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PMTS: Cutting edge,,, NOT! - Page 12

post #331 of 653
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost
I can't believe that anyone can get accreditations from any ski instructor organization and not know how a ski works to cut a path through the snow when it is put on edge.
I don't know about the other organizations but a PSIA certified had better know this or the examiner that passed them should be shot.

It's not "stated" specifically in the manuals as far as "how a ski works" but knowledge of how a ski interacts with the snow is paramount to teaching someone to use their equipment. All the movements and skills taught will be reflected in their teaching and you can bet the examiners will be asking questions that will test your knowledge of how the equipment plays such an important part of our skiing. Including how to teach that person that just walked in with old straight skis and rear entry boots!
post #332 of 653
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wear The Fox Hat
Well, I'm going to have to call you on that one!

What exactly did Bode say?
That PMTS is about learning movements.
What did you quote?
That PMTS is about teaching movements.

So, you both agree there. (although I would argue that "learning" is student based, and "teaching" is all centred on the teacher)


Bode says that PMTS does not teach balance,
you quote that PMTS teaches movements that develop balance.
HH doesn't say in the quote you gave above that PMTS teaches balance, he says that he teaches movements.

Can't you read?

Thanks for playing!
Actually, I'll raise you both. What I tried to say was that PMTS is successful to the extent that its exercises teach balance. All the talk about teaching movements is a waste of time. Since that's all HH seems to talk about (when he's not bashing TTS), PMTS fails as a theoretical system, but it nevertheless does get good results with relatively new skiers.
There are not enough years left in your life to learn and practice all the specific movements you might use in skiing, but if you learn how to balance, and how movement affects balance, an infinite variety of movements become available to you.

BK
post #333 of 653
Quote:
Originally Posted by dchan
I don't know about the other organizations but a PSIA certified had better know this or the examiner that passed them should be shot.

It's not "stated" specifically in the manuals as far as "how a ski works" but knowledge of how a ski interacts with the snow is paramount to teaching someone to use their equipment. All the movements and skills taught will be reflected in their teaching and you can bet the examiners will be asking questions that will test your knowledge of how the equipment plays such an important part of our skiing. Including how to teach that person that just walked in with old straight skis and rear entry boots!
The Alpine manual talks about this specifically in the edging skills section.
post #334 of 653
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost
but my experience is that people who want to learn are going to be carving turns pretty soon no matter what "system" they learned on.
Ding, ding, ding, ding! We have a winnah!!!!!
post #335 of 653
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsather
You know I'm not exactly sure what order things happened. But I'm pretty sure the skis came a year or so before the book. The Four probably didn't help my turns so much as they opened up more terrain (read crud) for me. I think at the time the shapes were still considered "cheaters" and unworthy of Real Men so I don't think lessons were all that shape-specific then. I think it took a while for the instructors to figure these babies out, too.

As far as the book goes, it was just one of many I had. As with all the others, it made big promises. But man, all those drills ... I figured they must all be for newbies so I skipped 'em and tried to pick out some real meat. The tipping is what worked, but not because I was doing it the PMTS way. Only later did I come to realize the real wisdom in those "newbie" drills. I'm in the middle of back-tracking, now.

I don't really learn all that well by observation; I've got to sit down and internalize it. So it's not koolaid, Harb just speaks to my kind of person better than other authors. Exactly what all you guys are preaching: matching the needs of the student.
Just to be clear then, what you did is no different from what a modern PSIA instructor would teach you, except that they would have gotten you there faster with a bit of concentrated work (as dchan notes). If it works for you, great! Just don't stop there, keep learning from him and from others!
post #336 of 653
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie
If you REALLY want to get good at skiing, quit your job and put in a (few) 100 day season(s). It will happen.....

L
Lonnie's right, there's no substitute for mileage. Adults teach themselves too, it just takes longer than it does for kids.
post #337 of 653
Fox, I think what HH means by 'Brushed Carve' is what we would call a Scarve.

