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PMTS: Cutting edge,,, NOT! - Page 15

post #421 of 653

more padding....

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoftSnowGuy
Moderator...
Any way to add one of two automatic lines to every posting?
(1) I've never tried PMTS, but I'm sure it's hogwash.
(2) I've tried PMTS and I found....
That will get us there for sure!
post #422 of 653
Quote:
Originally Posted by patprof66
I am well aware of the PMTS debate here--but find it interesting that I never hear a complaint from anyone who actually skis with these folks. By the way, I am a 66 year old former Psychology professor--and I don't "brainwash" easily. I sure know good skiing when I see it though.
Of course not. The people are skiing with the best PMTS has to offer. Try and go find some people who have skied with the PSIA D-Team, or even run-of-the-mill PSIA examiners and let us know about all the complaints you hear.

On the comment about knowing good skiing when you see it, there's awhole thread devoted to that, that occured a few weeks ago. I have serious doubts that someone who just returned to skiing after a 40 year hiatus has any idea what visual clues to look for which would constitute good skiing. I will agree that HH is a very good skier, though. Although I'd like to see him side-by-side with any of the current PSIA D-Team.
post #423 of 653
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoftSnowGuy
Moderator...
Any way to add one of two automatic lines to every posting?
(1) I've never tried PMTS, but I'm sure it's hogwash.
(2) I've tried PMTS and I found....


Ken
Only if the following get added too:

(3) I was skiing with a PSIA full cert who didn't know----
(4) The other guy was Board Certified-------

post #424 of 653
I like PMTS .
post #425 of 653
Quote:
Originally Posted by MilesB
I like PMTS .
I do too, it's given me some good moves. I suppose I might have learned the same moves elsewhere, but Harald has to get credit for introducing me to the ideas. And I REALLY like the balance emphasis.

and I just realized this: without Harb, PMTS, and "Anyone...." I never would have found EpicSki. and without John H and Pierre to help me see where I was brainwashed by PMTS, I never would have stuck around.
post #426 of 653
What I like about PMTS (from the little exposure I've had over the net) is they do a great job of cutting to the chase, without too much "extra". It's appealing in a zen sort of way.
post #427 of 653
Quote:
Originally Posted by uncle crud
and isn't K2 the official ski of the ESA?
Not exactly... Although they are the only ski equipment sponsor. (Not for lack of trying, believe me!)
Quote:
Originally Posted by uncle crud
oops. I'm not in the Marketing Dept am I?
Now, there's an idea! I've been looking for some help, you see...
post #428 of 653
Thread Starter 
Thought some of you PSIA guys who have been condemned for including rotary in your skiing and teaching would enjoy this. SoftSnowGuy posted this link in the other thread. It's of Harald Harb skiing, and in it he clearly displays usage of the very pre carve pivoting he so vehemently admonishes.

It's the very video that I made reference to when I was posing questions to HH on the Realskiers site about the legitimacy of his total condemnation of rotary. I received no response from HH about the pivoting he was doing in his video. What I did get was immediately banned from the site and all my posts deleted.

To see Harald Harb making nicely executed pivots, go to the link below and load the video titled; Harald Harb: Skiing Short Turns (3/15/05) He even has a slow motion segment, and in that segment his pivoting is clear as day. Enjoy!

http://www.web.pdx.edu/~petersj/Skills/Lessons.htm


So much for the anti rotary/pivoting marketing campaign. :
post #429 of 653
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max
Rick are you 100% certain that the rotary you are seeing is active rather than passive? Do you think there is a difference?
Sure is active, Max. HH can carve High C when he wants. Here he's choosing not to, but instead to pivot the skis at the top of the turn. These pivots change the direction of his skis at least 60 degrees before the new carve starts. Nothing passive about that. Totally intentional. Totally controlled.

For an example of better arc to arc (high C) carving, see the video above this one in your link.
post #430 of 653
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
Sure is active, Max. HH can carve High C when he wants. Here he's choosing not to, but instead to pivot the skis at the top of the turn. These pivots change the direction of his skis at least 60 degrees before the new carve starts. Nothing passive about that. Totally intentional. Totally controlled.

For an example of better arc to arc (high C) carving, see the video above this one in your link.
Could it be possible what you are seeing is caused by the tipping and counter movements he is using?
post #431 of 653
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
To see Harald Harb making nicely executed pivots, go to the link below and load the video titled; Harald Harb: Skiing Short Turns (3/15/05) He even has a slow motion segment, and in that segment his pivoting is clear as day. Enjoy!

http://www.web.pdx.edu/~petersj/Skills/Lessons.htm


So much for the anti rotary/pivoting marketing campaign. :
Now wait a minute Rick, it depends upon what IS is. If a blow job is not sex then this is not active rotary.

