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Gas pedal, ramp and binding placements - Page 2

post #31 of 52

RAMP, BOF, TDC/Centerline, what's the dif?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoftSnowGuy
Gary,
I don't think ramp angle change is a replacement for binding location change. They may have related effects, but also have different effects on the ski's action.


Ken
Agreed. RAMP doesn't change the BOF, moving the binding does and will change the ski's physical arc. Both will affect how a ski performs under foot, however. It is confusing, you've gotta ski it to feel it, I think.

Anyway, got back on the 181's (these are the men's 9Xti out of the race room, thicker top sheet of metal) without the increased toe RAMP. OH MY GAWD! I've found my steep hill skis. They actually out perform (at least for me and I could get into why) both my 184 and 190's for certain types of courses. To put it into a sensation, I'm the driver and can keep my CM going more directly down hill yet they still hold like a B*tch. I would still use my longer skis on the flatter more rolling courses (such as Loveland Valley, Snow Basin, Big Sky, etc.) but on the steep ones like Hemingway at Sun Valley, CB's at PC or even the run at Targhee, I'm opting for the 181. Its a wholelotta ski for the length and I'm blown away.

Next I'm going to play with toe lift on the longer skis, we shall see if they pull away from the 181's with a little "RAMPAGE", as we call it in ski racing (a poke at Chad Fleischer )

Edit, and this is background for Pierre. Not only did I dump my AMFIT foot bed but have gone down from a 10 to 9 shell (315 Sole Length). My street size is 11.5 with a fairly wide forefoot. My boots were built by Zach Lloyd of Rossignol (the Western Region Junior Program Manager, he builds a large portion of the FIS Junior boots for Rossi in the west). I was eyeballing my ankle flexion, I don't think its very impressive (fore lift) but will still get that number for you. Anyway, back to the boots, we ground the living crap out of the shell to get me in but after three trips to the fitting room though very cold (I ski with Mufflers and Batteries most days, of course they come off for race runs) they are the best fit I've ever had. We fit the boot so I could roll my ankles in the boot (twist my ankle, especially my inside ankle), I'm not locked down around the ankle but very snug fit around the heel and mid foot, good room in the toe box. Had to take a little material off the Zeppa as the top of my toes where hitting the top of the shell. We took as much material off the shell (left about 2 - 3 MM where structural integrity doesn't matter) and still had to lower the Zeppa about 1 - 2 MM. Just FYI as I believe the boot and fit has dramatically increased my ski/snow feel this year, I'm skiing faster in courses, wish I was in better shape (had pneumonia all of December, completely blew my conditioning coming into the season) as faster/weaker is not a good thing IMHO. I've been real selective about my Master racing, have skipped a bunch of races and have to make a decision about the Western Regionals coming in two weeks at PC (Payday for SuperG, no biggie, CB's for GS, real biggie and Picaboo's for Slalom, semi-biggie).
post #32 of 52
Are you saying you took the toelift out ? What is Zeppa ?
post #33 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biowolf
Are you saying you took the toelift out ? What is Zeppa ?
Hey WOLF! Happy New Year and how ya been?

Yes, I took out a 4MM Shim from the heel and a 6MM shim from the toe (from between the plate and the binding). I can't BELIEVE what a difference the plus 2MM RAMP made in how the skis behaved. Taking the shims out and getting me to the stock delta, just plate/binding made the skis rip where before they were too hard to get them out away from me and bend them. It was a wild ride and I couldn't stand or stack the way I normally do, my CM had to be moved back to a critcal balance position leaving no room for error to hook up the skis - didn't like it. It was worth the experiment though.

Zeppa is the same as the boot board, sorry, should just call it boot board. Some folks call the Zeppa the boot board RAMP angle (delta) but I don't think that is correct use of the word.

Good to hear from you. We've been busy, working it hard and making some progress.
post #34 of 52

Guess it's the indian.

22-24 degrees.
post #35 of 52
Gary, could you please tell me what is the difference in height between the heel and toe of a FKS 155 binding? This is what people call delta. It is expressed in mm's. It is not the binding ramp, though.

Thanks,
Jamie
post #36 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by sywsyw
Gary, could you please tell me what is the difference in height between the heel and toe of a FKS 155 binding? This is what people call delta. It is expressed in mm's. It is not the binding ramp, though.

Thanks,
Jamie
I'm on the phone with Jeff Butz. Most people refer to this as RAMP angle but is usually measured/expressed in MM's, not degrees, you're right. While he is measuring this for your guestion, Butz says people call this stuff all sorts of things. So I guess one man's ramp is another man's delta depending on who you are talking to.

The "Stand Height" by FIS rules is the total height of the ski, plate, binding not including the boot. It is the measurement form the bottom of the boot to the bottom of the ski. This is a 55 MM max. FIS "Stand Height" and for Juniors its 45MM (J3 and below). That was a bit off topic. Just so we have all the elements and no confusion about what we are talking about.

