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Inside foot steering

post #1 of 17
Thread Starter 
I was just curious on other Pro's thoughts on how they tackle this area of skiing.

Thank You!!
post #2 of 17
how to tackle?.......patiently on appropriate terrain. on terrain and in snow conditions where the student has the greatest likelyhood of success. too shallow and friction becomes a hindrance. too steep and speed creates either fear or does not allow the student to master the movement.

tip it and turn it. the devil being in the details!

i would suggest the key being progressive/appropriate movements for the situation. the situation being the students skill level, the pitch, snow conditions, speed, turn radius, etc.

from a balanced centered stance inside leg steering becomes easy. going back to my original comment it can be accomplished by "tipping" the ski, by "turning" the ski or via a blend of those two movements.

a wonderful mantra from bob barnes is "right tip right to go right and left tip left to go left.

gotta go teach another lousy psia/tts lesson. these poor folks....if they only knew.
post #3 of 17
so this is a valid technique?
caught up in the matra of parallel skiing and being in only my second season, Ive recently noticed in the middle of a turn that my inside foot is steered into the turn a tad bit (~15degrees?). Is this bad or should I try to correct it? Im either thinking its my feet and skis naturally adapting to the different radius of curvature each foot sees or me subconciously skidding my inside for a little to scrub speed. Although, I dont think Im applying enough of a skid or pressure to it act as a brake. Anyway, Thanks in advance.

some random info...
Also coming from a auto racing engineering background, this reminded me of ackermann steering geometry, which esentially turns the inside wheel more or less than the outside one depending on your system variables. I always liked to think of it as dynamic toe-in/out. eitherway, just thought this tidbit might be interesting to some.
post #4 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by pechelman
so this is a valid technique?
caught up in the matra of parallel skiing and being in only my second season, Ive recently noticed in the middle of a turn that my inside foot is steered into the turn a tad bit (~15degrees?). Is this bad or should I try to correct it? Im either thinking its my feet and skis naturally adapting to the different radius of curvature each foot sees or me subconciously skidding my inside for a little to scrub speed. Although, I dont think Im applying enough of a skid or pressure to it act as a brake. Anyway, Thanks in advance.
That's called a diverging parallel. It can come from a number of causes, and isn't as bad as a converging parallel, but is still not as efficient and effective as a true parallel turn. It could be caused from over rotation of the torso or being too far back on your skis or possibly something else (?). It also makes getting into the next turn quite a bit more difficult since that's the ski you want to be pressuring as you head down the hill into the new turn, and it's pointed up the hill, skidding more than the other ski.
post #5 of 17

SKI magazine, current issue pg. 73 photo sequence BCD

JohnH, is that what Daron is doing? Followed by a retraction of the outside leg?

(comments written by stuc; not really part of the instructional series though)
post #6 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by pechelman
or me subconciously skidding my inside for a little to scrub speed. Although, I dont think Im applying enough of a skid or pressure to it act as a brake.
Skidded turns or pivots are generally when you see when someone is trying to "brake" while they turn. I cannot think of a time when my inside ski wouold be able to skid more than my outside.

thanks,
kiersten
post #7 of 17
kierstein has the right idea.
Both skis should be doing the similar things throught the turn, outside ski is the load bearing ski and the inside ski is the directional (climbing) ski. I feel my inside ski hook up with the snow and guide my outside ski through the desired path. The only thing that scrubs speed is the direction of the skis to the fall line, or turn shape. To get better at utilizing the inside ski, flare the tail out of the inside ski during the turn. Diverging the tip of the inside ski is not flexing the ankle enough to engage the ski in the snow enough to effectivly use it.

RW
post #8 of 17

Inside Ski

Dean,I had a hard time with this being an old 95% pressure on the outside ski guy. A fellow instructor worked with me and I finally got it (Ron White I belive said this also but in a little different way - apologies to Ron if I misinterrupted him).

Started. 1) making turn and picking up the tail of inside ski maybe 4-6" off the snow and then reconnecting that ski with the tip/turning part of the ski with lst contact with snow. This exercise was done on intermediate well groomed run-slowly.

2) Over some practice time I then slightly picked up tail and then engaged the inside ski into the hill.

3) Progressed to where I am now, think about engaging inside ski and make a conscious thought to lift tail (although am not now actually lifting) and engage the uphill / inside ski.

Before my tracks across the hill and throughout the turn were 90 percent on the downhill ski, now I'm runnning 70-30 in the turn and probably a little more on the traverse of just before transition. Hope this was understandable and I didn't offend any of the real pros on epic.
post #9 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Wormer
I was just curious on other Pro's thoughts on how they tackle this area of skiing.

