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Tyrolia's "race diagonal" vs "full diagonal:" ACL-unfriendly?

post #1 of 18
Thread Starter 
Hi,

I am getting a pair of i.XRC 1200 with FreeFlex 17 (DIN 6-17) bindings. I do not need a 17 DIN (I ski at 9.5 and may boost to 10/11 for CityLeague maybe, because of the ruts), but picked that binding because it was the same price as the FreeFlex 14 (DIN 4-14) and typically racier bindings are built better than others (since I get attached to my skis and can't sell them, bindings get old; my last ones broke because the plastic became brittle over time). Don't get me the "middle of the values is better for the spring so you should have picked the 14" stuff, this is not what I am asking for.

I thought the bindings would be identical save for the DIN range and maybe sturdier construction for the 17. But on Tyrolia's Web site I saw that the 17 has a "race diagonal" release versus a "full diagonal" for the 14:

Quote:
FULL DIAGONAL [FreeFlex 14]

180°-release range, from vertical to horizontal.
Intelligently-programmed, direct DIAGONAL release.
Ensured optimum protection during backward twisting falls.

RACE DIAGONAL [FreeFlex 17, which I am getting]

Specially designed for racers.
Vertical retention/release values are set higher.
Allows even the most extreme backward lean during races without unwanted release.
The last sentence worries me slightly. I know what they mean, but how is that going to transfer to ACL risks in everyday skiing? I'll use the ski for teaching too (I coach a Buddy Werner program which is basically a lot of free skiing everywhere on the mountain, groomed or not, with a few days of gates thrown in). Not that I have had an ACL-threating fall yet (anti jinx inserted here).

My order ships tomorrow...

YA
post #2 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ladede
Hi,

I am getting a pair of i.XRC 1200 with FreeFlex 17 (DIN 6-17) bindings. I do not need a 17 DIN (I ski at 9.5 and may boost to 10/11 for CityLeague maybe, because of the ruts), but picked that binding because it was the same price as the FreeFlex 14 (DIN 4-14) and typically racier bindings are built better than others (since I get attached to my skis and can't sell them, bindings get old; my last ones broke because the plastic became brittle over time). Don't get me the "middle of the values is better for the spring so you should have picked the 14" stuff, this is not what I am asking for.

I thought the bindings would be identical save for the DIN range and maybe sturdier construction for the 17. But on Tyrolia's Web site I saw that the 17 has a "race diagonal" release versus a "full diagonal" for the 14:



The last sentence worries me slightly. I know what they mean, but how is that going to transfer to ACL risks in everyday skiing? I'll use the ski for teaching too (I coach a Buddy Werner program which is basically a lot of free skiing everywhere on the mountain, groomed or not, with a few days of gates thrown in). Not that I have had an ACL-threating fall yet (anti jinx inserted here).

My order ships tomorrow...

YA
i may be incorrect, but the way the knee is built, i believe you some rotational component in order to tear the acl. if you were just to fall backwards, you would likely injure the tibia or fibula before your ligament due to the way your boot sits up against your calf and exerts torque during a back-leaning fall.

it seems like the binding has taken into account the twisting aspect and would likely serve protective if a rotating fall took place. the way that last sentence is worded, it seems like they are talking about a solely backward fall with no rotation... in which case you should worry about fracturing your tib/fib instead of tearing your acl.

EDIT: i think i may have been unclear. i think both of them have the "horizontal" release which is what is going to save your acl. the "vertical" release is more likely to save tib/fib fractures than acl tears.
post #3 of 18
and i'll throw in a quick plug for straight skis, too. a lot of acl injury has to do with the ski's cut turning your leg medially (towards your body's midline) after you've fallen; this, in effect, twists your leg while your thigh stays stationary... hence the propensity to tear acl.
post #4 of 18
Thread Starter 
Ha! My friend just broke his tibia and fibula an hour before being timed for CityLeague racing. (He was on regular 3.5-12 bindings though). I believe you're right, ACL tears are from a twisted backward fall. I am wondering if the increased vertical stiffness has an impact (or if the horizontal release will trigger the same regardless in a twisting fall).

Well I guess if I get the race bindings, I should start racing being back in straights and develop these huge quads too

drC
post #5 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by GlenPlake
and i'll throw in a quick plug for straight skis, too. a lot of acl injury has to do with the ski's cut turning your leg medially (towards your body's midline) after you've fallen; this, in effect, twists your leg while your thigh stays stationary... hence the propensity to tear acl.
This board censors the things I want to say to you.

If you aren't using the "Race diagonal" bindings with a race stock ski, its far more likely that your tails will come out from underneath you before you break a leg in a straight backwards fall.
post #6 of 18
Thread Starter 
Hmmm. Why? The way the binding releases shouldn't change the way a ski skis. Now I know that the i.XRC 1200 has a stiff tail but it still would with one of Tyrolia's non-race bindings, or with the "racing" category FreeFlex 14 (full diagonal) too.

Unless you can elaborate?

YA
post #7 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ladede
Ha! My friend just broke his tibia and fibula an hour before being timed for CityLeague racing. (He was on regular 3.5-12 bindings though). I believe you're right, ACL tears are from a twisted backward fall. I am wondering if the increased vertical stiffness has an impact (or if the horizontal release will trigger the same regardless in a twisting fall).