....Ott
post #338 of 653
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bode Klammer
I have to disagree with that. All skiing movements are simple, intuitive and natural. Even at the World Cup level, the required movements are simple, even if they are taken to an extreme that requires strength or flexibilty that most of don't have. The only "unnatural" things about skiing is that you slide instead of stepping, and that you need to manage large dynamic forces. Both of those things are fairly uncommon in daily experience.
The error of PMTS (as a theoretical system) is that it focuses on learning MOVEMENTS, rather than learning BALANCE. PMTS succeeds because it uses excercises that develop balance, or that can't be performed without developing balance, even though all they talk about is movement. In that way it is no different form any othe rski instruction. PMTS is limited because it allows only certain movements, and because of that they don't use excercises like sideslips, bracquage or pivot slips that develop balance and independent application of skills.

BK
You know I put this statement
Quote:
To clarify what I mean by "unnatural" I mean a movment pattern that is fairly unique to skiing and not to everyday things we all do and therefore unlikely to be discovered by chance.
into my post to try to avoid a post like this. Defensive skills are intuitive. Not all good skiing movement patterns are intutive. If they were intuitive then no one would need instruction.

Your knowledge of PMTS is limited.
post #339 of 653
What goes around comes around:

six years ago Gonzo Uncle Crud was a kool aid drinker and I was dead set against Harb and anything that questioned PSIA.
post #340 of 653
Well...I don't agree that most folks will learn good skiing with enough mileage on the hill. Yes, mileage is important, but repeating and practicing the correct movements is essential. I'm an example. I've never been a jock. I'm terrible at basketball, baseball, etc., etc. I can't dance. I'm clumsy. The level of skiing I've attained is the best I've been at any sport, and I'm not that good. I can get down just about everything, but don't enjoy the tougher stuff, and sure don't look good doing it.

I need instruction to get better. I don't have a good image of what my body is doing while it's happening (maybe other folks do better and I do worse?). There is no point in me repeating the same errors over and over and over.

Harb's routine is a huge help for me. It feels good, it feels natural, and it works. The same ski techniques with very small modifications work for all snow and terrain. The techniques are simple. With enough repetitions, even I ski very well using that routine. I haven't practiced enough yet to ski correctly every turn, but I'm getting better. When I hit the turns as I was taught, they feel great.

I glanced at the Level III PSIA-RM study guide. It is not as much help for me as Harb's PMTS Direct Parallel Instructor Manual. The PSIA book does not seem as simple, clear cut, nor as well illustrated as the PMTS book. Looking at many of the photos in the PSIA book, I can't see what the skier is trying to illustrate. In the PMTS book, I read, "As the feet pass the crest of the bump, the skis are rolling to the new set of edges. The effort to pull the feet back with the hamstrings presses the tips down into the mini-slope, or downhill face of the bump. The inside ski quickly tips toward the little-toe edge, and the stance leg lengthens to maintain contact with the snow. The skier is balanced and making the correct movements to engage the sidecut of the ski on the mini-slop, creating a turn and controlling speed. As the ski tips enter the trough of the mogul, where the mini-slope and the flat or uphill slope of the next bump meet, the legs should be ready to flex and absorb." (PMTS Direct Parallel Instructor Manual, pg. Bk-6)

Is this cutting edge? Is this the very best way to ski? Beats me. All I know for sure is that I can see myself and feel myself following those instructions. When I try those movements on the hill they work very well for me. The photos in this book are montages where each movement is clear to see and clearly described.

Can balance be taught?...I don't think so. Exactly what is balance?..."An organ in our inner ear, the labyrinth, is an important part of our vestibular (balance) system. The labyrinth interacts with other systems in the body, such as the visual (eyes) and skeletal (bones and joints) systems, to maintain the body's position. These systems, along with the brain and the nervous system, can be the source of balance problems.