HH defines a lot of things narrowly that PSIA does not and that is what causes the anamosity. TTS to Harb is Snowplow with outside ski pressure transfer. To me it means Totally Taught Self.

You can and he is, initiating his turns with pressure and tipping without twisting the feet. He is also showing a slight rotation into the turn that he calls anticipation counter balance. He narrowly defines rotary as intentional twisting of the feet. PSIA does not. There is very clear active rotary by PSIA's definition but not by HH's definition.

What is good for Bill Clinton and the world is good enough for HH. In the context of PMTS I guess I can use his definition while still retaining understanding of PSIA's definition. I do not hold fast to anything including definitions so I can accept Harbs stuff.

Changes to definitions was one of his marketing campaigns but it alienated what should have been the biggest segment of his customers. The 97% of exisiting foot soldiers who were not absolutely married to PSIA.
post #432 of 653
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre
You can and he is, initiating his turns with pressure and tipping without twisting the feet. He is also showing a slight rotation into the turn that he calls anticipation counter balance. He narrowly defines rotary as intentional twisting of the feet. PSIA does not. There is very clear active rotary by PSIA's definition but not by HH's definition.
Well that's just a cop out then. I'm sorry. If your feet rotate, they rotate. If you intend to do it, it's active. Calling a rose a daisy doesn't make it so. What's funny about this is these turns are EXACTLY the ones I and other have said you HAVE to rotate your feet on in order to make them work (turns with smaller radii).

Rick's right, the move is there right at the transisition of the turn. Did somebody say something about a hammer and a nail?

I thought this tread was going to die, but I bet it makes it now....

L

EDIT: http://www.web.pdx.edu/~petersj/Skills/Videos/ULBC.wmv
Some body should tell Harold about the "2 min rule".... Talking for 11 mins 50 secs? My A.D.D. brain would have been dying if had I been in that clinic!

EDIT2: It also looks like that page has some video from one of the ESA's. Is that legal? Did they get permission?

http://www.websurd.com/epic2004/video/esa1.wmv (rob sogard)

http://www.websurd.com/epic2004/video/esa02.wmv (weems)
post #433 of 653
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie
Well that's just a cop out then. I'm sorry. If your feet rotate, they rotate.
??? It seems to me that in a "pure" carve your feet are still observed to rotate so this makes no sense for me. To me as a skier what I want to know is if I am supposed to actively apply a rotary torque to the ski or do I just tip them and let the mechanics of the ski/snow interaction bring them around (or some combination of the two).

That's why Harb's definition makes so much sense to me and what makes the use of the term rotary to refer to just about everything by many here (and in PSIA terminology as has been quoted here) confusing.
post #434 of 653
Very early on in my skiing (I learned via the Ski Like a Crazy Canuck System), even before I understood carving, I was able to distinguish between having the snow passing by skis grab the tipped edges and pivot the skis, and having me exert a twisting force on them around. With the old skis on hardpack, the snow wouldn't pivot them unless they were first slightly pivoted by me to displace the front edge; with the new shapely skis a tip will be sufficient.
post #435 of 653
Rick,

The pivoting that I see in the short turns clip is very slight and only in some turns not in others. Given the snow conditions, the skiing is impressive. The right turn at 16 seconds (frames 495-511) shows a pivot and a couple of frames of skidding in the fall line. This followed by a nice phantom turn to the left with no pivot. The next right turn (18 seconds frames 557-586) shows another slight pivot and 2 frames of skidding. You can see the skis hook up at the end of the turn, generating a great cross under move. The next left turn at 20 seconds (586-611) is a wonderful example of the PSIA vs PMTS terminology difference. I'd call it classic turning of the feet. But because it's accompanied by tipping, I can see what HH means when he says the feet turning is a byproduct of the tipping of the feet. The feet appear to rotate quickly, but it's still a clean turn.
post #436 of 653
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre
Now wait a minute Rick, it depends upon what IS is. If a blow job is not sex then this is not active rotary.

What is good for Bill Clinton and the world is good enough for HH.


No kiddin, I hear ya. That's all we need in skiing is Clintonisms. Where I cum from an orgasm is always an orgasm. And a pivot is always a pivot, no matter what silly double talk someone tries to use to cloud that fact.



Quote:
You can and he is, initiating his turns with pressure and tipping without twisting the feet.
I'm sure it's just a communication confusion issue here. I know that you understand that for skis to redirect grossly/aggressively away from the immediate direction of travel of the CM that a force must be applied to the skis which acts to quickly rotate (twist) them into that new directional orientation.

