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PMTS: Cutting edge,,, NOT! - Page 22

post #631 of 653
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
Wish I could. I've seen him mention the pivoting pole analogy a couple times to explain that in PMTS the CM in fact does, and has to, rise through the transition.
If I recall correctly he was using the pole analogy to explain why it looked like he was rising in video clips when he doesn't actually usig any up movement to release.
post #632 of 653
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
Wish I could. I've seen him mention the pivoting pole analogy a couple times to explain that in PMTS the CM in fact does, and has to, rise through the transition. It got rave reviews from the PMTS'ers at the time. He used it to explain the difference between a rise in the CM as a result of extension in the legs (bad), as is advocated (according to him) by TTS, and the passive rise of the CM that occurs in PMTS, in similarity to his pivoting pole example.
That was in relation to skiing at very high edge angles though where the hips are lower to the ground then they could possibly be at transition without sitting back. In those cases the CM has to "rise" to get over the leg since you can't pass through them. At that point you have reached the logical maximum of a cross-under and retracting any further puts you in the back seat.

The part missing from the ski pole analogy is that the pole starts out long at the fall line and shrinks down to its minimum size where it has to become rigid, tips over, and starts to extend again. The pole is not rigid from fall line to fall line.

That's a key focus from the very start of PMTS instruction starting at the relaxing of the stance foot and becomming more aggressive retraction to support intent.
post #633 of 653
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501
If I recall correctly he was using the pole analogy to explain why it looked like he was rising in video clips when he doesn't actually usig any up movement to release.
Yes, I think you could be right. That may have been one of the instances when he referred to it.
post #634 of 653
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by onyxjl
The part missing from the ski pole analogy is that the pole starts out long at the fall line and shrinks down to its minimum size where it has to become rigid, tips over, and starts to extend again. The pole is not rigid from fall line to fall line.
A couple sacrifices are associated with the flexing pole theory, onyxjl.

1: It introduces unnecessary movement. The old inside leg comes to the end of the prior turn in a state of flexion, more flexed than it will be at the apex of the following turn when playing the roll of the new stance (outside) ski. To get where it needs to go in the next turn it will have to be extended. If it's flexed even further as it proceeds through the transition, it will have further still to be extended to reach it's ideal state in the new turn. This adds extra movement at both ends: added flexion movement as neutral is approached, and added extension movement to recover from the added flexion as the new turn is engaged.

2: By maintaining through the transition the amount of old inside leg flexion that exists at the end of the prior turn, downward pressure is naturally applied to old inside foot through the first half of the transition, which provides a good feel of the edge change as it occurs. The more flexion is used to avoid that pressure, the more vague and disconnected the sensation of the edge change becomes.

Check out the image links I provided in my last few posts. How much additional flexion do you see through the transition is the old inside leg?
post #635 of 653
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
Check out the image links I provided in my last few posts. How much additional flexion do you see through the transition is the old inside leg?
I mentioned only relaxing and retracting the stance foot. To be more clear, the pole analogy is refering specifcally to the stance foot and the change of the stance foot at neutral.

You are correct, why retract the free foot if there is no need to do so?

I am not aware of PMTS advocating adding additional flexion of the free foot other than what is needed to create and maintain angulation up to the point of release.

I look at it this way. When you look at a skier from the fall line to transition a PMTS adovcated turn would have the outside leg retracting to meet the length of the inside leg. In a cross-over, you have the opposite with the inside leg extending to meet the length of the outside leg. Probably more than likely most turns exhibit some element of both, but which one is the primary focus?
post #636 of 653
Thread Starter 
The reason I focused on the old free foot (old inside foot for you non PMTS guys) is because when you relax the old stance leg (old outside leg) pressure transfers to the free foot, and it becomes the primary pivot point. It's that trasfer of pressure that creates the temporary state of imbalance that allows the forces of the turn to drive the CM laterally across the feet, and into the new turn. When done as such, you actually feel the entire edge change occur in the new stance foot, from little toe edge, to flat, to big toe edge.

If you were only advocating flexion of the old stance leg then I'm totally on board with you. I distinquish cross over, cross under, and cross through a little different than you, but that's OK. It's one of the biggest areas of jargon confusion out there. As long as the movement patterns taking place are understood, the terms used to respresent them are not so crucial.
post #637 of 653
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
A couple sacrifices are associated with the flexing pole theory, onyxjl.