"Three structures of the labyrinth, the semicircular canals, let us know when we are in a rotary (circular) motion. The semicircular canals, the superior, posterior, and horizontal, are fluid-filled. Motion of the fluid tells us if we are moving. The semicircular canals and the visual and skeletal systems have specific functions that determine an individual's orientation. The vestibule is the region of the inner ear where the semicircular canals converge, close to the cochlea (the hearing organ). The vestibular system works with the visual system to keep objects in focus when the head is moving. Joint and muscle receptors also are important in maintaining balance. The brain receives, interprets, and processes the information from these systems that control our balance." http://www.nidcd.nih.gov/health/bala...isorders.asp#b

Balancing motions are actuated by the small muscles in the body. Excercises can be taught which can improve the functioning of these muscles...I've been doing alternate dumbell lifts while standing on inflated balance discs. Harb's books show some simple balance excercises using cheap homemade devices. Harb's routine for skiing with the feet horizontally close together requires balance, and more of that skiing will improve balance. Skiing with a wide track does less to improve balance.

Keep an open mind, give any ski system a good trial, and have fun. I like PMTS. I urge others to give it an honest, thorough trial and see if you also ski better sooner.


Ken
post #341 of 653
While those balancing mechanisms of our body may be innate, their application as balancing in a skillful manner is not, and must be learned.

This is self-evident by the fact that kids fall a lot while learning to walk but seldom once they learn to.

Experts fall down less than beginners in sports like skiing, snowboarding, skating, tight-rope walking, wind surfing, surfing, uni-cycling, just to name a few.

Those innate balancing mechanisms must be applied through practice to acquire specific balancing skills relative to activities that are balancing dependant.

As such I'd suggest that for all practical purposes the skill of balancing can be taught, learned, and improved beyond what the raw mechanisms can do without practice.

In our sport of skiing we specifically train to improve our skills of balancing (fore/aft balancing, lateral balancing, one or two foot balancing, balancing on any one or two of our four edges, etc.). Improved balancing skills are a great enabler, lack of them is a great inhibitor. Those who work to further refine their balancing skills will find that they can aquire other skiing movements and skills more easily and apply them with more efficiency and adaptability as well.
post #342 of 653
amen, Arcmeister.
post #343 of 653
Thread Starter 
Nicely written Arc. And oh so true.
post #344 of 653
Fox
Brushed Carve = Four Wheel Drift
Skid = Oversteer
Sitting Back = Understeer
Does that help?
post #345 of 653
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoftSnowGuy
I glanced at the Level III PSIA-RM study guide. It is not as much help for me as Harb's PMTS Direct Parallel Instructor Manual. The PSIA book does not seem as simple, clear cut, nor as well illustrated as the PMTS book. Looking at many of the photos in the PSIA book, I can't see what the skier is trying to illustrate. In the PMTS book, I read, "As the feet pass the crest of the bump, the skis are rolling to the new set of edges. The effort to pull the feet back with the hamstrings presses the tips down into the mini-slope, or downhill face of the bump. The inside ski quickly tips toward the little-toe edge, and the stance leg lengthens to maintain contact with the snow. The skier is balanced and making the correct movements to engage the sidecut of the ski on the mini-slop, creating a turn and controlling speed. As the ski tips enter the trough of the mogul, where the mini-slope and the flat or uphill slope of the next bump meet, the legs should be ready to flex and absorb." (PMTS Direct Parallel Instructor Manual, pg. Bk-6)
Keep in mind that the study guides and alpine manuals from PSIA are not designed to teach someone to ski or teach someone how to teach. They are reference manuals with examples. On hill training and experience will produce the best instructors. The study guides are just that. Study guides for the exams and general knowledge.

PMTS or any other structured program in a "teach yourself to ski" book will advance you quickly if you follow the instructions exactly. But it's also probably very boring. Most people find just doing exercises very boring and lose interest very quickly. If it worked for you great and keep it up. Just don't let it build a box around your learning and keep an open mind.
post #346 of 653

An Outsider's POV

First of all, I am an outsider. I was a certified PSIA Instructor way back in '73 - '74, so I am in no way an authority on the current methodology from level 1 to 8, 9 or whatever.

Yes, I'm a USSA Level 200 coach but I have my own independent group of coaches and we teach a different approach to fundamental. I'll get into why we developed our methodology to make another point in a moment.