The FKS 155 with plate, no shims in the heel is 5MM higher in the heel than toe. He has pair of 181 WC on the bench with FKS 155 Binding and RK Plate and the "Stand Height" stock is

Heel is 47 MM

Toe is 43 MM

This is affected by the thicknes of the ski at the points that are measured. So for different length ski and different size boots there can 1MM plus or minus.

The measurement the FIS takes with the Calipers to the inside of the boot is up to 45MM (this from the bottom of the boot to whatever you have inside the boot at center point of the heel) and on top of the Stand Height of the ski/binding/plate, etc. it can be up 100MM (Max out in boot and stand height).

Hope this helps.
post #37 of 52
Thanks Gary. The delta is 5mm. This is what i wanted to know. The delta is the difference in height between the heel and the toe and is expressed in mm's.
Binding ramp is same as zeppa-difference in height between the heel and toe divided by distance between the two measurement points and expressed in degrees.


Could you tell me if with the new plate on the 9S the delta remains constant (without a lifter)? My marker plate is 2mm higher in the front. This is important. What lifters are available for the fks? how thick are they?

Thans again,
Jamie
post #38 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by sywsyw
Thanks Gary. The delta is 5mm. This is what i wanted to know. The delta is the difference in height between the heel and the toe and is expressed in mm's.
Binding ramp is same as zeppa-difference in height between the heel and toe divided by distance between the two measurement points and expressed in degrees.


Could you tell me if with the new plate on the 9S the delta remains constant (without a lifter)? My marker plate is 2mm higher in the front. This is important. What lifters are available for the fks? how thick are they?

Thans again,
Jamie
I'll check with Jeff tomorrow, he's got plenty of new 9S's in there and will have him measure a pair without shims. You are asking about the T-Box plate, right? As for shims, the "Look" shims work with the FKS system. You can get from 2MM, 4MM and 6MM that I know of, there may be more sizes available.
post #39 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Dranow
I'll check with Jeff tomorrow, he's got plenty of new 9S's in there and will have him measure a pair without shims. You are asking about the T-Box plate, right? As for shims, the "Look" shims work with the FKS system. You can get from 2MM, 4MM and 6MM that I know of, there may be more sizes available.
yes, i am interested in the t-box plate
post #40 of 52
5mm Delta on the FKS? Well that would explain Saturday...

I thought my P18 and FKS bindings in thier unaltered state were at 0 delta, while it certainly appeared that my Marker bindings had 5mm toe down. So I tried a 5 mil shim on the markers toes. That actually puts me 1 mil above my 9X racing skis. Trying to ski bumps on that was a wild bucking bronco ride and several times I felt like I was going to wheelie over backwards. Now I know why. Anyway, I got my 4 mil kit for the Dynastars today, and we finally have enough snow that I may be able to use them for a few runs without fear of total base annihilation. Race tomorrow. Just put on a nice layer of HF7. Yeah baby.
post #41 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic
5mm Delta on the FKS? Well that would explain Saturday...

I thought my P18 and FKS bindings in thier unaltered state were at 0 delta, while it certainly appeared that my Marker bindings had 5mm toe down. So I tried a 5 mil shim on the markers toes. That actually puts me 1 mil above my 9X racing skis. Trying to ski bumps on that was a wild bucking bronco ride and several times I felt like I was going to wheelie over backwards. Now I know why. Anyway, I got my 4 mil kit for the Dynastars today, and we finally have enough snow that I may be able to use them for a few runs without fear of total base annihilation. Race tomorrow. Just put on a nice layer of HF7. Yeah baby.
Amzaing how messing around with the RAMP, Delta, whatever, and it makes the ski behave, eh? Good luck in your race, kick some butt!
post #42 of 52
Pierre,
I just raised my toe on the Axial2 that comes with the Z9 4mm. The new intergrated system is mounted with machine screws, I believe in sizes 4 and 5. I had Jim Deines (sp) at Precision Ski in Frisco do the work. He needed to fabricate the screws to make it work. I talked with the tech guys at Rossi and as of now there are no plans for an after market lift kit for this product. If you decide on the Z9 it was worth the effort to install the toe cheese.

Chuck
post #43 of 52
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckc
Pierre,
I just raised my toe on the Axial2 that comes with the Z9 4mm. The new intergrated system is mounted with machine screws, I believe in sizes 4 and 5. I had Jim Deines (sp) at Precision Ski in Frisco do the work. He needed to fabricate the screws to make it work. I talked with the tech guys at Rossi and as of now there are no plans for an after market lift kit for this product. If you decide on the Z9 it was worth the effort to install the toe cheese.

