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Is this ILE?

post #1 of 22
Thread Starter 
See the first burst sequence here:

I vote no.
post #2 of 22
I agree... but then I am horrid as any visual stuff....Let me FEEL it dammit!
post #3 of 22
BigE, what do you see that causes you to formulate your opinion?
post #4 of 22
What is ILE?
post #5 of 22
well between frames 5 and 6 his outside leg flexes but his inside one does not appear to extend at all....until frame 7
post #6 of 22
Originally Posted by TomB
What is ILE?
Inside Leg Extension... type of turn transition
post #7 of 22
Thanks disski for the reminder. All these acronyms are too much.

Please somebody tell me that ILE is just another term for cross-over. After all, is there any doubt that a cross over starts with an inside leg extension at the end of the old turn to initiate a new turn?

As for the burst sequence posted by BigE - I see no reason to suspect that it is not ILE. Sure looks like an up-and-over move between 6 & 7.
post #8 of 22
No not "just crossover".....

ummmm - 2 tthreads going atm
1)on ILE & OLL

2) I forget..... rusty & ssh & Big E & rick & gary dranow are the posters.... with a few others
post #9 of 22
I'm going to stick with old terminology, but I think ILE = Crossover, vs crossunder?

I would agree that this is not crossover, but crossunder. How can I tell? In frames 8 & 9, his legs are longer than they are in frames 6 & 7. It's mor obvious in the bottom set of frames. In frame 5 he's on flat skis with a low stance, then in frome 6, when he's on his new turning edges, his legs are lengthening.
post #10 of 22
Originally Posted by TomB
Thanks disski for the reminder. All these acronyms are too much.

Please somebody tell me that ILE is just another term for cross-over. After all, is there any doubt that a cross over starts with an inside leg extension at the end of the old turn to initiate a new turn?

As for the burst sequence posted by BigE - I see no reason to suspect that it is not ILE. Sure looks like an up-and-over move between 6 & 7.

If I go "pop" (???up & over???) then I did not do the ILE right....

Done right I extend from the outside edge of inside ski during(start before ski flat) transition... this extension is into next turn...

hence girl instructor & I say "extend FROM outside edge of inside ski"

It FEELS connected to snow - not like hucking over the top or dropping outside leg & "falling" down hill at all... I just stay connected
post #11 of 22
Thread Starter 
If I understand ILE, the inside leg should extend very slightly to transfer the balance point, and from there, continue to extend as the CM moves downhill. The CM has not moved downhill enough to warrant the extension in frame 7.

The significant amount of extension that is shown results in the uphill movement of the CM at neutral (Frame 7) occurring prior to the edge change.

Bottom line, is that amount of extension is occuring too early.
post #12 of 22
YEAH that is it...

he is skiing like my canadian instructor doing demos... not like him when he SKIS!

Canadian "Bobbing" going on....
post #13 of 22
Big E

can you tell me about his hips please?
post #14 of 22
Thread Starter 
Note that in frames 2 and 3, he is not extending into the turn: he is flexing on entry to the turn. His hips have moved back, and there is no evidence of counter, as the ski tips remain parallel through the turn.

In frame three, he is almost as low as frame 5. Then in frame 6, he appears to be simply standing up to get back into neutral. If you follow the sequence to the next page, it looks again, like the hips move back with respect to the feet as he gets deeper into the turn.

This is caused by using angulation only to increase his edge angles to tighten the turn. He does not extend into the control phase as that would also illustrate tightening of the turn by increasing the loading of the skis.

Well, that's just what I see....
post #15 of 22
control phase? sorry I don't understand that bit?

Yes he seemed "back" hips did not seem over ankle as I am taught.... his also seem not to rotate... & then suddenly they are the other way????
post #16 of 22
Thread Starter 
The control phase is between initiation and completion -- it's the "belly" of the turn.

As to the hips changing direction, I just see him as being very square to the skis.
post #17 of 22
but look at space between legs in 6 & 11.....

to do that he needs tip lead yes? & for tip lead he needs hip lead yes? but the hips seem to "suddenly" swap over... or is that me seeing it wrongly.... there does not appear to be a "hip neutral"(??? should there be?)

like in 9 the hip farthest from me seems behind but by 11 ahead.... so he has "hucked" hip forward between those 2....

Do i see it wrong? Do i understand it wrong?
post #18 of 22
I think you guys are imagining some of the stuff. I can see how one can reach the conclusion that this is not "text-book" ILE, but I still say it is most likely a garden variety cross-over move.

And disski, cross-over does not mean there is a "pop".
post #19 of 22
I think cross-over & cross-under get confused most of the time... sure do confuse me.... i understood them simply to be the difference between CM crossing over skis or skis crossing under CM... So a "cross-over" could be all sorts of transitions/turns yes?

What is an extension/retraction(??the ones where you transition short & extend) turn in a long radius?? cross-over or under?

but as most people describe it - what I would feel in a cross-over turn is a bit of a "pop" from the snow - a disconnect... or else a "float" - still a disconnect ... or a "fall downhill" still a disconnect

while in ILE I feel connected & secure...

I dunno just feel different to me...
post #20 of 22
I don't think the top skier, Jeff, is using ILE in the sense that Rick describes it because he never releases the turn via flexion of the outside leg. He is definitely extending his inside leg a great deal though. Look at the length of his outside leg through out the turn and his inside leg through the turn. The outside leg is pretty much the same length through the whole turn. Also notice the big upward movement of his CM through transition as a result.

As an aside, this is the same transition I see Heluva using in the clips he posted.

Skier number two, Vincent, could be using ILE, maybe not, its about impossible to tell if he initiates the movement from his inside leg or not because of the static photos. This skier, however, is retracting his outside leg through transition. The length of his inside leg stays more or less constant from the fall line through transition. Notice that he does not have the upward movement of his CM.

The thing of I am not clear on totally in ILE is if the the inside leg just extends a little bit from release to transition of it it is supposed to extend a lot. From Rick's description it sounds like just a little which would have to be the case to not get a significant upward CM redirection.
post #21 of 22

the way I understand it you extend just a bit at initiation but then the extension continues as needed to maintain snow contact.... it is an extension because the skis travel apart from you...
Likewise outside leg flexes as needed to control how fast you wanna fall downhill.... for me that is quite gentle...
post #22 of 22
Thread Starter 
My dirty summary:

The upper skier is providing us with a demonstration that is void of any of the subleties that we are discussing here. It appears that the intent of the skiing is to show how the turn radius is affected through the use of inclination and angulation. Many useful techniques have been left out of this skiing to focus on inclination and angulation.

Throughout, note the legs move in unison, not in sequence.

After initiating using inclination:

No initial steering angle.

There is no counter, counter-balance or affected position.

There is no pivotting throught the turn; he remains square to the skis.

There is no use of the inertia of the CM to initiate the new turn.

The rise in between turns illustrates that all forces from the previous turn are dissipated, and all actions in the new turn occur on their own.

The turn tightens even though:

He has flexed before the fall-line.

There is no increased loading by applying pressure to the outside ski or extending in the belly of the turn.

There is NO pivotting of the feet

So, it is tightened by increasing the edge angle through the use of lower body angulation. That's what angulation looks like on that terrain.
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