #108 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by chanwmr
You had made sense until this statement. The kids clocking in below top 10 will love you for this. Actually, they wouldn't be there, would they?
Drats, you beat me to the bunch.
And I lost to the 5 second rule also, time to throw in the towel.
post #109 of 116
I'm not sure the advice to drop out of the race program the rest of the season and free ski is the right move. I'm hoping this J5 program is a pack of kids who have made good friendships, who free ski a lot of the time, run some gate and go to a few races. After practice the kids might hit the terrain park, moguls, etc together or have a snowball fight. If she drops out of that to focus on freeskiing -- if all her friends are in the program -- that leaves her freeskiing with her parents. Not sure that is best. However, perhaps this program is different than that.

5 seconds behind and quit -- I see a few others got to this one first! If all the J5s are in these races (some regions pull the top J5s in with the J4s) then there will be some dramatically faster kids at the top, another crew a bit behind, then the bulk. No reason to let time be ANY factor in quiting at this age -- if she is having fun and wants to do it -- she should keep it up (in my personal opinion).

Parents -- I agree about the point of too many parents living their own unfulfilled athletic dreams through their children. I believe many kids today are overscheduled and there is too much competition too young. That being said - I really don't see evidence to jump on this dad for that. Could be true for him -- but I'm not sure he deserves that soley based on the posts. I do think parents should leave the coaching to the coaches. Say nothing about her technique, line etc. Unless you raced what do you really know to tell her -- and even if you raced, things have changed. Besides, kids don't really listen to what their parents say -- they listen to their coaches and watch their peers.

Size/weight -- doesn't matter at all. Some of the best racers I've seen J4 & J5 are tiny. On some very flat hills with straight courses it makes more difference -- but skill and attitude (going for it) matter far far more.

Style/Speed -- if she truly has great form (sometimes we don't see it right as a parent -- ask the coach) then it is line and/or aggressiveness. I can't remember exactly what you said but there was something that made me think she doesn't have the throw it down the hill, thrill of speed type personality. I'm seeing more the perfect graceful refined gymnast than a thrill seeking speed lover. She can eventually figure out the line. She may or may not have the personality to risk it all and lay down a blistering but on the edge of disaster type run. But, at this age we really don't know what she'll be like in a few years.

If she is having fun in the program and its not too full of races -- if she wants to do this - I'd let her. But I'd suggest no parental coaching and no judging of her results. Focus on the fun -- and free ski as much as possible in the program and after practice.
post #110 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by chanwmr
You had made sense until this statement. The kids clocking in below top 10 will love you for this. Actually, they wouldn't be there, would they?
it was a question, a suggestion, not a statement of avowed fact. I was wondering aloud on your daughter's behalf. please, don't read it as a mandate!
post #111 of 116
sorry to be sexist but a 5 second gap for the women after the top ten is common, but not for the boys!
post #112 of 116
Might depend on the length of the course and if we are talking single run or combined. Just pulled up the random results of a J3 race from my region. Boys -- combined times over 1 minute. 5 seconds back puts you 15th out of 56 racers. And by J3 the slower skiers usually drop off.

Now I pulled up a J5 boys result sheet. 5 seconds back for the boys puts you 9th of 46 boys (this is again a combined time of two 30 second range runs). If you assumed we were talking 5 seconds on a 30 second run that would be 10 seconds behind the leader in this race which in this particular (randomly pulled up result) is 28th place. The races my kids are in are usually longer than this 30 second race and thus in that case the 5 seconds is smaller percent off the winners pace -- I think we need to know a lot more to determine what the 5 seconds off the pace means for a particular case.
post #113 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman
sorry to be sexist but a 5 second gap for the women after the top ten is common, but not for the boys!
JV's?
post #114 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by tief schnee
JV's?
No you're right probably at a higher level!
post #115 of 116
[quote=Always Skiing]I'm not sure the advice to drop out of the race program the rest of the season and free ski is the right move.
quote]

Nor do I, "always skiing", you suggested "drop"ping "out", not me. this kid is doing gymnastics, carrying a sizeable academic workload, and likely not getting a lot of time to sit around and find her unconscious identity.
i suggested she take a leave for the remainder of the season. semantics rule young peoples' lives, you gotta be carfeul there.
This is my concern, i could give two sh*ts if she wins races. we should want mental health and wholeness for our children, first.
Let her ' take a leave to devote more time to gymnatsics', and call it a season. get her on a snowboard (it'll actually do wonders for her ski racing) and a pass to the snowboard park. hell- get her some twintip skis and send her to the park. but get her out on the greater, open hill, flying free and developing her fragile self-awareness in joy.
post #116 of 116

always skiing

We were thinking along the same lines. I broke out a few random races for the J-4 women (sifted out the 5's).

Combined times were something like:

1.30 1st, .... 1.38 5th .... 2.06 "mid pack" in an SL

1.23 1st .... 1.27 5th .... 1.34 "mid pack" in a GS

at the J-3 level

2.13 1st .... 2.17 5th .... 2.26 "mid pack" in a GS

As an after thought, Bode never won a race till much later in his "J" career.

I'd never write any kid off because like any sport there is a level of attrition and I have seen some of the "shining stars" fall off the radar towards the J-3 to J-2 and J-1 transitions.

A few were for the wrong reasons (drug/alcohol), and a few just quit racing even after being on top and going to post season events.
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