Chuck
Thank you for this info.
post #44 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Dranow
As for shims, the "Look" shims work with the FKS system. You can get from 2MM, 4MM and 6MM that I know of, there may be more sizes available.
Do you know where to get them from ? I don't race but use Look and Rossi turntable bindings (Look P12 lifter) on all my skis. The delta from toe to heel is 6-7 mm in all my bindings (heel is taller). This is too much delta for me. I went to the local ski shop to get a 3-4 mm toe shim but they didn't have right length screws and long story short I still don' thave this done. If there is a version straight from the manufacturer, that would be awesome.
post #45 of 52
Raj,
If you have the Rossi Axial or Axial 2 binding as well with the FKS race binding Rossi does make a lift kit for the toe. They run aprox $20. These kits come with the extended screws. Contact Rossi or a well stocked ski shop that carries Rossi products should do the trick. This kit however will not work with the Z9 due to the use of machine screws. A Racers Edge shop in Breckenridge has these kits.

Chuck
post #46 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Dranow
I'll check with Jeff tomorrow, he's got plenty of new 9S's in there and will have him measure a pair without shims. You are asking about the T-Box plate, right? As for shims, the "Look" shims work with the FKS system. You can get from 2MM, 4MM and 6MM that I know of, there may be more sizes available.
i'm still waiting for your response, Gary. Yes it's the T-Box plate i am interested in.
post #47 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by sywsyw
i'm still waiting for your response, Gary. Yes it's the T-Box plate i am interested in.
Oh damn, dude. I've been so busy that I have forgot to get this handled. I will talk with Jeffrey tomorrow and get you the information, looks like its going to be snowing so us racers will be hiding inside, waxing and tuning and waiting for the hard stuff again, so I'll have the time.

SORRY!!!
post #48 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by raj
Do you know where to get them from ? I don't race but use Look and Rossi turntable bindings (Look P12 lifter) on all my skis. The delta from toe to heel is 6-7 mm in all my bindings (heel is taller). This is too much delta for me. I went to the local ski shop to get a 3-4 mm toe shim but they didn't have right length screws and long story short I still don' thave this done. If there is a version straight from the manufacturer, that would be awesome.
Raj, sorry for the slow response. I get mine out of the Rossi race room and I know they've all been given out to the racers. I will check with Jeffrey Butz, my service guy

PODIUM SKI SERVICE, PARK CITY, UT.

and see if he can get them.

Again, sorry I've been absent from this thread
post #49 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Dranow
Oh damn, dude. I've been so busy that I have forgot to get this handled. I will talk with Jeffrey tomorrow and get you the information, looks like its going to be snowing so us racers will be hiding inside, waxing and tuning and waiting for the hard stuff again, so I'll have the time.

SORRY!!!
No problem. I am sure you will know the answer.

Btw, i would like to ask you something else. I posted this on another forum, but you know a lot about Rossis so i hope you can help.
I need some info on the 07 9S WC 155. I was told that the sidecut will be straighter... possible construction change as well. What can you tell me about it? I am interested in sidecut ( i want to know how much straighter it is going to be) and in construction (will it be stiffer or softer?).

This is important b/c i want to know if i should go with this year's model or wait for next year's version.

I can't find anything on this ski now. Not even a picture

Thanks again,
Jamie
post #50 of 52
Just happen to be working on that myself. I'm trying to get a pair of the new GS skis (showing up at the WC) for the NASTAR CHAMPS.

We just got in a pair of 9s WC T-box that don't have the shims in, as soon as we get the bindings on I'll get you the Stand Height.

At least we know the graphics look like (at least on the GS ski)



I'll poke around and see if I can get some specs on both the GS offering and the Slalom ski. I do know that they will be taking the WC construction down to at least the 175cm ski next year, this year it was only offered in the 181 - 193cm skis, the 175cm is the same as last year's construction (more of a Jr. Ski).

Will get back to you on both fronts as soon as I can, the stand height will be done by Monday for sure. Thanks for your patience.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sywsyw
No problem. I am sure you will know the answer.

Btw, i would like to ask you something else. I posted this on another forum, but you know a lot about Rossis so i hope you can help.
I need some info on the 07 9S WC 155. I was told that the sidecut will be straighter... possible construction change as well. What can you tell me about it? I am interested in sidecut ( i want to know how much straighter it is going to be) and in construction (will it be stiffer or softer?).

This is important b/c i want to know if i should go with this year's model or wait for next year's version.

I can't find anything on this ski now. Not even a picture

Thanks again,
Jamie
post #51 of 52
Gary - any idea of how much Delta the system binding on the new Radical R11 has. I was blown away by this ski. Did some of my best bump skiing ever. I felt so in balance. I am wondering if it may have had the 8mm Delta of the older Pivot bindings?

Also, tell your boys at Rossi to make a Race Stock Cheater GS ski. I love my 9X, but I'd also like a pair in say 175 with a 17m turn radius.
post #52 of 52
You're mounting bindings on skis, NOT setting valve timing in an '84 Maserati Biturbo....
Jean-Claude Killy once broke on of his skiis during a practice run.
His racer-chasseur came running out to the base area with a new set, and hurriedly went about removing his bindings from the old skiis.
when the racer-chasseur asked "Where do you want them mounted?"
Jean-Claude replied, simply:
"On The Top"

(Excerpt taken from "Vlad's Incredible But True Stories Of Alpine Skiing", Henry Holt pub., copyright 1998, all rights reserved)
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