Well I guess if I get the race bindings, I should start racing being back in straights and develop these huge quads too

drC
i think vertical stiffness does have an impact in the sense that you cannot (or are very unlikely to) tear your acl if you are not in your skis. i.e. you can't have a falling back and twisting fall if when you fall back, you come out of your skis easily.

you really need the ski to come across the front of your body, in turn twisting your leg medially in relation to the thigh. and the problem is that you rarely fall straight back without some degree of torsion either medially or laterally.

i think the biggest factor, though, is keeping in shape and doing proper warmup/stretching. (also skiing straight skis )
post #8 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ladede
Hmmm. Why? The way the binding releases shouldn't change the way a ski skis. Now I know that the i.XRC 1200 has a stiff tail but it still would with one of Tyrolia's non-race bindings, or with the "racing" category FreeFlex 14 (full diagonal) too.

Unless you can elaborate?

YA

its just a simple comparison between the flex of your bones and the flex of the ski... the flex of the ski is far softer than the the flex of your bones. As far as an ACL tear, those require a twisting motion and articles have been written as to how to prevent acl injuries in a fall.
post #9 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Takecontrol618
This board censors the things I want to say to you.

If you aren't using the "Race diagonal" bindings with a race stock ski, its far more likely that your tails will come out from underneath you before you break a leg in a straight backwards fall.
so you don't think the fact that a ski inherently carves has any effect on acl injury especially given the knowledge that an acl tear is the result of a twisting injury?
post #10 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by GlenPlake
so you don't think the fact that a ski inherently carves has any effect on acl injury especially given the knowledge that an acl tear is the result of a twisting injury?
It doesnt "inherently carve" any more than a straight ski does. The injury has more to do with how the knee twists while you're trying to recover from the fall than the actual fall, which is why articles have been written on how to avoid it with more content than "don't fall backwards on shaped skis."

You've got more pseudo-science up your sleeves than the Christian right.
post #11 of 18
ACTUALLY, you can get your ACL with a backwards fall if you do it hard enough. If you can cause your femur to slip forward across your tibia it will knock the top of your tibia off where your ACL connects... that's a big pain the... knee. As for shaped skis contributing to knee injuries... no... it's people that either don't know how to fall or people who try to recover from a fall who injure their knees. The only knee injures I have seen were a result of someone trying to "save" a backwards twister during a race. One resulted in the knee looking like ground meat, and the other ended up with a fractured tibia and cartilage dammage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Takecontrol618
This board censors the things I want to say to you.
We have all been there...

Later

GREG
post #12 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Takecontrol618
It doesnt "inherently carve" any more than a straight ski does. The injury has more to do with how the knee twists while you're trying to recover from the fall than the actual fall, which is why articles have been written on how to avoid it with more content than "don't fall backwards on shaped skis."

You've got more pseudo-science up your sleeves than the Christian right.
yea, all that anatomy i took must just be my imagination.

the shaped skis do inherently carve more than a straight ski... that's the whole point of side cut. with the newer skis, if you manage to hit an edge while falling, the ski is more likely to use the side cut (just as it does when you put it on edge when making a turn) to turn across the front of your body, twisting your leg and tearing your acl in the process.
post #13 of 18
Thread Starter 
Stop fighting I am reassured now, since I never try to stop my falls. They're too hard to resist anyway (the cost for them happening only so often?). I only got whiplash and cracked ribs from my last one, and I'll keep specializing in upper body non-joint injuries.

And I'll deal with the "race diagonal" I guess. Damn me. I guess I could call Head and switch to the FreeFlex 14 since they still haven't shipped. Ugh.

YA
post #14 of 18
Oh yeah, I forgot about the topic. You will be fine in them. Look at it this way: now you won't have anything stopping you from doing huge backflips into a slightly back seat landing that would blow off a normal ski...
Later
GREG
post #15 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier
ACTUALLY, you can get your ACL with a backwards fall if you do it hard enough. If you can cause your femur to slip forward across your tibia it will knock the top of your tibia off where your ACL connects... that's a big pain the... knee. As for shaped skis contributing to knee injuries... no... it's people that either don't know how to fall or people who try to recover from a fall who injure their knees. The only knee injures I have seen were a result of someone trying to "save" a backwards twister during a race. One resulted in the knee looking like ground meat, and the other ended up with a fractured tibia and cartilage dammage.



We have all been there...

Later

GREG

here's a good article from some doctors talking about acl injuries
http://www.wilkesbeacon.com/media/paper533/news/2002/02/21/Features/Health.Beat-186853.shtml?norewrite&sourcedomain=www.wilkesbeac on.com

Quote:
Parabolic-shaped, shorter skis that are easier to steer and hold better on turns have made many feel more comfortable on the slopes. But, "when you get back on that back edge of the shaped ski," Shealy says, "the weight is on the back side and the inside edge only. It carves a turn up the hill and causes the body to go up the hill while skiers are trying to go downward." This, in turn, can result in a fall that injures the knee, he says. Skiers' ability to "ride an edge" increased when boots became stiffer and higher. It also forced the knee to bend further forward, even if you're falling backward, he adds.
post #16 of 18
...........
post #17 of 18
Actually I think there are less injuries on the WC now than back when they were on straight skis with 70ish mm of lift... Either way, the fall that you quoted is a skier trying to save their fall. They stiffen and contort their body and end up tearing something.
Later
GREG
post #18 of 18
Dec 05 Ski Magazine on page 197 is an artical about ACL's. I hope everybody reads it.

I saw a video years ago, I think it's called "the Phatem Foot". There are a number of things that have to happen to tear the ACL.

The best way to not tear the ACL is to "NOT TRY TO STOP THE FALL" do not reach back with your hand to prevent you from hitting the snow or ground.

I have been telling myself that for years.

A friends daughter just tore her ACL, she's the 4 girl from the academy in four weeks.

Over Christmas we tried to tell her how to pervent it from happening, she wouldn't listen, ("teenagers"). When she told her mom what happened, she also told mom, "she knew what she did wrong".
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