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Italian demo team / MA - Page 4

post #91 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moods
That's what I am trying to do but I'm guessing I plant a little early and I'm not reaching enough. Thanks for the tip.
Do it statically (while standing on the slope) and see what it does to your upper body. It should help get it (and keep it) pretty much facing down the fall line. Your upper body is one of the keys to turning like that; it keeps your body wound so that the unwinding helps with the rapid turning of the skis.
post #92 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh
Do it statically (while standing on the slope) and see what it does to your upper body. It should help get it (and keep it) pretty much facing down the fall line. Your upper body is one of the keys to turning like that; it keeps your body wound so that the unwinding helps with the rapid turning of the skis.
Ah... that makes sense. I'll try it static and see how it feels. I am hoping to keep my speed very consistant and controled during this move. I'll give it go this weekend. Thanks again.

<M
post #93 of 166
Thread Starter 
BUMP TIME!!!

Since my Italian friends are finally all over the forums as viewed free demos, I'm firing this baby up for some more discussion.....even better thanks to faisasy we have some high quality video of our coaches to view finally....

These videos changed my ski life last year in a way not since Lito's breakthrough on skis 1.

Let's focus on Oro and Oro avanzato shall we? We've been battling with low level intermediate videos lately...let's crank it up a few notches.

Bring on the MA of these demos....all are welcome. Coaches, and examiners especially!!! Even better if instructors are from different disciplines....

See my first couple of posts for what I am primarily looking for. I would like how this style differs from PSIA, CSIA, PMTS or other teaching systems. Too much A frame(and why is that a problem?) - too much up/down, not enuff counter too much tip lead demonstrated whatever, bring your thoughts. If you can, please make a case for why one style is better or more efficient than another. A link to CSIA demos is in my signature below(you might also view www.snowproab.com - click on course materials - CSIA Alberta)....please post any other links to other free domain teaching system links you would like to add.

Why do I ask again? Because this stuff is free and I think it is priceless and as good as anything I have ever seen. I firmly believe, as stated in my signature you digest these demos and the flow of this skiing you will improve.....but I still like Lito too, so I could be wrong

Keep the flaming down, no marketing, ego stroking or "lookatme" agendas and let's have at it!!

Bring it!!

post #94 of 166
hrstrat... why not start a new thread for MA of your italians?
post #95 of 166
But disski, that is what this thread title is.

hr, check out the vids they don't have "Oro" or "Oro avanzato" on the menu anymore. I assume you want us to look at the Level 4 competencies?
post #96 of 166
Thread Starter 

great question!

Disski,

I wrestled with that a bit...my thoughts were a thread with several hundred previous views would get more attention. At risk of course is some of the mild flaming that went on in this thread last year. My decision was we are all on our better behavior, the forum is much better moderated and a lot of the points made in this thread could be embellished by others. I also had in mind that a thread with a lot of traffic might finally lure in some of our coaches or perhaps some lurking examiners who I really want to hear from. I would also like to draw in our PMTS guys who IMO are almost always respectful and polite, until they get attacked. The increased moderation should limit those attacks. I have no agenda, I am retired from teaching....I just want MA and comparison.

Taking my chances, we'll see how it goes.

Actually, I was hoping you would respond too....I know you have had high level lessons with many different systems? What do you see?

Thanks disski!!!!!!
post #97 of 166
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiMangoJazz View Post
hr, check out the vids they don't have "Oro" or "Oro avanzato" on the menu anymore. I assume you want us to look at the Level 4 competencies?
Just clicked on www.amsao.it link in my signature. Still there, still the same. You must have clicked on the CSIA link. The Canadian demos are more structured and more geared towards expectation towards certification it appears. More wading through required. Look at the Alberta site too. It is also most excellent.

Enjoy everybody!!!!!!
post #98 of 166
hrstsrat..

I jjust know seeing a LOOOOOOOONG thread turns some folks off.... or tthey go "oh that stuff- been there done that"

ME - i see nothing .... I am the most appalling bad visual learner you will ever find anywhere... that is one reason why I'm such a challenge to teach.... I will try to interpret the EXACT words you use to determine the movement you want.... I'm not likely to "see much" so a "do this" is next to useless....

that is why my first instructor was a specialist in blind skiers - he was accustomed to those that don't copy - I had explained my need to ski school and they attempted to serve me by providing a suitable instructor.... not rocket science but it seems beyond many....
post #99 of 166
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by disski View Post
hrstsrat..