Thank You!!
It's how I teach turning. I ask beginning wedge turners to turn the tip of the right ski right to go right after we've done a few foot turning exercises. Generally, folks attempting to steer the right ski to the right in a wedge will automatically apply a little extra weight to the left ski. With a little practice and a little speed, we find that making a wedge is unnecessary. We can then turn the right ski right, reequalize the weight on the skis and begin to turn the left ski left. A little edging, a little pressure on the front cuffs of the boots and we're golden.
post #10 of 17
Dean,

Quote:
To get better at utilizing the inside ski, flare the tail out of the inside ski during the turn.
This exercise will allow you to place the inside ski and flex your ankle enough to make use of it. Pete's exercise can do the same thing.
Another exercise is to do a vertical slide slip, pivit 180 degrees and start your pivot after releasing your downhill edge, with the downhill foot (pivoting first) If you realse and pivot correctly, there will be no wedge during the 180 deg. pivot.
From there, take it into turns.

RW
post #11 of 17
Foot steering....?
I try to avoid foot steering. The ankle rolls outward as the toes turn inward and the ankle rolls inward as the toes turn outward. An unwanted consequence of that movement.
Leg steering....?
I teach it all the time. It is one of the first movements I introduce to a newbee. It is also the focus of a lot of my higher end classes. Usually some flexing and tipping movements are included as well.
post #12 of 17
Why steer? Why not just put the skis on edge and let them turn you? You get a tighter turn radius with more edge angle and more tip pressure. You get speed reduction with tighter turns and finishing your turn more toward uphill. If needed, you can allow the ski to drift in the turn scrubbing speed off.


Ken
post #13 of 17
This is where jargon has to be supported with more clarity. Is the term "STEERING" being use to describe turn shape control via tipping, or a twisting of the foot? Huge difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoftSnowGuy
Why steer? Why not just put the skis on edge and let them turn you? You get a tighter turn radius with more edge angle and more tip pressure. You get speed reduction with tighter turns and finishing your turn more toward uphill. If needed, you can allow the ski to drift in the turn scrubbing speed off.


Ken
Ken,
As edge angles increase it gets increasingly more difficult to maintain the higher inside ski edge angle that's needed for harmonic carving of both skis. That's why you commonly see WC racers with a higher outside ski edge angle than the inside ski has. In those cases the inside ski is not carving. It obviously can't be.
post #14 of 17
Thread Starter 
Thank You all for the responses. It is great to get feedback from a diverse group of Pro's. It is good to have a site like this to better enhance you teaching abilities, as well as keep up on the "new terminology".
post #15 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoftSnowGuy
Why steer? Why not just put the skis on edge and let them turn you? You get a tighter turn radius with more edge angle and more tip pressure. You get speed reduction with tighter turns and finishing your turn more toward uphill. If needed, you can allow the ski to drift in the turn scrubbing speed off.
Ken
Now Ken, I can look at what you just said from two different points of view and I believe both to be valid.

I can look at this from your point of view which is, tipping and pressure control along with counter balance moves and no damn evil steering produce perfect turns. I can fully accept this in the context of PMTS definitions.

I can also look at the exact same moves you describe and say that closing the outside ankle and bringing the outside hand down and forward (counter balance moves) combined with forward pressure on the tips of the ski and tipping the skis creates an active torque force in the forebody of the ski resulting in a tightening of the turn radius. That is my PSIA definition of active rotary in carving.

The only difference between the two is perception. Perception as HH states, is not the same as reality?

I am not a big proponent of talking about any kind of steering period. I am much more about what movement patterns will produce the (steering/guidance active or passive) without talking about it. I agree with HH that when you talk about steering you get foot twisting as the perspective.

I approach the subject differently for each student depending on their current movement patterns, their desired lesson outcome and their understandings about how they view turning. That approach can be anything from near book PMTS movements to almost exclusively side slip/pressure bulldozer turn slips.
post #16 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron White
Diverging the tip of the inside ski is not flexing the ankle enough to engage the ski in the snow enough to effectivly use it.

RW
I found that out yesterday with new boots and new skis, I felt comfortable to really tilt that inside ski fully. And that made incredible difference in my skiing.
post #17 of 17
NYCJIM,
Your new boots must be a little softer in flex, so you could flex your inside ankle. Nice feeling when new equipment makes a difference. Cudos to your boot-fitter for helping you select the proper equipment.

RW
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