I am not an expert on PMTS. I have read posts up on RS and many of the posts up here. We have the books but have not had the time yet to delve into them in great detail.

Why we, the MSRT developed our own methodology is because we all looked at the huge NASTAR market and realized that the USSA Quadrennial program simply will not teach the skills our racers need to quickly and correctly impact their racing based on our analysis of modern ski racing technique. Our racers, unlike juniors at the club level, only have 2 hours and maybe once a year 2 days to devote to their pursuit of the skills that will enable them to simply go faster and ultimately ski better, generally.

Based on my limited understanding HH looked at WC skiers. Analyzed their movements and more importantly how they utilized the new equipment (shaped skis) by how they stood on those skis and moved on those skis.

That is precisely what we did and we saw that we could teach basic skills, posture and movement patterns that would allow the intermediate skier to make carved turns. Have we ever thought this was the only skill our racers needed in their bag of tricks, never. But we knew if we could teach edging skills that other skills would easily be acquired as their movements, balance and improvisation in all different situations would be enhanced. We have found this to be true without exception.

Is it that HH looked at the same thing and thought that there was a more direct way to teach skiers to use their equipment more efficiently early on in their development. If so, its the same exact objective we have.

We have found that if we take, say an intermediate level skier, teach them how to stand, move, utilize the design of their skis that their entire alignment changes and that they become better balanced while learning the dynamics of edge control progressively as each day goes by. We've found that the more they take to the course and have to turn on demand the more rapidly that their edge control skills develop.

We've found with proper alignment, posture and correct sequence of movement while learning how to tip the skis the skier naturally learns how to adjust edge angle to skid a turn if necessary and to carve it when they can. We don't have to teach them how to perform a feathered skidded turn (a contact skid as we call it) as they have learned how to apply progressive edge angles or release them naturally. The key is that they are using their bodies correctly. Something is clearly working from our approach, again we collect data on all our students so we can verify improvement through faster times which is better edge control that leads to better tactics and so on.

So has HH looked at WC skiers, realizing that they are most probably not only the best racers but some of the best all around skiers in the world? Analyzed their technique as we have and developed a system that teaches the basic or fundamental skills the leads to an approximation of what these skier do? If so, that is a good thing as long as it doesn't restrict the skiers ability to continually add to their skill base and I don't know why it would.

Yeah, I've read stuff that just doesn't stack up for me (such as the issues with Rotary movements) but this can be either new converts to his ranks who really don't have full understanding of high level skiing or perhaps simply semantic issues. Don't know. When I have time to delve into the books it will become clear if there are dead end technical glitches or whether the "Primary Movements" align with what my group of international coaches recognize as modern ski movements. Hey, I may even learn something

On the other hand the PSIA serves a particular need and market. One poster observed skiers lacking skills from the chair lift and blamed this on the PSIA system. This was surely not a fair assessment of why there are so many low level skiers making "unnatural" movements. PSIA recognizes that there are folks out there that want to come to a mountain, get in a class, learn how to put on their skis, move around, get on and off the chair lift, navigate beginner terrain and have fun. A lot of these clients aren't top notch athletes and a lot of them may only ski once or twice a year, for the rest of their skiing futures. Whether or not these skiers every go back to ski school, have the time to devote to more classes or even care to is not the fault of PSIA. If they ever come back and ski again the PSIA instructor has basically done his/her job. I believe a lot of the skier we see sitting in the back seat, skiing with their feet glued together, moving their hips laterally with no contact on the front of their boots are not PSIA students at all but self taught skiers or relics from days gone by and never bothered to get current.

For the few folks who are so inclined that they wish to become "Expert" skiers systems such as PMTS or MSRT may be good alternatives to help these skier accelerate their learning curve based on their desire, time and athletic ability and depending what they want to do. The MSRT for example is all about racing while PMTS has a broader focus.

