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Italian demo team / MA

post #1 of 166
Thread Starter 
Thanks to "nobody" I came across these visuals which I have found quite useful...(I have been unsuccessful in obtaining a link to any equiv free video from PSIA/demo team or realskiers)

I refrd to it in a recent thread and a response described the skiing as "ok"

www.amsao.it

Very interested in detailed MA of Oro Avanzato.

If possible compare to PSIA demo team and PMTS with differences where applicable?

Avanzato only please, I can see the limitations in the other levels.

Very interested in opinions of examiners, sr level III's or demo team members (Nolo, Jeb Boyd, Weems others...)

Any links to free PSIA demo team updated videos would be appreciated if you can reference them....

Thanks
post #2 of 166
I only watched the "freeride" clip which had pretty good comedic value. HUGE daffy at the beginning , sloppy 360 towards the middle.

They have an awful lot of up and down movement, which MAY be okay for deep deep powder, but it looked as if they were in about 3-5 inches. Their feet are too close together too.

Also, at one point, they look like they are doing some type of Thousand Step drill. But instead of starting with the inside foot and steering it around, they step waaay to the outside of the turn, looking more like a stem. I guess it's whatever floats your boat, but I would think that this wouldn't do much to promote the center of mass moving across the skis.
post #3 of 166
it's not the demo team but it's d-team quality various radius and types of turns on varied pitches and snow.

video
post #4 of 166
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattchuck2
I only watched the "freeride" clip which had pretty good comedic value. HUGE daffy at the beginning , sloppy 360 towards the middle.

They have an awful lot of up and down movement, which MAY be okay for deep deep powder, but it looked as if they were in about 3-5 inches. Their feet are too close together too.

Also, at one point, they look like they are doing some type of Thousand Step drill. But instead of starting with the inside foot and steering it around, they step waaay to the outside of the turn, looking more like a stem. I guess it's whatever floats your boat, but I would think that this wouldn't do much to promote the center of mass moving across the skis.
The "freeride" section?...I don't like it either...

Maybe I need to clarify here...

I am asking for high level MA experts to breakdown the movement patterns in the oro avanzato section only. I can breakdown the other sections myself. These are demos, obviously some movements are exaggerated. Critique the techique in general.

A comment was made in another thread that this skiing was "ok". I think it is solid modern technique and very helpful for old school skiers making the transition to the new technology. I have not found anything better on the internet for free. I applaud the Italian demo team for putting this out there in the free domain

How do these movement patterns differ from PSIA demo team level demonstrations of the same level skiing...?? Same question for PMTS experts. Explain the differences and elucidate on why PSIA, PMTS is superior if you believe it is....if you can back up your comments with some video images even better.

Be brave and have some fun with it....and feel free to ignore my signature below for the purpose of this thread.

Thanks! hrstrat57
post #5 of 166
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dchan
it's not the demo team but it's d-team quality various radius and types of turns on varied pitches and snow.

video
Thanks DCHAN nice visuals.

One shortcoming of epic IMHO is lack of video references. I know you have been working hard on this and asking for contributions. I have a closet full of Lito and PSIA centerline and ATS videos from the 80's/90's but nothing new school. Lack of video resources avail here and on the www is why I was so excited when Nobody revealed this link in August. A free resource of this quality is significant and that is why I have mentioned it frequently. I found the lack of comments at the time Nobody posted the links puzzling. TommyK, Shen, Bob Peters and Martin Bell took time to comment as I recall. Few others.

Clearly the Italians ski a bit differently and with more vertical movement. Different sure. Just "ok" ? This is the Italian demo team. I think not.

MA...??
post #6 of 166
post #7 of 166
Great USSA links!
post #8 of 166
I won't perform any MA since I'm not qualified for it.
I'd like to read the MAs though.
I'll offer just a few comments:
-Oro Avanzato is the equivalent to Level 10 in your ability scale.
The demonstrators are just showing what mr "average guy" should be able to do once that level has been reached.So, of course movements are a bit exaggerated (but I think here we all ski with an "accentuated" up/down move). Somewhere there's a bit of footage of myself skiing, feel free to use that to compare ( look into the video library section)
-I do not agree with the statement "feet too close toghether".
Feet look hip width to me, and that's wide enough as far as I'm concerned.