I jjust know seeing a LOOOOOOOONG thread turns some folks off.... or tthey go "oh that stuff- been there done that"
Agreed, but I think the bulk of the material in the thread to date has been good.....thus my choice to bump.

Upon reflection this morning I will admit to one agenda item and it continues to trouble me. The Italians and the Canadians put up free demos for all to use and enjoy. Aside from some US ski schools(please post links at will folks) I have not been able to find anything from PSIA national in the free domain. As a former loyal and dedicated PSIA member and a fanatical advocate and student of both centerline and ATS I have found that to be disappointing. I think the CSIA and amsao decision to present their brilliant skiing to the masses is just good marketing..

but that is the topic for another thread I might post later....:

Rant off, I'll shaddap and listen....:
post #100 of 166
So what you do is go to http://www.amaso.it - on the left menu click on Video Lezioni, then click on Oro Base and Then Oro Avanzanto.
post #101 of 166
I had a look during another thread tonight (it's late Saturday night here) - looking for the garlands.

I really like what I saw. Clean, crisp, precise, strong, confident skiing. Beautiful simultaneous skis, same angles (even though he seemed to be tucking the downhill knee into the uphill leg, I couldn't see any ill effects). Big square body with the legs moving underneath, but never stiff.

Functional movement with the skis but nothing extraneous or excessive, loads of style and enjoyment.

These guys can SKI!
post #102 of 166
yeah ant - the knee thing had me puzzled.... the older insructors where I skied all did it.... as soon as I saw the video i remember they looked that way...
the WC guy i skied with did not...(well I don't remember it at all and i skied with him for 3 morning lessons)
Nor did the younger guy i skied with....(again IIRC)

....confused....
post #103 of 166
I learned to ski that way too, and when nervous the back knee creeps in behind the front knee. It can lead to A-framing but in the chap in the filum, it did not.
post #104 of 166
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ant View Post
I had a look during another thread tonight (it's late Saturday night here) - looking for the garlands.

I really like what I saw. Clean, crisp, precise, strong, confident skiing. Beautiful simultaneous skis, same angles (even though he seemed to be tucking the downhill knee into the uphill leg, I couldn't see any ill effects). Big square body with the legs moving underneath, but never stiff.

Functional movement with the skis but nothing extraneous or excessive, loads of style and enjoyment.These guys can SKI!
Ant,

Hoping also that you would chime in. I believe you have been exposed to teaching systems in multiple countries.....can you elucidate on any style differences you see here vs say...NZ, OZ, PSIA, CSIA etc? You might have one of the most trained eyes on epicski.

Can you mull over some thoughts?

Demos reflect the heart of any teaching system IMO. The boots on the snow tell the guest who you are and what can be expected. Demos present the language to be spoken to the guest and emphasize the basic movements that teaching entity feels any guest must master to become a proficient advanced skier. In my old school experience it was rehearsed, discussed and rehearsed some more. Even in my little ski school we attended clinics and practiced drills and demos to make certain that the guest received the same basic message and visuals. We spent hours reviewing PSIA ATS and centerline videos and broke it down frame by frame to ensure we applied the same technique and delivered the same message on the snow. Instruction became student centered from there of course, and everyone certainly had a bit of their own style but all of my ski school directors mandated demos be presented in a similar fashion.

Perhaps I am the only one interested in having the differences in "language" between various teaching systems explored?
post #105 of 166
I'm on the wrong end of a bottle of semillon-sauv blanc here. But. These Italian demos to me were like a chablis. Light and delicate, but with the body behind them to ensure they had substance.

The skiier had deft touch, precision in the snow, a very light movement style. They had the squared-up body that we see in race-influenced styles (especially Canadian), but it did not look like the skiier was out looking for a fight. And he did not have the coat-hanger shoulders and arms.

he had the loveliest simultaneous angles and deft edging: he was not digging holes with his skis as we see in some systems. He was very light with his touch. The knee thing was interesting, definitely style, but I could not see it affecting anything negatively. and it looked prettier than the truck-like style we see with the Australian system (and Canadian, sometimes).