To wrap this up, that fact that there are coaches or instructors out there that think outside of the box and try to offer more condensed, faster progressions to get to what is perceived by most as higher level skill sets is a good thing. It is important that these systems offer alternatives that will enhance the skier ability to acquire a vast array of skill sets and not be limiting based on faulty applications or dated ideas. They must be current and work well with modern equipment. They must also support the skier's ability to advance their development outside of the system, on their own based on the tools the system provides them.

I believe PSIA does a great job dealing with the beginning to intermediate skier. I am sure their are tons top notch PSIA instructors that can provide any level instruction/program for the higher level skier (with ski racing being the possible exception as it is so specialized, not saying that there are not PSIA instructors that cannot coach racers, its just not that common).

I believe that having alternative independent systems for those who want to accelerate acquiring their skill base for specific applications, whether that be all mountain to bumps to ski racing having the ability to seek out the ESA Academy, MSRT or PMTS provides more resources to the skiing community. This can only be a good thing. Putting degrading labels on this system or that system without a full comprehension of all the system encompasses is a bad thing.

SSH taught me something important recently and I deserved it. Tolerance leads to an open mind and with an open mind one can learn something or gain insight from all manner of sources. Intolerance destroys opportunities to learn new things.

That said, I am not endorsing anything. I am on the outside looking in and as I said, not an authority on current PSIA methodology or PMTS, I'm just trying to keep an open mind as well as an open eye to ever evolving ski technique and working on ways to bring better skiing faster to more skiers.

Just an outsider's point of view,,,,
post #347 of 653
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcmeister
This is self-evident by the fact that kids fall a lot while learning to walk but seldom once they learn to.
until they learn to drink.

Quote:
Those innate balancing mechanisms must be applied through practice to acquire specific balancing skills relative to activities that are balancing dependant.
and must be maintained through practice or else they will deteriorate
(After my dad hit 70, he found that skiing a dozen days per year was not enough. He now uses a balance disc at home.)

As teachers, we can either choose to demand a minimal level of balance from our students and teach only that until that level is reached
OR
deal with a suboptimal level of balance as best we can and focus on ways to let students have more fun on the slopes.

Given a limited amount of time and an expectation of results what would you do? It appears that one beauty of PMTS is that it's not sold in one hour form. But what are all of the PMTS certified pros doing at their non-PMTS home mountain when a guest requests a PMTS lesson? Do they cancel the lesson if the boots are not aligned properly? Will they spend the entire lesson on balance drills if their student has never been off the couch before? What is cutting edge here?

I propose that the majority of non-serious (5 days/year) recreational skiers would rather ski to improve their balance than practice balancing to improve their skiing. Anyone who plunks down cash for a multi day camp has just made a serious commitment to improving their skiing. PSIA says to teach the lesson that the guest wants. What does PMTS say?
post #348 of 653
Quote:
Originally Posted by therusty
I propose that the majority of non-serious (5 days/year) recreational skiers would rather ski to improve their balance than practice balancing to improve their skiing. Anyone who plunks down cash for a multi day camp has just made a serious commitment to improving their skiing. PSIA says to teach the lesson that the guest wants. What does PMTS say?
I have had more than one student who said "The last instructor I had tried to make me ski on one foot. If you do that I am going to walk". This would include the VP of the company my wife works for.
post #349 of 653
Gary Dranow
post #350 of 653
Two general comments:

1) A lot of people come in from the outside and claim to like PMTS better than PSIA. This actually makes sense because PMTS is marketed to the general skiing public. PSIA's customers are not the general skiing public, but ski instructors. PSIA trains instructors to teach skiing. They train instructors to be versatile and work with anyone they may encounter in a lesson. PMTS gives the GP a progression to learn to ski that any PSIA instructor could also give. The difference is that the instructor knows what to do if you don't get it from that one progression. HH is banking on the fact that you'll buy his lesson (buy his books/videos) as opposed to buying a lesson from an instructor. Then, if he's really lucky, the consumer/student will learn something and then think "hey this worked. I want to get better, I should take a lesson from a PMTS instructor". However, if the student/consumer doesn't get it, they're screwed. But he won't run into that situation a whole lot because all those hard to teach, non athletic students that show up by the busload at the mountain for a regular lesson are not likely to buy his material and try to teach themselves. All of those people that are very willing students and athletic, and show up on the mountain for a lesson will learn just as fast or faster from their PSIA instructor than they would from PMTS. Not only is it faster on the hill, but they also didn't need to spend X# of hours reading HH's material.