Have fun! Forza Rocca!!!!
post #9 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nobody
-I do not agree with the statement "feet too close toghether".
Feet look hip width to me, and that's wide enough as far as I'm concerned.

Have fun! Forza Rocca!!!!
I looked at the video and wondered how long it would take for someone to comment on width of feet. These guys have a look of old school to them. Although I am not qualified to say, there feet are not too close together - for the most part IMHO.
post #10 of 166
freeskisnow, I am the "nobody" hrstrat57 refers to in his opening post.
Please, define "feet too close" for me. How do we do it? A search in this forum should give both of us a clear idea of that, since it had been discussed ad nauseam in the past.
And, of course it came out that it's such a variable thing that it can't be defined with strict parameters (like, "this much inches apart"), rather, it depends from the person physical structure, the kind of turn that person is performing etc.
Again, as a comparison, go to the video library and look for "matteo1.mpg" and "matteo.mpg" (those are the filenames, IIRC).
I am a product of 11+ years lessons (from 6 y.o. to 17 y.o.) of the Italian ski school. Actually, when I stopped taking lessons I had reached the 3 gold stars, which , at the time where the equivalent of the ORO avanzato (advanced gold, I still have the certification paper somewhere, FWIW)
I'll give this to you, my feet are too close for my liking. Not those of the instructors demoing the levels. Of course, IMHO.
post #11 of 166
I agree with Matteo here. Your feet are only too close when balance and stability become compromised. These guys are clearly never out of balance or not stable on their skis. They did seem to ski with their legs closer together, but due to the angles they are getting I don't think that this is an issue.

Some of the skiing looked a little static to me, but that is probably because of the long turn shape and the purpose of this being for demonstration so that those watching can clearly see the movements required for that level of skiing. it would make sense to slow them down and exagerrate them.

Later

GREG
post #12 of 166
I do not feel qualified as a "high-level MA expert", which is why I haven't posted here. But, based on hrstrats' comments elsewhere, I'll throw my thoughts in...

I think that their feet are a little farther apart than they need to be most of the time, contributing to a general A-frame look to their stance. They also tend to have their weight back (note that when the skis leave the snow, they do so tips first) and are using more rotary for most of these turns than I would have expected, even in the one-ski drill. As a result, it seems to me like many of the turns are "forced" instead of "allowed".

That said, the skiers are clearly very highly skilled. I have to wonder if they could use some alignment work given their knees-together look.
post #13 of 166
Thread Starter 
Thanks for you comments Steve! BTW I consider you high level even if you don't feel you are. Your analysis throughout the forum is outstanding. As is your demeanor.

I have no agenda here. Just trying to save a few thousand bucks in ski lessons 2 in college and another on the way I gotta be a do it yourselfer at this point. I poured plenty of bucks into PSIA in the past trust me. Paid my dues so to speak.....

I see all of your points clearly except for the rotary comments....(but remember my M/A is old school 80's/90's so my MA experience included a lot of rotary) - where do you see the excessive rotary in this skiing? The skiing looks very efficient to me and the line is clean and functional. Further how are the flaws (wrong word?) in this skiing detrimental to say my development? I saw a lot of similar things going on in the Rocca video provided by Gary. Hard to compare WC racing footage to high level demo tho as the movements in the demo are obviously exaggerated a bit.

I am really looking for detail as to how this skiing differs from PSIA demo team and high level PMTS as might be demonstrated by HH or Diana. The differences are too subtle for me to break down....

Again no agenda.....just looking for M/A and opinions.

USSA comments might quickly go over my head.

But I am brave so bring em on too....
post #14 of 166

Spagetti

Im also a bit confused about the rotary movement..... some explanation would be nice.