I liked the clean-ness of his style, nothing waving or flapping. And I like the stylishness, the pretty and attractive appearance. The Austrians, while maybe espousing the "best" skiing, don't generally add that deft light flair. I've seen this, sometimes, from the Swiss also.
post #106 of 166
I will presume you are speaking about the swiss you know - not the one you and I know whose deft flair is definitely with the 1 arm bandits and bar staff....
post #107 of 166
Before some of the militant PMTS guys chime in, let me just say that we do things differently, and when we do it right, it does look different. The Italian skiing is not PMTS skiing. It doesn't try to be and doesn't need to be. I don't think there's any point in PMTS analysis of this skiing, and it would just be the same old things you've already heard from us.
post #108 of 166
I viewed this video

http://www.amsao.it/main.php?curr_liv=2&curr_id=76&prec_liv=1&prec_id= 33&lang=it&sotto_livelli=&tip=19

Very energetic transition. The cross over is not the most energy and movement efficient, as there is a noticeable rise of the CM on the way to neutral, there is rapid extension of the old inside leg before neutral, there is limited flexion in the old outside leg before neutral, and there is often a loss of pressure and ski to snow contact during the transition cycle.

It differs from the more efficient arc to arc transitions seen here in these current WC montages (by Ron LeMaster).

http://ronlemaster.com/images/latest-images/slides/palander-bc-2004-gs-2A.html

http://ronlemaster.com/images/2004-2005/slides/kildow-natls-2005-gs-2-c.html
post #109 of 166
Rick - is this why to me (compared to say the WC guy I sied with there) the video guys seem to "huck" into the new turn?
it almost feels like they "stop" for a second ... while when I watch him he moves smoothly ALL the time....?
post #110 of 166
Exactly, Disski. It's the aggressive extension that causes the loss of pressure/contact, and thus the apparent interuption period you see.

And you said something about not having a good eye? Balderdash!
post #111 of 166
an instructor i skied with for 2 days seems to feel i see "style" and copy that... he was adamant I should ski only with better skiers because he thinks I do this a LOT....
This was the guy that 'lost' me when I changed to ski like him.... he was looking for how he thought I skied...

It appears I'm not aware of doing this... it just happens...

Ditto I can see no DETAIL in those videos... I have no idea what they are doing... it just feels different to what that other guy does....

even the tuck rolls feel "wrong" ... as in not quite what I expect.. like he sort of comes out of the tuck a bit to roll.... rather than smoother across... he feels "high" too ... but maybe he has longer legs than those I normally see??? I have no idea what is different.. just it seems "higher" and "jerkier" than what I have in my head from the other folks skiing...
post #112 of 166
I am not a PSIA or PMTS expert...don't even have my Level 1...however I do consider myself an expert in skiing in general )(taught in CAN/NZ/AUS and worked with pros from all over the planet), and the CSIA specifically...(CSIA Level 4)...so having said that here is my two cents:

First: I think you asking the wrong question. I have stated this many times in the past, if you truly want to improve your own skiing, and understanding of skiing, your focus should not be on the things that make the Italians different from the PSIA or CSIA or APSI or whatever...you should focus on what makes them the same.

The things that are the same, these are the gems, the building blocks if you like of good skiing..they are always prevelant and are "non-negotiable". The differneces, are subtle, not important, and generally reflect the individual rather then the organisation they represent.

For example: Eberhartter, Raich, Maier, ...etc all amazing skiers, all Austrian....but they all "look" different...a coach who knows these guys would have no problem picking them out from each other based on how they ski.

Same with top demonstrators....in Canada SS does not look like NK when skiing top end...how could they? SS is about 6'3...and NK is about 5'8. Both amazing skiers, both have been the core of Canada's D-team for about the last 15years, both "ski Canadian"...yet they look differnt. Having said that, their fundamentals are both rock solid, and are identical.

Further...I would suggest this Azo fellow, could pass the CSIA L4 exams tommorow without changing a thing in his skiing...and I'll go on a limb here, but I am sure I would be right...Azo could go to the PSIA 3 exams and pass without chaning a thing.....

