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What are the Primary Movements of PMTS

post #1 of 20
Thread Starter 
There has been lots of heartburn lately about PMTS, and the question has been asked, "What are the Primary Movements?" (PMTS = Primary Movements Training System.)

From the "PMTS Direct Parallel Instructor Manual," pg. RM-31.
1. Lateral and medial tipping of the foot--inversion & eversion tilting the foot inward (lifting the arch) or tilting outward.
2. Flexing and extending the leg.
3. Plantar and dorsiflexion of the foot flexing the ankle upward or pointing the toe
4. Moving the feet fore & aft (often done concurrently with #3).

Secondary movements include:
1. Efficient arm & hand movements.
2. Complementary stabilizing movements of the hip, pelvis, and spine.
3. Any other complementary, efficient actions that don't start at the feet.

As noted, skiing is mainly done with the feet and ankles. Upper body movement is secondary and done to increase the effect of the foot and ankle movements. Italics mine Any questions?...ask at http://www.realskiers.com/pmtsforum/viewforum.php?f=1


Ken
post #2 of 20
Get on your knees and... [EDIT:had to delete the rest]
post #3 of 20
Ken I tried to ask in the past, and was told I wasn;t to come back until I'd been to a camp. (and since then I've also been told that I'm not welcome by HH on more than one occassion, because I am a lower life form, i.e. part of EpicSki)

As we were discussing in another thread, before it got side-tracked, how does one carry out the first primary movement, without actually using the whole leg to do it? When in a properly fitted ski boot, you shouldn't be able to tip using your ankle much more than a mm or two, and if you are purely using your ankle muscles, and not your thigh/pelvic muscles, then you are attempting to control all the weight of your leg with small muscles which aren't designed to do that.
Isn't it easier, and more natural, to use your large muscles to start the movement, and the smaller ones to refine it - i.e. get the thighs etc to do the initial work of starting the turn, then when in the turn, vary your edge angle, and absorb small terrain differences with your ankles?
post #4 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoftSnowGuy
There has been lots of heartburn lately about PMTS, and the question has been asked, "What are the Primary Movements?" (PMTS = Primary Movements Training System.)

From the "PMTS Direct Parallel Instructor Manual," pg. RM-31.
1. Lateral and medial tipping of the foot--inversion & eversion tilting the foot inward (lifting the arch) or tilting outward.
2. Flexing and extending the leg.
3. Plantar and dorsiflexion of the foot flexing the ankle upward or pointing the toe
4. Moving the feet fore & aft (often done concurrently with #3).

Secondary movements include:
1. Efficient arm & hand movements.
2. Complementary stabilizing movements of the hip, pelvis, and spine.
3. Any other complementary, efficient actions that don't start at the feet.

As noted, skiing is mainly done with the feet and ankles. Upper body movement is secondary and done to increase the effect of the foot and ankle movements.

Ken
What is wrong with this in PSIA? I have no problem with this as a PSIA instructor. This does not eliminate my belief that rotary is a secondary movement caused by tipping and controlling pressure.
post #5 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wear The Fox Hat
Ken I tried to ask in the past, and was told I wasn;t to come back until I'd been to a camp. (and since then I've also been told that I'm not welcome by HH on more than one occassion, because I am a lower life form, i.e. part of EpicSki)

As we were discussing in another thread, before it got side-tracked, how does one carry out the first primary movement, without actually using the whole leg to do it? When in a properly fitted ski boot, you shouldn't be able to tip using your ankle much more than a mm or two, and if you are purely using your ankle muscles, and not your thigh/pelvic muscles, then you are attempting to control all the weight of your leg with small muscles which aren't designed to do that.
Isn't it easier, and more natural, to use your large muscles to start the movement, and the smaller ones to refine it - i.e. get the thighs etc to do the initial work of starting the turn, then when in the turn, vary your edge angle, and absorb small terrain differences with your ankles?
Fox - while I agree that rotary is a useful skill you CAN start the turn more easily by using the foot (from my experience)..... a decent slalom ski requires minimal "tip" to engage edges... so the simplest is to use the mm or 2 of ankle movement & engage them... then start recruiting further as need dictates... (ie on a cat-track not because I only need to edge roll along.... on a steeper hill - maybe a heap more as more angulation required to get to where I want to be)... If you add a bit of forward/inward flex as well you can engage tips pretty fast... sort of handy sometimes...
Just that there are also times I need or want to tighten turn more than angulation & pressure allow - or maybe even to : "skid" a bit in a controlled way & so steer that "skid" (pivot)
post #6 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre
What is wrong with this in PSIA? I have no problem with this as a PSIA instructor. This does not eliminate my belief that rotary is a secondary movement caused by tipping and controlling pressure.
Nor do I. Seems aligned with all the PSIA learning I've done in the past 2+ years...
post #7 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh
Nor do I. Seems aligned with all the PSIA learning I've done in the past 2+ years...

Tipping the feet as part of edge engagement has been around for quite a while. Read some Warren Witherell.
post #8 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kneale Brownson
Tipping the feet as part of edge engagement has been around for quite a while. Read some Warren Witherell.
Or Joubert
post #9 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kneale Brownson
Tipping the feet as part of edge engagement has been around for quite a while. Read some Warren Witherell.
Or Lao Tzu.... "The way to do is to be"

Or Chevy Chase .... "Be the ball, nnnnnnn...."

post #10 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by disski
.....a decent slalom ski requires minimal "tip" to engage edges...
What if I don't have those?
post #11 of 20
what the ski? or the "tip" :
post #12 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by disski
what the ski? or the "tip" :
The skis, I've had plenty of tips lately!!! (Knock on wood!!!!) Let's just say, the bike fund is healthy....