Different movement patterns can be utilized to create that rotational force, but it can't be denied that the rotational force has to exist for the skis to pivot. It's a force beyond which exists when carving, and a force that is fine tuned for intensity by the skier so as to create the exact amount of pivot desired.

Harb attempting to claim that rotational force doesn't exist in the turns he's making in his video is ridiculous to the point of stupidity.




Quote:
He is also showing a slight rotation into the turn that he calls anticipation counter balance. He narrowly defines rotary as intentional twisting of the feet.
That counter anticipation he's using is the very move that creates the rotary torque force that serves to twist the feet/skis into a pivot upon edge release from the prior turn. This is exactly how WC racers do it, how I do it, and how most every skilled PSIA instructor does it. He's doing nothing unique here.


Quote:
Changes to definitions was one of his marketing campaigns but it alienated what should have been the biggest segment of his customers. The 97% of exisiting foot soldiers who were not absolutely married to PSIA
At first I wondered if this guy could really be this dumb. I've since concluded he's not, and the alternative explanation leaves me even more disrespectful of the guy. Count me one of the 97 percent.
post #437 of 653
Quote:
Harb attempting to claim that rotational force doesn't exist in the turns he's making in his video is ridiculous to the point of stupidity.
I thought what he was claiming was that the primary move of lifting and tipping caused a secondary movement of turning of the feet. I have not interpreted his statements to mean that rotational forces do not exist. That is, once I got past the simplified "There ain't no rotary in PMTS" (sic). BTW - where is a direct quote from HH on this subject? It's been a while. When I went looking on the PMTS forum, I did not find anything after a 10 minute search.
post #438 of 653
Quote:
Originally Posted by therusty
I thought what he was claiming was that the primary move of lifting and tipping caused a secondary movement of turning of the feet. I have not interpreted his statements to mean that rotational forces do not exist. That IS, once I got past the simplified "There ain't no rotary in PMTS" (sic). BTW - WHERE IS a direct quote from HH on this subject? It's been a while. When I went looking on the PMTS forum, I did not find anything after a 10 minute search.
My point exactly. Rick are you sure you know what IS is? counter balance is not rotation of the feet cha know. I don't see how cum you can't just TASTE the kool aid eh!
post #439 of 653
Quote:
I thought what he was claiming was that the primary move of lifting and tipping caused a secondary movement of turning of the feet.
No. Lifting and tipping the new inside foot causes the body to fall to that side. That puts the new stance ski on edge. The ski on edge does the turning, not a muscular rotary movement of the leg intended to turn the ski.

In PMTS rotary movements of the leg are the effect of the turn, not the cause of the turn. Putting the ski on edge is the cause of the turn.

Try this in shoes or ski boots. Lift one foot. No big deal, you balance easily just like walking. Lift one foot and tip it toward the little toe edge. Make your self bowlegged tipping that foot. You fall to that side unless you make big rebalancing moves. If you don't make rebalancing moves, you fall to that side which puts the new stance ski on edge to make it turn you. It really is that simple.


Ken
post #440 of 653
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by therusty
I thought what he was claiming was that the primary move of lifting and tipping caused a secondary movement of turning of the feet.
Quote:
My point exactly. Rick are you sure you know what IS is? counter balance is not rotation of the feet cha know. I don't see how cum you can't just TASTE the kool aid eh!

Yes, amazing thing, that lift and tip move, aint it! Not only does it result in an arc to arc transition, with no redirection force being applied to the skis,,, the same move can also carry complete responsibility for a big 90 degree transitional pivot! Man, it's a freakin miracle move! :

Doesn't explain the big countered anticipation position he's using in his pivot video, though, does it? Hmmmm,,,, wonder why he's doing that if all the rotational pivot force needed can be generated by the miraculous lift and tip move?

And I wonder why that anticipation position mysteriously all but disappears in his arc to arc video? I'm sure it can't be that he was using the anticipation position to generate a force that facilitates the pivot, and that a rotary force generating anticipation position wasn't needed when he wasn't trying to pivot. Naaahhh,,, that can't be it. I mean,,, HH said all you need is the lift and tip,,,, and he'd neeeeverrrr lie to us!

Come on guys, this ain't quantum physics, it's just adding one and one together and coming up with two. Man, I never had to work so hard to convince people that grass is green and rain is wet.
post #441 of 653
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoftSnowGuy
No. Lifting and tipping the new inside foot causes the body to fall to that side. That puts the new stance ski on edge. The ski on edge does the turning, not a muscular rotary movement of the leg intended to turn the ski.