The real differences between the CSIA/PSIA/PMTS/APSI/ETC/ETC/ETC is in their progressions. How they take someone from never ever and gets them to the top...that varies a fair bit from one organisation to another...and it is this misunderstanding of intermediate steps from final forms that causes much confusion. However there are many paths to get someone from A to B...some better then others...but what system is better greatly depends on the student and the instructor...and the terrain, snow conditions etc at the time.
post #113 of 166
Skidude, for the most part I agree with your post, but in some instances I think that the subtlties can set one system apart from another in terms of how far you can take your expert level skiing. That said, I would also expect as you said, that a top level instructor (say D-Team level) would be a top level instructor anywhere - regardless of the 'system' they were trying to get into. Perhaps it is a subject/topic for another thread, but one thing that you said stood out to me:

Quote:
However there are many paths to get someone from A to B...some better then others...but what system is better greatly depends on the student and the instructor...and the terrain, snow conditions etc at the time.
It would seem to me that if your teaching system is dependant on terrain and snow conditions; then you really do not have an all encompassing system, and your system has significant weaknesses. Put more simply, if what you are teaching is at some point in the skier's life not going to work because of snow or terrain, then you are probably not teaching the right things.

I always have felt (and still do feel) that someone will become a great skier, not by understanding a particular system, but by understanding skiing... Not looking at a turn and saying "I have to ski like this because teaching system X says so," but finding out what is really going on - figuring out why certain movments work and others do not and adjusting your skiing accordingly, based on an actual understanding of balance (fore/aft and lateral), CM movement, edging/pivoting, pressure, etc.

Later

GREG
post #114 of 166
I suppose that statment regarding systems needs more clarification:

Some systems...say the French...where the snow is more "off-piste" have a different approach to the PSIA/CSIA where things are mostly groomed...in NZ..(and yes I am being serious here) actually teach you to teach skiing on the GRASS...yes GRASS...why? becuase often at the bottom of the hill there is so little snow, that you need to spend about half your time on the grass, waiting for your turn on the snow patch!

Most systems...like the CSIA are very flexable and can accomdate...but you will notice differences...this is very clear on this board, when the NW PSIA guys talk to the east guys...the east guys deal with much harder snow then the west, hence I would suspect that instructors in the east would find themselves emphasising different things at different times in the progression as a result. Yet both systems would be "correct".

My point is that there is no hard fast rule that says this is the "right" progression.
post #115 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by disski View Post
even the tuck rolls feel "wrong" ... as in not quite what I expect.. like he sort of comes out of the tuck a bit to roll.... rather than smoother across... he feels "high" too ... but maybe he has longer legs than those I normally see??? I have no idea what is different.. just it seems "higher" and "jerkier" than what I have in my head from the other folks skiing...
Disski, Rick pretty much nailed the MA already and you are seeing higher and jerkier "look" because of exactly what Rick said. These guys are extending their old inside leg just a little bit too fast in a rush to get onto an extended stance leg and probably also to push extend their CM into the next turn. This ends up giving them what you see as a sort of pendilum look since they extend that leg before the old leg has retracted enough and when they get to the point in the transition where both skiis are flat on the snow their legs are not very bent.

I'll add more to that. I think they are also not releasing their old outside ski fast enough. They are standing on the new outside ski and extending that leg too fast and relaxing and flexing the old outside ski too slow. If they relax/release the old outside leg a little bit more abruptly, then it will cease to block the CM and the CM will move across into the new turn more rapidly and effortlessly, rather than seeming to hang up a little as you are noticing now. Also, they will have less of a need to have to stand on the new outside ski so rapidly, which it seems to me they are doing in an attempt to PUSH their CM across into the new turn.

Moving the CM across to the inside of the new turn using a PUSH from the new outside leg is risky because its very easy to push into a skid. These guys are very good at skiing this way and have a very good feel for exactly how much to push without that happening, but I feel if they push less with that leg and release more quickly with the old outside leg...they will look more effortless and smooth, with less risk of pushing into a skid. Doing it this way will also result in somewhat less of a pendilum look as both legs will be more flexed at the flat-on-snow transition point. I did see at least one turn where his push transition resulted in some early turn pivot/skidding (see the frames where they have his feet highlighted, I saw a couple others too).