I think these guys in the Oro Avanzato video are great skiers. Solid 10. They are possibly not Italian demo team members, they are probably just regular ski instructors that have been skiing since 3y olds and earning their living by teaching since 16y. There must be 10 thousands of those guys all over the Alps. Now they look 40 to me so they started with leather boots in the 60s, raced in the 70s with step turns, caught the first snowboard wave in the 80's and swapped to short carving skis in the 90's. When you consider all this the transaction they have made into new gear has been a great success for them. I have been skiing in the Alps since the 60's and no matter where I go, Italy, France, Austria, Swizerland or Germany those guys are for the most part unbelivably skillfull. Take in consideration that they are true all mountain skiers not one trick ponys like some of the new generation park or race skiers. There is absolutely no way anybody can get away by ranting on these guys skills. I could be wrong offcourse.

Up and down movement
I see some up and down movement in the video. I also see the same kind of up down movement in Grandis sking on the www.youcanski.com site. This is part of a way of generate forward motion and building up pressure under your skis for better edge hold. Same motion as ice-scating backwards. It also makes it look dynamic. There is much less up and down movement in the GS turns. I think remarks on this issue probably refairs to other videos on the site.

Stand width
I think their stand width varies a lot. Just like the guys in the WC when they ski SL. If its very steep they have a wide stance and if its flat and gates are set in a line they bring their skis if not completely together to at least a fists width apart. Varying the stance width like they do in this video I think is part of functional skiing.

A-frame
At 0:29 we have some A-frame and at various other places as well. I dont think they actively even try to lose it completely. They ski bumps, powder, crudd and they have to wedge with students for extensive time periods. Only race coaches and carving experts rave about loosing the A-frame completely.

Downhill demo
This is a great way to demonstrate carving. It has been arround for as long as I can remember and in the 70 this is the way we used to practise carving on those old straight planks. In the alps there are many times long flat transportation paths that were a perfect practising range for efficient edging. I use this as a demo for my students when we practise on our carving. Fun to see it in a video like this.

Force Palander
post #15 of 166
tdk6 and all... I take this sentence
Now they look 40 to me so they started with leather boots in the 60s, raced in the 70s with step turns, caught the first snowboard wave in the 80's and swapped to short carving skis in the 90's.

And have to comment.
In Italy during the early '90s the Italian ski school developed a "concept" (for lack of a better word) called "Supertecnica". It was in the instructors manual until 4/5 years ago.
Basically it was "carving" before the carving skis appeared (but not long, the concept came out in 1992, when I had my go at the selections for ski instructor school) I have the tape with the demos at home, unfortunately I can't find any footage of it in the internet. It would be interesting to compare this old "Supertecnica" (basically there were three kind of turns "SuperParallelo", "SuperSerpentina","SuperScodinzolo", ,where the "scodinzolo" is the wedeln...) with the now "carving" technique. So, in short, our instructors had to pass through, not only the phases you outline, but also an intermediate phase, the one of the Supertecnica.
post #16 of 166
See as an example here
http://www.cortinanet.it/pages/attiv...ctivities.html
.
"... and moreover: " Supertechnique ", Carving, races at the end of courses, races organization for clubs, video recording of your achievments, torchlight skiing and happy diners with live music in the mountain refuges ! "
.
post #17 of 166
I think this is fantastic skiing, whether it's the "right" way according to PSIA isn't important. Wish I could ski like that!
post #18 of 166

Nobody can ski like that....

Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiMangoJazz
I think this is fantastic skiing, whether it's the "right" way according to PSIA isn't important. Wish I could ski like that!
Great skiing .
post #19 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by hrstrat57
I see all of your points clearly except for the rotary comments....(but remember my M/A is old school 80's/90's so my MA experience included a lot of rotary) - where do you see the excessive rotary in this skiing? The skiing looks very efficient to me and the line is clean and functional.
Keep in mind, these are the comments of a guy who still considers himself to have a lot to learn!

What I see is rotary used in the initiation of the turn (from the top to the belly) and the bottom half more carved. If you watch the fella who skis on one ski, you see a lot of "swish" of the tail that doesn't need to be there. If you take a modern ski and tip it side to side, you'll make arcs tighter than the turns that he's making. It just requires bigger angles.

In short, it doesn't seem to me as though they are generating the angles that they could to demonstrate high-level, (mostly) carved skiing. If there's going to be "drift" in a turn, let it be after the belly as a result of edge angle less than the critical angle for that speed and arc. Instead of forcing the skis to brush the turn initiation. The "drift" is an "allow" so is efficient. The brushed initiation requires muscle to create, so it's a "make" instead of an "allow" and so is less effective skiing.