L
post #13 of 20
SORRY - I was being obtuse ... it is fraus fault she posted that picture!
post #14 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre
What is wrong with this in PSIA? I have no problem with this as a PSIA instructor. This does not eliminate my belief that rotary is a secondary movement caused by tipping and controlling pressure.
Thank you for making that perfectly clear.

I assume that is pure PMTS?

If that is so, then does this analogy work:

Flexion is to edge hold as rotary is to the self steering of the ski.
post #15 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE
Thank you for making that perfectly clear.

I assume that is pure PMTS?

If that is so, then does this analogy work:

Flexion is to edge hold as rotary is to the self steering of the ski.
I don't know if its pure PMTS. The minute I say it is, someone is sure to slam me.

That analogy does not hold water for me. It does not make much sense.

More like "pressure control is to edge hold as rotary is to steering of the ski" but even that does not hold for me. To many holes in it.
post #16 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kneale Brownson
Tipping the feet as part of edge engagement has been around for quite a while. Read some Warren Witherell.
Yeah but Warren Witherell had some criticism of PSIA in the same book as well.
post #17 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by disski
What if I don't have those?
No worries, mate!
post #18 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre
I don't know if its pure PMTS. The minute I say it is, someone is sure to slam me.

That analogy does not hold water for me. It does not make much sense.

More like "pressure control is to edge hold as rotary is to steering of the ski" but even that does not hold for me. To many holes in it.
The notion I had was that is it easy to overpressure a ski, and cause it to skid out -- at least for someone my size. (Oh, and I do sharpen my own skis -- it's not the tune...)

In that light, flexion allows mys skiis to track.

Similarly, it is easy to over-rotate or oversteer a ski, which will cause the tails to slide out. You can also under-rotate a ski, which will cause balance/control issues.

So the "right" amount of rotation on the ski must match the self-steering effect built right into the ski (the sidecut if you will).

That sidecut, together with and the amount of pressure/where the pressure is located, and edge angle you are using dictates how the ski will turn UNDER YOU.... and the the "right" amount of femur rotation is dicated by that behaviour of the ski -- you "apply" enough rotary to folow the ski.

It is a reactive sort of thing, like flexion is when going from hard-pack to boiler-plate -- you need the right amount so as not to overpressure the ski and allow the ski to continue to track, just like you need the right amount of rotary to keep the ski in it's track.

sound about right?
post #19 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE
The notion I had was that is it easy to overpressure a ski, and cause it to skid out -- at least for someone my size. (Oh, and I do sharpen my own skis -- it's not the tune...)

In that light, flexion allows mys skiis to track.
This conjures up both legs flexing out of the fall line to absorb pressure and thereby hanging onto the old turn. In my opinion we have two legs and each have an upper/hip joint, a knee joint and lower leg/ankle joint. That gives us six joints. To control pressure I may be flexing or extending any of those six joints simultaneously to allow my skis to guide accurately under my CM without any up and down associated with flex or extend only. That means I label that pressure control instead of flexion.


Quote:
Similarly, it is easy to over-rotate or oversteer a ski, which will cause the tails to slide out. You can also under-rotate a ski, which will cause balance/control issues.

So the "right" amount of rotation on the ski must match the self-steering effect built right into the ski (the sidecut if you will).

That sidecut, together with and the amount of pressure/where the pressure is located, and edge angle you are using dictates how the ski will turn UNDER YOU.... and the the "right" amount of femur rotation is dicated by that behaviour of the ski -- you "apply" enough rotary to folow the ski.
I am not sure I totally buy the last part of your last sentence any more. I have started to have some problems with it but do think that most skiers will understand what you want if you use that.

I am no longer sure that applying rotary (twisting into the sidecut) can be done without a countering upper body movement that is not in the direction of the turn and thereby difficult to control. Still playing with it.
post #20 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre
This conjures up both legs flexing out of the fall line to absorb pressure and thereby hanging onto the old turn. In my opinion we have two legs and each have an upper/hip joint, a knee joint and lower leg/ankle joint. That gives us six joints. To control pressure I may be flexing or extending any of those six joints simultaneously to allow my skis to guide accurately under my CM without any up and down associated with flex or extend only. That means I label that pressure control instead of flexion.


I am not sure I totally buy the last part of your last sentence any more. I have started to have some problems with it but do think that most skiers will understand what you want if you use that.

I am no longer sure that applying rotary (twisting into the sidecut) can be done without a countering upper body movement that is not in the direction of the turn and thereby difficult to control. Still playing with it.
I was going to start with "pressure control is to edge hold....", but tried to simplify. Went too far I guess, but most folks think pressure control happens only after the fall-line, where you are flexing. And yes, at all 6 joints.

I agree that some sort of countering movement is required, especially if you are forcefully twisting into the sidecut. That's just simple action/reaction -- lower body rotates about an axis, so upper body counter-rotates about that same axis.

This is why is put quotes around "apply". Maybe "allow" is a better word?

If the lower body rotary action is a secondary/natural occurrence, then should'nt the upper body rotary reaction (countering upper body movement) also be a secondary/natural occurrence?
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