1: It introduces unnecessary movement. The old inside leg comes to the end of the prior turn in a state of flexion, more flexed than it will be at the apex of the following turn when playing the roll of the new stance (outside) ski. To get where it needs to go in the next turn it will have to be extended. If it's flexed even further as it proceeds through the transition, it will have further still to be extended to reach it's ideal state in the new turn. This adds extra movement at both ends: added flexion movement as neutral is approached, and added extension movement to recover from the added flexion as the new turn is engaged.

2: By maintaining through the transition the amount of old inside leg flexion that exists at the end of the prior turn, downward pressure is naturally applied to old inside foot through the first half of the transition, which provides a good feel of the edge change as it occurs. The more flexion is used to avoid that pressure, the more vague and disconnected the sensation of the edge change becomes.
Now I remember the conversation Rick. Take your race hat off and put on a big grins recreational hat and take the turn all the way back across the fall line. you will still be increasing angles past the apex of the turn. He was not talking fastest line through the gates in that thread.
post #638 of 653
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
hrstrat, if you really want to learn to ski slalom, you'll have to disregard HH's condemnation of "rotor entry" transitions (item #4 on the PSIA bad list). Without using that type of transition, you'll never achieve the quickness you're looking for. High C engagement won't do it for you. High C engagement will force you to be too round and too slow. Ya gotta pivot first, then engage. Then you can ski straighter. Then you can be fast.
Completely agree Rick. Unlike coolaid drinkers I certainly do not reject rotary as a skill towards achieving power and quickness. In HH videos he shows many images of world cup skiers in the gates to prove the phantom move is key. Clearly in these images he shows there is also rotary movement. But, remember his presentation is directed at recreational intermediate skiers who couldn't see rotary like we can anyway. It certainly is not directed at someone like you with a USSA background.

The title of this thread "PMTS: cutting edge not" is quite obviously correct. As I said above there is really nothing new in PMTS. What is different however is the focus. Remember the target audience, and remember this is marketing. As I blasted down 10th Mtn at Wachusett Friday blazing by intermediate skiers who had just come out of their lvl 5 group lessons I actually wondered do those skiers really want to practice those open parallel turns the rest of their lives, or do would they rather dance with the mountain like I am, driving their little Volkl ferrari's into whatever turnshape and path they chose? Could the PMTS focus on balance and passive edging using ski design get them quicker to where I am vs that group lesson taught by a Wachusett lvl 1 instructor to 8 students of differing ability, interest, fitness and focus?

Maybe that is where the cutting edge is. For many skiers PMTS might get them from there to here quicker. Again, generalizing here. I always need to remember I am a visual learner as well as a multi sport athlete. If I see it I can copy it. HH assumes (at least on his videos) that all skiers are like me. We know all instruction must fit the student and be student centered. Can a reasonably fit and highly motivated intermediate skier achieve quick progression via HH instructional books and videos? I think it is possible and worth sampling for many especially if they are lucky enough to be visual learners. Probably at least half of the folks in the group lesson are not visual learners and might be better off and happier in the conventional group lesson format progressing through all of the centerline movements. I have no agenda and cast no stones at conventional ski instruction.

Take what works, reject the dogma and the coolaid and enjoy.

My current ski system is my Tecnica explosion 8's with custom footbeds, Volkl Allstars and my open mind. Working pretty good so far thanks in no small part to discussions like these on epicski.

Thanks Rick.
post #639 of 653
Thread Starter 
Excellent post, hrstrat57. A very level headed perspective.
post #640 of 653
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre
Now I remember the conversation Rick. Take your race hat off and put on a big grins recreational hat and take the turn all the way back across the fall line. you will still be increasing angles past the apex of the turn. He was not talking fastest line through the gates in that thread.
But Pierre, what I was speaking about there was not race based. And the principle holds true regardless of the angle to the falline at which it's initiated. I really do try to keep the bulk of my comments here geared toward info that's directly applicable to recreational skiing.

Case in point: here I was expounding of the virtues of a transition methodology that enhances the feel and quality of the initiation phase of an arc to arc turn, a turn that I've repeatedly here endorsed as a foundation turn for recreational skiers to aspire to, but one that over the past few years has become less and less the holy grail in racing.
post #641 of 653
hrstrat57, nice post, and I'm with you all the way. Good on ya!