In PMTS rotary movements of the leg are the effect of the turn, not the cause of the turn. Putting the ski on edge is the cause of the turn.

turn you. It really is that simple.


Ken
Ken, what you're describing is a pure carve entry, with no pivot. This sounds like a total denial of the existence of a pivot in PMTS. That mimics the response I got drirectly from Harald over on his site. He didn't even try to explain an alternative means of producing the force that creates a pivot. Just flat said it wasn't a part of expert skiing.

Sorry, Rusty, you won't find evidence of this conversation I'm referring to. He's since deleted all trace of it.



Quote:
Try this in shoes or ski boots. Lift one foot. No big deal, you balance easily just like walking. Lift one foot and tip it toward the little toe edge. Make your self bowlegged tipping that foot. You fall to that side unless you make big rebalancing moves. If you don't make rebalancing moves, you fall to that side which puts the new stance ski on edge to make it
OK, I tried it. To lift a foot and balance on the other I have to move my CM toward the foot I'm balancing on. That's the negative CM move Barnes ragged on so about PMTS. Now,, if I tip the foot, I only tip over if I don't move my CM further toward the balance foot side to compensate for the mass that moves the other direction. So bottom line, I can tip if I choose, or I can remain in balance and upright if I choose to do that.

Now it's your turn. Stand as you were before, on both feet with weight equally distributed. Now, without moving you CM left or right, relax one leg. What happens? You immediately start to tip, don't you? No need to lift the foot (wasted energy and movement), no need to move the CM toward the ground foot to establish balance on it (wasted energy and movement), no need to tip the lifted foot to initiate the tipping of the whole body (more wasted energy and movement).

Doesn't that seem much simpler, and more movement efficient? Bye the way, it's called Outside Leg Relaxation (OLR).

The same simplified effect can be achieved through inside leg extension (ILE). Again, standing on both feet with weight even distributed, and without moving the CM left or right, very gently press down on your right foot till you feel pressure increase under that foot. Notice what happens? With almost no rise of the CM the body begins to tip. Purty dang simple, with only a minor increase in energy draw from OLR, but way less than that involved in lifting a foot of the snow, moving the CM uphill, and tipping a leg.
post #442 of 653
So, if I watch HH and BB ski, how radically different would they look? Do we have some pics? I'm serious; if epicski didn't obess about HH what would we all talk about? Please post a video or something for us non-instructor types so we can see the world of difference this all makes.

Rob
post #443 of 653
rick,

i admire your efforts, however, you might as well give up. they have seen the light, consumed the kool-aid, heard the gospel.

i just want to say one thing. i have seen the end product. i have seen the green certs. seeing is..........believing.
post #444 of 653
Quote:
Sorry, Rusty, you won't find evidence of this conversation I'm referring to. He's since deleted all trace of it.
Deleted huh? I guess "what happens in PMTS does not stay in PMTS"?

What about any references to "no rotary in PMTS"? Any of those left around?
post #445 of 653
Quote:
Originally Posted by rob
So, if I watch HH and BB ski, how radically different would they look? Do we have some pics? I'm serious; if epicski didn't obess about HH what would we all talk about? Please post a video or something for us non-instructor types so we can see the world of difference this all makes.

Rob
Heres Harb, Rob Sogard, and Weems. Maybe someone can supply video of Barnes. This vid is from Jay Peterson.
http://www.web.pdx.edu/~petersj/Skills/Lessons.htm

Rick,
Our point, of course, is not to remain vertical, but to tip to put the skis on edge. HH only lifts the inside ski as a drill or when one wishes to put more pressure on the outside ski to bend it more for a tighter turn..right?, double the weight on one ski puts more reverse camber into it. When skiing, he puts two continuous carve grooves into the snow. Lengthening the outside leg to cause the tipping has the problem that there is little or no remaining extension available in that leg for adding more pressure to the ski as the turn progresses. Retracting the inside leg, as you suggest, allows the somewhat bent outside leg to absorb bumps or extend to add pressure to the ski for tighter turns. Also, retracting the inside leg allows clearance for that ski on the snow when fully angulated. The racers show the inside boot near the outside knee with both skis carving. Tipping the inside foot to the little toe edge at the start of the turn gives me quicker, sharper turn initiations when that's what I want. I use the same movements in deep snow, and certainly can't lift one ski. The movements work well keeping the weight on the skis about 50-50.

Don't get hung up on who said what or what appears to contradict what. Give things an honest try. If they work, OK, and let us know. If the honest try doesn't work, let us know that.