Does this help explain what I was seeing?

I think that this is high-level skiing. It's not as solid as I was expecting to see, and not as high-level as some that I've seen in the past 24 hours...
post #20 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiMangoJazz
I think this is fantastic skiing, whether it's the "right" way according to PSIA isn't important. Wish I could ski like that!
SMJ, interesting phrasing. PSIA doesn't espouse a "right way" to ski. It does, however, offer tools to instructors so that they can help their guests reach those guests' own individual skiing goals.

It's a bit difficult to believe that I would have anything to teach those skiers (I very much doubt it). But, it is also unclear what their objectives are in that skiing. What is their intent? Why are they doing what they are doing? Is it intentionally and for a specific purpose? Or is it vestigial? It's not possible for me to guess if it's either of these or something else entirely.

I can say that I could make some suggestions such that they would reduce their applied effort. However, that might not be a goal that they have. Alternatively, it may negatively impact a different goal.
post #21 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh
SMJ, interesting phrasing. PSIA doesn't espouse a "right way" to ski. It does, however, offer tools to instructors so that they can help their guests reach those guests' own individual skiing goals.

It's a bit difficult to believe that I would have anything to teach those skiers (I very much doubt it). But, it is also unclear what their objectives are in that skiing. What is their intent? Why are they doing what they are doing? Is it intentionally and for a specific purpose? Or is it vestigial? It's not possible for me to guess if it's either of these or something else entirely.

I can say that I could make some suggestions such that they would reduce their applied effort. However, that might not be a goal that they have. Alternatively, it may negatively impact a different goal.
I know that PSIA doesn't specifically espouse a "right way" but even your comments in the thread above imply that their method isn't "right"

Quote:
In short, it doesn't seem to me as though they are generating the angles that they could to demonstrate high-level, (mostly) carved skiing. If there's going to be "drift" in a turn, let it be after the belly as a result of edge angle less than the critical angle for that speed and arc. Instead of forcing the skis to brush the turn initiation. The "drift" is an "allow" so is efficient. The brushed initiation requires muscle to create, so it's a "make" instead of an "allow" and so is less effective skiing.
When I get PSIA coaching they say things like "there's too much up and down in your skiing....." or "I'd like to see you get your feet wider apart."

There really does seem to be a "way" that is taught, in spite of statements to the contrary. And don't get me wrong, I try to do what they say as well, I respect and admire the "style" of skiing that high level PSIA types do. But I guess that's just it, it is a "style." And a great one at that. Just not the only one that works.

Like when I taught at Berklee College of Music, there were notes that we taught were not to be used on certain chords, for example. But many of the greatest players in the world use those notes, and quite effectively. We were trying to teach what was "right" and let the student later in life realize they could break the rules.

As to why and what they're doing, it seems to me that a lot of these are drills and exercises, it's just that the darn narrator seems to be speaking in a foreign language or something. :
post #22 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiMangoJazz
I know that PSIA doesn't specifically espouse a "right way" but even your comments in the thread above imply that their method isn't "right"
I just re-read my comments, and I don't see it. Can you help me? And, yes, this is an honest request. What I attempted to communicate (and thought that I had) is that it is different from what I would expect of the highest-level skiing. I would expect a more "effortless" approach to directing the skier down the mountain. It is not "right" to ski effectively and/or efficiently. I just find that it maximizes fun, since I can stay out longer and ski more days in a row.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiMangoJazz
When I get PSIA coaching they say things like "there's too much up and down in your skiing....." or "I'd like to see you get your feet wider apart."
I hope that these statements are in the context of working with you to help you improve specific aspects of your skiing, as opposed to conforming you to the instructor's idea of how you should ski.

That said, I recognize that there's a lot of truth in the old joke about the difference between God and a Vail ski instructor*...
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiMangoJazz
There really does seem to be a "way" that is taught, in spite of statements to the contrary. And don't get me wrong, I try to do what they say as well, I respect and admire the "style" of skiing that high level PSIA types do. But I guess that's just it, it is a "style." And a great one at that. Just not the only one that works.