2) This whole conversation/argument is absurd. bsather obviously has a hidden agenda. He admitted it in a post sometime between Tuesday evening and Wednesday, when he said (loose quote, as I don't remember it exactly and don't feel like wading through all the crap to find it) "I'm not going to show all my cards just yet". I think this is just a very successful fishing expedition on bsather's part. Congrats. You reeled in a massive load!

-John (flopping around on the deck of the Miss BSATHER)
post #351 of 653

last word?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dchan
Keep in mind that the study guides and alpine manuals from PSIA are not designed to teach someone to ski or teach someone how to teach. They are reference manuals with examples. On hill training and experience will produce the best instructors. The study guides are just that. Study guides for the exams and general knowledge.

PMTS or any other structured program in a "teach yourself to ski" book will advance you quickly if you follow the instructions exactly. But it's also probably very boring. Most people find just doing exercises very boring and lose interest very quickly. If it worked for you great and keep it up. Just don't let it build a box around your learning and keep an open mind.
This is my first, only and last comment regarding the dogma war between PMTS/PSIA. This post by DCHAN and the subsequent very heartfelt post which followed from Gary Dranow could serve as the last word. In summary it is all good. Keep an open mind take what works for you and throw out the rest.

I was an insider at one point. As obsessed as I was with PSIA centerline and later ATS I never turned away from an opportunity to try a new idea. Often the new idea turn out to be a differently worded old idea. That actually IMO is the heart of it. What is the difference between describing little toe edge and letting the air out of the downhill ski? Subtle difference sure, but each trick can achieve the same goal. As an instructor (yes PSIA) I had to throw out the dogma and come out with a description of what worked for each student. The bag of tricks learned from centerline and ATS came in handy for sure. But I mixed and matched em to each student based on M/A and equally important, each students interests, strength and personality coupled with what they wanted to achieve. I applied this approach to my own development as a skier. All the PSIA clinics (90's)I took were taught by examiners. Each clinic focused on the same student centered(me) approach. There was no right way. It was all about what worked. It is clear from reading the posts on Eastern academy that Stu, Mike and Jeb retain the student centered approach.

Will I explore PMTS? Sure. Will I refer to PSIA material? Youbetcha. Did I devour the video of the Italian Demo team? Have I watched video of HH ski? Did I watch the video Gary provided of Rocca for hours? Of course!

Epicski is wonderful, and I would not be conquering the new technology without the help of my epic friends and all the resources and ideas I have found here. My skiing and experience on the mountain has been transformed. I am very grateful.

This thread started out as aThanks to some thoughtful posts in this thread, I am hopeful peace is at hand.

Or I can go back to ignoring it and subsequent negativity......and just quietly keep learning from everyone.

One observation tho.....the holy trilogy (pressure, edging and rotary)? I need a lot less rotary to ski well on the 168 Allstar vs last years P40 Platinum. I'm sure it's there as I was trained in the holy 3, but tipping and edging and pressure dominate.....

As least that's what I am feeling....as I lurk on realskiers a lot of what I am feeling as a result of my self instruction is precisely HH's primary point. That I do find interesting.

Which brings me back to the purpose and point of my one time ramble...

It is all good, and how I learn and ski is up to me. No need to join any movements or cults. It is all about my smiles!! Perhaps yours too!:

Back to my signature below mode.
post #352 of 653
thanks, hrstrat57.
post #353 of 653
The last few posts are a wonderfull, refreshing return to civil and thoughtful discourse. They out to be moved out and brought to the head of a new thread.

