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Lange WC150 more upright for 2007?

post #1 of 16
Thread Starter 
I tried on the WC150 at SIA, and it was an interesting boot. I was told that the forward lean has been changed considerably: it will be at 12-13 degrees, with a 5 degree ramp angle for 2007. This is almost identical to the Head RD/RS boot (which is eased a bit in fit for 2007: bigger instep, a little wider across the forefoot (a good thing!)). Are these changes to Lange new for 2007, or was this the case for 2006 as well? I know the Nordica Dobie stuff is around 16, and the Dolomite Z boots are at least 14 on forward lean, so I thought it was interesting that the Lange is going more upright (it has something to do with modern technique, I guess). The fit and stance was pretty darn similiar to my Head RD's, although the liner was thicker than the XT17 liner I use in the Heads. Also, I think that slightly eased fit on the RD/RS (RS for us mortals, the RD is way too stiff for almost anybody w/o some serious softening) is going to be a money boot for 2007. It also has a new, less beefy liner, which is a perfect match for that boot. Although I have been skiing on the Dolomite Z 130 (unchanged for 2007), it is a little too forward for my tastes.

Another thing that I found interesting was that the WC 130 and WC120 are going low-volume, plug-style as well for 2007. The boots felt identical to the WC150 in terms of mold and design: the only difference I could tell was the stiffness.

I played around with the Conformable/Sidas software, and they have a cool modeling program that allows the sensor to track your weight distribution over a 10-second span. I stood neutral on a sensor for 10 seconds, and the computer read changes in my balance. Although imperceptable to me, upon stepping onto the sensor, I was neutrally-balanced. After 3 seconds, my weight imperceptably shifted toward my toes to counter my body's natural tendancy to fall forward. That would seem to indicate that I need a more upright boot to stay balanced underfoot. It was a very nice tool: I have seen the computer analysis of foot pressure at my podiatrist's office, but not the modeling over time (which is very useful in a ski-boot situation, where you can essentially adjust the ramp angle of the footwear, something not possible in a running or cycling situation). Much of what I saw on the computer can be spotted by a well-trained eye, but having hard data (especially regarding "before/after" analysis) seems to be very useful.
post #2 of 16
Thanks for the info.

The RL11 has a series of large tapered ridges up most of the top of the spoiler. This increases FWD lean. But it should be easy to deal with it.

5 degrees of internal ramp is a lot (IMO) but this also means that it is made for grinding. As you know, ramp angle increses in smaller sizes and decreases in bigger sizes.

Could you tell me what were the fit differences between the WC 150 and the XT?

Thanks.
Jamie
post #3 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgcatching
Another thing that I found interesting was that the WC 130 and WC120 are going low-volume, plug-style as well for 2007. The boots felt identical to the WC150 in terms of mold and design: the only difference I could tell was the stiffness.
this is good news, I've had to avoid Lange boots since the early 80s because of their Fat American Feet fetish.
post #4 of 16
I've done some recent testing with a new device that measures fore/aft balance points in ski boots and a neutral balance point is very attainable.
One word of caution....when being measured, do not look down, look forward. You'd be surprised how quickly a balance point can change with head movements. Also, it would be more beneficial to measure the balance points with skis attached. Delta of the binding does affect this point.
post #5 of 16
That software sounds cool..
It's be very interesting if you could try it over a series of days. Maybe you could train yourself out of that habit? (biofeedback) or maybe it was just a one time occurrence?

How does the existing ramp angle in the Lange line compare with the new ramp angles? I mean, if I just lower the lean in my existing boots, will that be enough to simulate the new ones?

Thanks for that post!
post #6 of 16
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE
That software sounds cool..
It's be very interesting if you could try it over a series of days. Maybe you could train yourself out of that habit? (biofeedback) or maybe it was just a one time occurrence?

How does the existing ramp angle in the Lange line compare with the new ramp angles? I mean, if I just lower the lean in my existing boots, will that be enough to simulate the new ones?

Thanks for that post!
According to the rep, the WC, Freeride, and Fluid line get the shallower 12 degree forward lean. I am not familiar with the forward lean of the old boots, but am guessing it somewhere closer to 15 degrees.

Regarding the biofeedback issue: I would guess that this has something to do with my natural stance and balance, and would be hard to correct. My bootfitter added a 3mm lifted to my toe on the Head boot, as he said my hips were much more neutral in this position. Then, with the analysis done by the sensor, it seems to confirm this assumption that my weight wants to shift forward naturally. I have a very long Tib/Fib and average femur length (my pelvic-bone to floor inseam is 85.5cm (33.6 inches) but I am barely 5 foot 9 (exactly 175.5cm tall). Therefore, without compensating, my hips would be more forward than a person with average length tib/fib.

Fit-wise, the WC150 was similiar to the XT and similiar to the RD. Close across the forefoot, a little more instep room than the old RD, but similiar there to the XT. The liner felt thicker, which took up volume. Based on the stance and fit, I think it will ski pretty close to the current RD/RS from Head. I felt very little difference stance-wise between my boots and the WC150 (unlike the Tecnica Diablo and Dolomite Pro, which have noticeably more forward lean).