Like when I taught at Berklee College of Music, there were notes that we taught were not to be used on certain chords, for example. But many of the greatest players in the world use those notes, and quite effectively. We were trying to teach what was "right" and let the student later in life realize they could break the rules.
I really like your analogy, and it works for me. Except that the PSIA approach to ski instruction actually encourages the development of those broad sets of skills rather than "ski this way". The latter is very much outdated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiMangoJazz
As to why and what they're doing, it seems to me that a lot of these are drills and exercises, it's just that the darn narrator seems to be speaking in a foreign language or something. :


* God doesn't think he's a ski instructor.
post #23 of 166
Hey Steve, I reread your post too, and you did say that you didn't know what their goals were, and that your advice might even work against their goals. So you're right, you didn't really say their way was "wrong."

My point still stands though that there is a bit of a technique du jour in PSIA, kind of like the way CPR changes every few years.

I also understand that when teaching you need to guide your students with a set of skills. It's all well and good to say that great teaching teaches people how to learn, not teaches them things - but in practice good teaching does need to teach a skill set.

My original post was just saying that the Italian video skiing may not be the way that PSIA teaches these days, but was still great skiing.

Have fun at ESA, I'm jealous - but am going to Vail in 3 weeks for two weeks, so I'll get mine
post #24 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiMangoJazz
My original post was just saying that the Italian video skiing may not be the way that PSIA teaches these days, but was still great skiing.
'Twas very good skiing, indeed.

...but, no teaching, and I don't think any PSIA person would say that it was anything other than very good skiing. So, I don't think there's a conflict here.

It's my view that everyone can improve anything that they do. It is certainly true of all of the skiers that I've met personally. What I was suggesting is that there may be some possible improvements there, depending on their intent. Personally, I prefer more arc-to-arc at that level of skiing on that kind of terrain.
post #25 of 166
When doing a video like that you need good weather, good snow conditions, right people behind the camera and on skis, no other people crowding the slope etc... Everyone that ever taped skiing on video understands that its difficult to catch the best skiing moments on tape. From that standpoint I dont see that many flaws in thos guys skiing and I would not write them off as averidge experts. Those guys are phenomenal. Go anywhere in the alps and book a good ski guid for a day and tell him to try his best to lose you on the hill and I bet it will not take long before he is gone. So far I have never seen anybody keep up with the highly skilled local ski-instructors. Not even a professional mogul skier we skied with once. They spend most of their day just waiting for their customers to catch up. Disclamer, there are instructors like that also in the US offcourse.
post #26 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh
'Twas very good skiing, indeed.

...but, no teaching, and I don't think any PSIA person would say that it was anything other than very good skiing. So, I don't think there's a conflict here.

It's my view that everyone can improve anything that they do. It is certainly true of all of the skiers that I've met personally.
No conflict, I agree.

One of my favorite concepts/quotes.

I may be here, you may be there, Weems may be THERE - but...
we are all the same distance from infinity.
post #27 of 166
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6
When doing a video like that you need good weather, good snow conditions, right people behind the camera and on skis, no other people crowding the slope etc... Everyone that ever taped skiing on video understands that its difficult to catch the best skiing moments on tape. From that standpoint I dont see that many flaws in thos guys skiing and I would not write them off as averidge experts. Those guys are phenomenal. Go anywhere in the alps and book a good ski guid for a day and tell him to try his best to lose you on the hill and I bet it will not take long before he is gone. So far I have never seen anybody keep up with the highly skilled local ski-instructors. Not even a professional mogul skier we skied with once. They spend most of their day just waiting for their customers to catch up.

tdk6,

for me that actually is the heart of the matter....the videos are sooooo clear. I was really able to copy the movement patterns easily which was huge for me as I dove headfirst into the new ski's. Granted, I have a few decades of balancing on ski's under my belt and I have years of ski instruction and sports coaching(tennis, baseball, softball, basketball) experience so I might be better at breaking down film and observing athletic movement patterns than many folks. I have always been a strong visual learner. Others are not, I know.