Ken
post #446 of 653
SoftSnowGuy I have skied with both Weems and Rob Sogard and can tell you the moves between them and Harb in their fee skiing are essentially the same mechanics.

I think its a sham to compare a carefully choreographed video by HH designed to show dynamics to a amateur shot video in far less than ideal conditions of two fine instructors who are trying to over emphasis slowing down movements for the purpose of demonstration within the confines of a lesson. To use this for marketing purposes is less than honest and lends credibility to vendetta but marketing is not about reality, its about perception.

I think HH does very fine work and has a very fine system but he makes it very hard to defend him. I guess I just look at his as gee, that's HH.
post #447 of 653
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre
SoftSnowGuy I have skied with both Weems and Rob Sogard and can tell you the moves between them and Harb in their fee skiing are essentially the same mechanics.

I think its a sham to compare a carefully choreographed video by HH designed to show dynamics to a amateur shot video in far less than ideal conditions of two fine instructors who are trying to over emphasis slowing down movements for the purpose of demonstration within the confines of a lesson. To use this for marketing purposes is less than honest and lends credibility to vendetta but marketing is not about reality, its about perception.

I think HH does very fine work and has a very fine system but he makes it very hard to defend him. I guess I just look at his as gee, that's HH.
these folks aren't interested in honesty. harb's minions come to this website at the urging of their hero. in one case one of their devotees admitted to a group he was told to come here and raise a stir.

it's a great way for HH to drum up a little business.

why is it i cannot get an answer to my questions;

1) why isn't HH running a major ski school?

2) why isn't HH coaching at the WC level?

BTW HH refers to PSIA as TTS. Henceforth I suggest PMTS be referred to as PPS. Primary Puppet System.
post #448 of 653
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoftSnowGuy
Heres Harb, Rob Sogard, and Weems. Maybe someone can supply video of Barnes. This vid is from Jay Peterson.
http://www.web.pdx.edu/~petersj/Skills/Lessons.htm
Actually, no. Those links are to video that was produced by dchan at the EpicSki Academy in 2004.

Question: does anyone know what Rob and Weems were trying to do? I didn't think so. :
post #449 of 653
Quote:
I think its a sham to compare a carefully choreographed video by HH designed to show dynamics to a amateur shot video in far less than ideal conditions of two fine instructors who are trying to over emphasis slowing down movements for the purpose of demonstration within the confines of a lesson. To use this for marketing purposes is less than honest and lends credibility to vendetta but marketing is not about reality, its about perception.

I think HH does very fine work and has a very fine system but he makes it very hard to defend him. I guess I just look at his as gee, that's HH.
Reply With Quote
Harb didn't produce this video nor did he use it for promotion. If there are inaccurate spots, OK, you've identified those spots. I posted that video, not HH. Jay made the page, not HH. If Weems and Sogard are demonstrating particular technique and not skiing their best, OK. You've cleared that up.

As I've said to anyone and everyone, try things with an open mind. Rusty Guy demeans himself with his belittling remarks. If he has given PMTS techiques an honest and thorough try, and they didn't work for him, he is welcome to post the details of his trial with it. I've been instructed in the traditional systems and PMTS. PMTS works very well for me. I recommend an honest trial to anyone with an open mind. I'm nobody's puppet...make me a substantial offer, and I might become one, though. I got two things from Harb...training for much better skiing and a bill for his services. I feel that the training I received was well worth the bill. I ski much better now after four days of training and a few days of my practice than I did before. Most of my traditional training was in Canada. The Mrs. and I often spent a week there during Januarys in past years where 5 days of lessons were in the hotel & lift packages. I had some good and some mediocre instructors there, but none gave my skiing the big boost of Harb's system.


Ken
post #450 of 653
SSG, you're missing a significant point, and one that I addressed in a thread earlier this year: how do you know that you're skiing better?

I am grateful for your sake that you're enjoying skiing more and feeling that your skiing has improved. Has it, from an objective perspective? We don't know. Nor do we know if the improvement is due to PMTS in particular or just due to the changes that you made as a result of your interpretations and sensations.

Without objective expert analysis, skiing is very difficult to define or to judge. How people feel about their skiing, I have discovered, doesn't bear any correlation whatsoever with how well they ski. That's just the way it is.

Rusty Guy may be blunt, but his comments are honest. And relevant. If people are encouraged to come here to post about their experience and do so without mentioning that, I find it evidence of a lack of integrity. Frankly, a person's integrity is far more important to me than their knowledge; it's easy to find knowledgeable people. After all, an "expert" is just someone who knows more than me.
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