If you straighten the shaft only, it should be comparable. If you raise the toe, then you are flattening out the ramp angle, which will introduce a new variable. From the little I know about bootfitting, it isn't all that easy to straighten a shaft too much, although I have seen it done (I have also seen boots wrecked from trying). Probably better to buy a boot close to the stance you are looking for. It is nice that there are some good options out there now: if you want more lean, Tecnica, Dolomite, and Nordica all make tight-fitting boots. Lange and Head will be more upright (I know nothing about Dalbello and Atomic). Salomon is somewhere in the middle, but I haven't tried on their plug. I can say, that for my body, a more upright stance makes it so much easier to stay over the skis and keep the hips in a powerful position. Too much forward lean and I seem to get stuck in the back seat. The difference is really night and day personally.
post #7 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgcatching
I tried on the WC150 at SIA, and it was an interesting boot. I was told that the forward lean has been changed considerably: it will be at 12-13 degrees, with a 5 degree ramp angle for 2007. This is almost identical to the Head RD/RS boot (which is eased a bit in fit for 2007: bigger instep, a little wider across the forefoot (a good thing!)). Are these changes to Lange new for 2007, or was this the case for 2006 as well? I know the Nordica Dobie stuff is around 16, and the Dolomite Z boots are at least 14 on forward lean, so I thought it was interesting that the Lange is going more upright (it has something to do with modern technique, I guess). The fit and stance was pretty darn similiar to my Head RD's, although the liner was thicker than the XT17 liner I use in the Heads. Also, I think that slightly eased fit on the RD/RS (RS for us mortals, the RD is way too stiff for almost anybody w/o some serious softening) is going to be a money boot for 2007. It also has a new, less beefy liner, which is a perfect match for that boot. Although I have been skiing on the Dolomite Z 130 (unchanged for 2007), it is a little too forward for my tastes.

Another thing that I found interesting was that the WC 130 and WC120 are going low-volume, plug-style as well for 2007. The boots felt identical to the WC150 in terms of mold and design: the only difference I could tell was the stiffness.

I played around with the Conformable/Sidas software, and they have a cool modeling program that allows the sensor to track your weight distribution over a 10-second span. I stood neutral on a sensor for 10 seconds, and the computer read changes in my balance. Although imperceptable to me, upon stepping onto the sensor, I was neutrally-balanced. After 3 seconds, my weight imperceptably shifted toward my toes to counter my body's natural tendancy to fall forward. That would seem to indicate that I need a more upright boot to stay balanced underfoot. It was a very nice tool: I have seen the computer analysis of foot pressure at my podiatrist's office, but not the modeling over time (which is very useful in a ski-boot situation, where you can essentially adjust the ramp angle of the footwear, something not possible in a running or cycling situation). Much of what I saw on the computer can be spotted by a well-trained eye, but having hard data (especially regarding "before/after" analysis) seems to be very useful.
Let me clarify a couple of things, and I think Waxman could proably chime in as well.

2007 WC 150 Forward lean same as 2006. (12-13)
2007 WC 150 Ramp angle same as 2006. (5-6)
2007 WC 130 & 120 will be available in a 96mm & 98mm plug shell. World Cup Fit or High Perfomance Fit.
2007 and 2006 WC 150 more or less the same, with only very slight changes.

Conform'able continues to change the paradeim (sp).

coup
post #8 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by coupdevill
2007 WC 130 & 120 will be available in a 96mm & 98mm
How do those measurements compare to this years Low and Medium fit?
post #9 of 16
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by coupdevill
Let me clarify a couple of things, and I think Waxman could proably chime in as well.

2007 WC 150 Forward lean same as 2006. (12-13)
2007 WC 150 Ramp angle same as 2006. (5-6)
2007 WC 130 & 120 will be available in a 96mm & 98mm plug shell. World Cup Fit or High Perfomance Fit.
2007 and 2006 WC 150 more or less the same, with only very slight changes.

Conform'able continues to change the paradeim (sp).

coup
I was also molded a pair of Conformable footbeds, and they ski very well (and took almost no time to make). Articulatiblity is very high with these (they are non-posted) and the mold seemed to come out more accurate than on my last pair of non-Conformables-I immediately felt an improvement in alignment.
post #10 of 16
Thank you for your detailed reply. I can imagine that if it is even close to having boots properly canted, the difference would be huge. I'm going to look into it.... oddly enough, it was suggested that I do straighten the cuffs by several level III and level IV instructors.
post #11 of 16
coupe, sounds about right all of those measurement are indexed off an 8 shell, what i know is that i could barely wear a 7 in the 05/06 150 and now i can comfortably wear a 6 iirc there is 3.5 mm more room in the toebox and less taper towards the back of the instep/arch (that was a major issue at most of my dealers and it is gone now)

and if you see Andy i would love to buy one of the sz6 120 Crazy Blue 291mm as there will probably not be any in the great white north til next year.....
post #12 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by waxman
coupe, sounds about right all of those measurement are indexed off an 8 shell, what i know is that i could barely wear a 7 in the 05/06 150 and now i can comfortably wear a 6 iirc there is 3.5 mm more room in the toebox and less taper towards the back of the instep/arch (that was a major issue at most of my dealers and it is gone now)

and if you see Andy i would love to buy one of the sz6 120 Crazy Blue 291mm as there will probably not be any in the great white north til next year.....

Got it! Send me an e-mail and we can discuss.

coup
post #13 of 16
What is the current ramp and forward lean angles for the Lange 120 and 130 boots?
Also can the Cuffs be straightened?
post #14 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by NordtheBarbarian
What is the current ramp and forward lean angles for the Lange 120 and 130 boots?
Also can the Cuffs be straightened?
Roughly 6 ramp 15 forward lean. As far as straighting up forward lean, it is very easy to do.

coup
post #15 of 16

So How do I reduce the forward lean?

So How do I reduce the forward lean?
I have already had the Spoiler ground off the back of the 130 liner.
I'm using the 1.5 degree canted toe and heels.

Thanks
post #16 of 16
what part of the boot do you want more upright? or what part of the boot is not letting you stand more upright?

around the achillies?

around the solius?

around the calf?

the whole joining of the upper cuff to lower boot?

would lowering the removeable heel or raising the toe work? (same inside the boot angle, just tilt you and the boot back)

just some other ideas ....
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