After reading Rick's comments again, I guess I didn't add anything new to what he said already in more concise words. :-)

On the positive side I like that fact that they appear to be standing predominantly on their outside ski during each turn and keeping that leg extended. They don't appear (to me) to be using pivoting or knee angulation, etc to attempt to steer the skis. Once they hook up into their carves they are holding nice carves with outside leg extended and stood on. Bravo to that. This would contrast against what PSIA (and CSIA) typically look like as they tend to steer their skiis a bit more. The Italians need to keep working on their transitions though.
post #116 of 166
ORO avanzato,

Ski like that!!!!

rippin' good!
post #117 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by hrstrat57 View Post
...
Too much A frame(and why is that a problem?) - too much up/down, not enuff counter too much tip lead demonstrated whatever, bring your thoughts.
hrstrat57"

First off, thanks for bumping this thread. I really enjoyed watching these videos the first time around and it's still fun and educational.

I'm really interested in specific comments about the sentence above, particularly the part about A-frame.

I've seen the A-frame move disparaged time and again on these pages over the years and I'm still not sure I understand why.

What harm results, functionally, from a very mild (but still noticeable) A-frame such as that exhibited in the Oro Avanzato video? Specifically, how would his skiing improve if he eliminated that? Would he be more "efficient"? If so, how would we or he be able to tell? Would he carve better? Would he ski with less effort somehow? Would his turn translate better in more difficult conditions and if so, why?

I just don't understand how his stance, which is definitely not "parallel shins" in the apex of those turns, hurts anything at all.
post #118 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Peters View Post
hrstrat57"

I'm really interested in specific comments about the sentence above, particularly the part about A-frame.

What harm results, functionally, from a very mild (but still noticeable) A-frame such as that exhibited in the Oro Avanzato video?

I just don't understand how his stance, which is definitely not "parallel shins" in the apex of those turns, hurts anything at all.
This is easy....his "A-Frame" doesn't hurt anything.

A traditional "A-Frame" is achieved by flexing the downhill knee into the uphill one...we actually used to teach this....we moved away from it becuase having that downhill knee angulated like that was hard on the joint, and was weak postion to ski in.

Now Oro, has what appears to the untrained eye as A-Frame isn't really. In an A-Frame, the issue is the downhill leg is over angulated at the knee...his cleary is fine...but as you point out his shin's are not parallel either.

The reason is the inside ski or his leg...is not tipped in as much as it could be. If you look at the video, especially on the one turn,the garlands and the tuck turns it is easy to see his downhill knee has no excessive (or any) angulation...he is in a strong position.

To get parallel shins he needs to tip the inside knee in more...but this would really only be some style points...although I suppose it could be argued that by tipping the inside ski more it is possible it may get his inside ski working abit more...but looking at the video, I'd say he has that inside ski working just fine!
post #119 of 166
http://www.amsao.it/main.php?curr_li...ivelli=&tip=19

I think this is darn nice skiing in the gs segment!

I have read above comments about width of stance and wonder if it is this video that is being referred to? This guys stance looks very functional. It is my personal belief that a narrow stance is eligent and functional at the same time. Realizing that the stance will naturally widen as needed in steeper terrain or higher edge angles. a "functional" narrow stance demonstrates a higher level of balancing skills.

Comparing the free skiing of the Italian video to the Ron Lemaster montages of racers is not very equivalent. I would bet the Italian demonstrator in a race course would adapt his tactics and line to the race course and show good movements in that arena too.

b
post #120 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post
This is easy....his "A-Frame" doesn't hurt anything.

A traditional "A-Frame" is achieved by flexing the downhill knee into the uphill one...we actually used to teach this....we moved away from it becuase having that downhill knee angulated like that was hard on the joint, and was weak postion to ski in.

Now Oro, has what appears to the untrained eye as A-Frame isn't really. In an A-Frame, the issue is the downhill leg is over angulated at the knee...his cleary is fine...but as you point out his shin's are not parallel either.

The reason is the inside ski or his leg...is not tipped in as much as it could be. If you look at the video, especially on the one turn,the garlands and the tuck turns it is easy to see his downhill knee has no excessive (or any) angulation...he is in a strong position.

To get parallel shins he needs to tip the inside knee in more...but this would really only be some style points...although I suppose it could be argued that by tipping the inside ski more it is possible it may get his inside ski working abit more...but looking at the video, I'd say he has that inside ski working just fine!
My thoughts exactly. only thing i would add is his edge angles loook matched to me. IMHO A-Frame n a negative sense usually refers more to the inside ski being at a lower or very much lower edge angle then the outside ski with unmatched shins.

I just think at the extreme angles he is creating, there is only so far the inside knee can get over & out of the way. You see this all the time in WC level racers in a course.
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