As far as the state of ski instruction goes, first, I blame the mountains for looking at it as just another profit center and for not taking it or its employed instructors seriously. But I also blame the PSIA as an organization for not carrying the fight to the mountains. They ought to be developing the programs and the marketing to show why solid, continuing ski instruction is good for the industry. And some blame has to go to the instructors, not for their work, but for being ineffective in making both the PSIA and the mountains move to make things better.

As far as the differences between the manuals go: Harb seems to write not only to teach but to inform. He trys to show why you are doing a drill, what you are trying to achieve, and how the skill integrates higher up. The instructor's manual is a far richer document than just a description of tasks and drills. Sometimes it's hard to believe that such as thoughtful and insightful writer also has that evil-Harb twin!

Slatz, the driving analogy: excellant.

Gary: it does seem from a real outsider like myself view that you and HH have a lot in common.

Sno: I've just discovered those inflated half-disks, too. Haven't tried using the weights with it yet, just single foot balancing. Really powers up those tipping muscles. ... from a fellow non-jock.
post #354 of 653
An issue that I have that is real, and thoughtful, is the issue that "perception is not reality". This is something that skiers everywhere have been trying to deal with forever --eg. "But I AM flexing!!!"

What I try to do, and what many PSIA instructors (at least here) are trying to do is to provide the student with a "concrete" experience. That includes the ability for the student to see, feel, and think about what they have been doing; the ability to align perception and reality....

It is critical to mention that this "feeling" of skiing well is really where the rubber meets the road. It is the only way that you'll tell good skiing by yourself.

PMTS discards this feedback, and relies solely on the eyes of others to tell you that you are doing it properly. It is up to you to remember the feelings, but PMTS will NOT tell you how it ought to feel. It is against their teaching methods, because according to PMTS it is an error prone way of instruction.

IMO, that means skill acquisition is by friction: do the drills and pay attention. And come back later, to make sure you are still doing it right....
post #355 of 653
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnH
[color=black] bsather obviously has a hidden agenda.
Nothing so dramatic, JohnH. There's just a couple of things I'm been peripherally involved in that would make the conversation unnecessarily clumsy.

My hidden agenda is the plight of the older skier, whom I believe to be the heart and soul of skiing, not as a sport, but a lifestyle. I don't think the skills, as currently taught, carry out to people with lessor strength and flexibility. Here's where I think PMTS offers a "lower load" for skiing. Too often, I've seen fellow skiers have to restrict, or worse, give up the sport because the way they ski doesn't work with the body they now have. The root PMTS moves do seem to be a kinder and gentler way on the old bod'.

So my agenda is to keep the turns coming for me and my friends. Maybe other programs work, too, but this one can be counted on.
post #356 of 653
sorry sather, I retract my wishes. you have issues with a need for secret knowledge and superiority.

you enjoy manipulating others, which is disturbing. but Harb is a manipulator. peas in a pod?

my new wish is that you become more of a human, and less of an ass.
post #357 of 653
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE

PMTS discards this feedback, and relies solely on the eyes of others to tell you that you are doing it properly. It is up to you to remember the feelings, but PMTS will NOT tell you how it ought to feel. It is against their teaching methods, because according to PMTS it is an error prone way of instruction.
... I guess this marks the end of the civil and thoughtful discussion. We now return you to our regularly scheduled food fight!

Sorry, BigE, I just couldn't resist that.

I hope you're not trying to tell me PSIA is somehow the "touchy-feelly" Zen way to ski while HH should be renaming his camps "boot camps" ... or concentration camps! Come on, there are legitimate ways to compare and contrast these systems without resorting to that kind of argument

Why everyone knows that HH is one of the most feeling guys in the world ... and if you don't believe that, go over to RS where he'll be glad to share his feelings with you ... sorry HH, couldn't resist that, either.
post #358 of 653
I guessed 385 didn't I???

L
post #359 of 653

damn

beat me to it, Lonnie.
post #360 of 653
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE
PMTS discards this feedback, and relies solely on the eyes of others to tell you that you are doing it properly. It is up to you to remember the feelings, but PMTS will NOT tell you how it ought to feel. It is against their teaching methods, because according to PMTS it is an error prone way of instruction.
This is a wild pitch.
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