This stuff tho, particularly the 2 "oro" segments is extremely well done. As I have found no other free material of this quality it was natural for me to use these images as my guide. Further, I have turned all my family and skiing friends onto these images. Everyone's skiing has taken a quantum leap partly as a result. Until someone convinces me of the shortcomings of this skiing or points to better images in the free domain I intend to continue to emulate them. I may just be skiing "ok"....certainly I make no other claims. It is still too new.....

But it feels like flying to me.....

My goals are being met thanks in part to these images. Of course more than a little credit goes to Volkl for the amazing tip and drive Allstars.

Goals?

=

Back to the M/A
post #28 of 166
hr, questions:

When you say that you are emulating them, what are you doing?

What happens when you take those medium/long radius turns or the single-ski drill and just tip to get the skis to turn (keeping the skis on the ground throughout the turns)?
post #29 of 166
Thread Starter 
Not interested really in making the thread about me and I am unqualified to do so. If I sounded like I was I apologize. My goal was merely to express my enthusiasm for the Italian demo team providing this resource. The single ski drill as demonstrated is way over my head at this point I would not even presume to attempt it. Tho as a fan of Lito I certainly have ski'd many many miles on 1 ski.....in pursuit of old school early weight shift. Balance has always been my main focus and I can balance very effectively on either ski. My impression of new school was the goal is to migrate away from one footed dominant tecnique focusing more on engaging both edges simultaneously.

I have relied on the visuals to give me feedback of how much to tip the skis and what angles to seek as I increase the pressure to make my skiing more dynamic. I feel I am just scratching the surface of the "oro avanzato" images tho SMJ has been more complimentary of my skills(we have ski'd together a few times) I feel as tho he is overstating my ability at this point. Maybe my skiing looks like the images, but it doesn't feel it to me, though it is so new I am still unclear on what it feels like anyway. It really does feel like flying. That is very exciting indeed!

I am comfortable that my skiing is well within the oro segment. I am focusing on reducing the up down and engaging the little toe edge vs early weight shift. There is a clear lack of rotary in my skiing now, the focus is on edging, tipping and dialing up the pressure. I am playing with stance width quite a bit tho my stance remains rather narrow as in most of the videos. I think I am more forward on the ski's than many of the demos tho, perhaps too much so, but it feels right. My old kiwi born ski school directors insistence that you can't be too forward on your ski's sticks with me. I alway engage the tips early and it remains a focus for me. Perhaps it is the one constant as I migrate from old school to new school.

The videos have given me confidence. I am quite pleased with the rapid progress I have made with skiing the Allstar well. The ski tho, once understood and properly utilized certainly does most of the work. This pilot is just kinda going along for the ride. The new stuff is really that good. Truly amazing.

With sufficient on slope practice and a little better fitness I am very confident I can approach the avanzato skill level....

No more me. As said I am a visual learner. I stay out of the technique forum because I do not elucidate well. Interestingly I have noticed some of our most esteemed members from the teaching profession do not participate often in the technique threads. Perhaps they suffer from the same lack of ability to speak with clarity about technique that I do. Which is ok. I gotta see the boots on the snow to respect someone anyway. Or at least the report of a know witness. I taught skiing via demos and bag of tricks, not by words. That's why I asked for M/A of these videos. This is what I have seen and hopefully breaking it down by others can assist me. Specifically how do these visuals differ in style from PSIA demo team? PMTS? What are the pitfalls here if any in this skiing? I ask because I don't see them. My M/A skills remain old school. Others are implying faults are here. Elaborate. Point out specific faults and suggest corrections.

One more time I have no agenda here. This skiing has been criticized. Help me see it. Where are alternate better demos of similar quality? If they are not out there in the free domain, why not? Haven't the Italian's created a great marketing tool here for their craft? Where is similar free footage from the french, PSIA, PMTS the austrians or canadians? That's probably another topic for another thread.....epicski is about sharing, and so are the Italians. Who else?

Way too much from me....out.
post #30 of 166
hr, play with more angles. Especially in the one-ski drill. You'll be amazed what your skis can do without a boost from you...

I have no comment on the videos that aren't available for free. I know that Winter Park had some last year (their SSD Bob Barnes, not the EpicSki Bob Barnes). I think that the USSA and PSIA demo videos are pretty good, tho.
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