My wife is one of those examples. I don't know if she'll ever experience arc-to-arc or a real, true carved turn. Because she doesn't really care if she ever does. It's up to her, but I don't think that she'd have the focus necessary for all the drills. She enjoyed the ESA even though she expected not to, but even there her focus wasn't on learning as much as just experiencing and enjoying.
post #642 of 653
SSH,

Your wife and my wife would clearly be in bliss together on the mountain. My wife has been skiing probably longer than I have. Slow and smooth with no thought other than same as a walk throught the woods. One nice family trip a year and she is all set.

She walked in the other day while I was digesting HH 2 dvd. She sat for a second and then said, what's he doing? I said working on balance, see that 1 ski drill(javelin turn) I said. My wife shot back why on earth would anyone ski around on 1 ski? I've never seen anything so dumb.....

Trust me it was best to just let it go......:

Kinda proves it ain't for everybody I guess. I figure if she's smiling on the hill it is all good. I finally presented her with shaped ski's this year(Volkl Gamma 320's) her skiing prowess increased dramatically as did her pace. She makes nice round turns with good technique. I'll be happy with that. She probably reflects my signature below more than I do....so it's good.
post #643 of 653
Lotsa wisdom there, my friend!
post #644 of 653
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
And what type of release do you think compliments a pivot?
Aerial.

L
post #645 of 653
Quote:
Originally Posted by hrstrat57
I am 100% with Pierre here. While I am disappointed that Harald has seen fit to wig out on the pmts forum again, I see no logic for responding here on epic in kind. I think this forum is above that.
I too wish to see that.

I don't know why it is important for the epic community to advertise for PMTS by posting this sort of "he is wrong" threads.

It should be clear by now that the intent for wigging out is to enable PMTS to reach the larger EpicSki audience.

The intrigue that is created can cause nothing but sales -- remember, there is no bad publicity. I bet that his sales show a spike every time he wigs out and gets responded to here....the man is a marketting genius.

That's my last post of any PMTS threads -- I won't work for PMTS.org.

Cheers!
post #646 of 653
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE
I too wish to see that.
Well alright then,,, I'll see what I can do about cleaning this place up a bit.
post #647 of 653
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE
I too wish to see that.

I don't know why it is important for the epic community to advertise for PMTS by posting this sort of "he is wrong" threads.

It should be clear by now that the intent for wigging out is to enable PMTS to reach the larger EpicSki audience.

The intrigue that is created can cause nothing but sales -- remember, there is no bad publicity. I bet that his sales show a spike every time he wigs out and gets responded to here....the man is a marketting genius.

That's my last post of any PMTS threads -- I won't work for PMTS.org.

Cheers!
Nice play big E!!

It's about skiing, not fighting!!!

I like your signature too....sorry I poached it a bit...no offense to the CSIA vids but I didn't want to detract too much from my main message
post #648 of 653
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh
It has more to do with whether or not the poster is a proponent of PMTS or not, onyxjl, which is why I don't post over there any more. I have a ton of questions, but don't have the time or inclination to post in a forum where I'm more likely than not going to get slammed or banned.
There you go. I've been banned. I guess I should have known better than to have posted there. Someone is clearly uninterested in answering sincere questions. I'm done with it.
post #649 of 653
At some point, continually asking exactly what is in the Kool Aid, how it is mixed, how much ice, what kind of pitcher, etc, gets tiresome. Even if you are sincere. Especially when all that information is readily available. Just take a big chug, and let us know how it tastes to you.
Or just be done with it, as you say.
post #650 of 653
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh
There you go. I've been banned. I guess I should have known better than to have posted there. Someone is clearly uninterested in answering sincere questions. I'm done with it.
SSH
I gotta agree with Miles. It is all available in print form or Internet. PMTS is not rocket science. It is just a different approach to making turns. Balance is the number one criteria and everything else falls into place.

Rick H
post #651 of 653
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick H
It is just a different approach to making turns. Balance is the number one criteria and everything else falls into place.
How's that different from anything else?
post #652 of 653
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE
How's that different from anything else?
It's not. However HH stresses it more than I have seen elsewhere. I am not advocating what HH does, one way or another.

Rick H
post #653 of 653
If there is one thing stressed by the CSIA it's balance; it's a waste of time to teach any other skill without first being in balance.
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