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Video For Analysis: More Carving From Heluva (watch for updates)

post #1 of 95
Thread Starter 
Well, I have been working on many things that were brought up in the previous thread. I broke them down into a few things.

1) Hands need to be more dynamic, and actually using a pole plant.
2) My upper body needs to move up much less intransition, and start moving down the fall line more than it is, as well as stop crunching/hunching.
3) I need to continue to create some counter toward the bottom of the turn and top of the next in order to keep my inside ski on the snow (lifted as a result of following my skis).
4) My stance for slalom needs to narrow up in order to be more effective in the course.

There are many areas that I still need to work on, but the newer video show me using my hands slightly more and not rising up as much (still there a lot) in my transitions. The old habbits however are still there... I need more time on snow "thinking" cross under, versus cross over.

Also posted is a clip of me skiing on my GS skis. It shows little hand use (hands do come together more when you give me two sticks and a flag to turn around) and a lot of other bad habbits that will come out in discussion I am sure... The skis are 182cm Elan GSX WC. Both videos were shot on the same head wall which is probably around a 30+/- degree pitch near the bottom.

Skiing on the slalom skis:
SL Skiing

Skiing on the giant slalom skis:
GS Skiing

Slow Motion Clips:
Slow Motion GS and SL

Neither clip has much regard for turn size that I will be making in a course because I wanted to keep them carved and not looking really sloppy (things get messy looking when you carve them too tight at that high of speeds). Since it is not skiing in a course (which I did in GS today with some success) I figured that turn shape did not matter too much.

As a final note, I will probably update this thread from time to time as I get new video that shows some sort of visible improvement in my skiing. This update doesn't show as much as I would like, but I promised more video, so here it is. I would like to thank everyone who has helped out so far. There was a lot of time and effort put into the other threads by many posters. It has been VERY helpful and excellent for my skiing.

Later

GREG

EDIT 1: Organization credit (as well as a few of those things I happen to be working on) for this post goes to Gary Dranow .
post #2 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier
I need more time on snow "thinking" cross under, versus cross over.

Yep, Use that pop to squirt the skis through to the other side, not up. Glue those feet down. Nice angulation!!!
post #3 of 95
Why is Cross Over so undesired? It appears to me the carves made while employing the undesired up- pop are still very good. Is Cross Under faster in the course and as a result what must be strived for.

As the angulation increases and counter occurs , you're going to be low, I'm a "dummy" and can't understand how you still move the hips laterally across the skis without rising to some degree from the body position at the end of the turn. When you create big edge angles you are pretty low to the snow? When you release and go the other way how can you avoid coming up out of it a bit?

Consider the source, what I know and apparently understand about this is very confused.
post #4 of 95

A good question needing context, is up really up and away?

Quote:
Originally Posted by roundturns
Why is Cross Over so undesired? It appears to me the carves made while employing the undesired up- pop are still very good. Is Cross Under faster in the course and as a result what must be strived for.

As the angulation increases and counter occurs , you're going to be low, I'm a "dummy" and can't understand how you still move the hips laterally across the skis without rising to some degree from the body position at the end of the turn. When you create big edge angles you are pretty low to the snow? When you release and go the other way how can you avoid coming up out of it a bit?

Consider the source, what I know and apparently understand about this is very confused.
Its all relative my dear Mr. Watson. Yes, you are correct that in a turn where the hips are close to the snow and there are HUGE edge angles the CM will have to move upwards as it crosses over from one turn to the next. But letting the energy from that turn dissipate upwards away from the snow is not desirable, if it can be helped. How are the forces redirected along the desired path and vector? Active absorption of the energy release by either relaxing the muscles in the legs and pelvis or actively pulling the legs up (contracting the hamstrings and core muscles ballistically) during the transition phase of the turn. Its a lot like skiing moguls without the bumps, the energy release from the edged ski bending in its arc creates the imaginary terrain or bump to be absorbed. Of course there is more (such as projecting the CM downhill into the new turn, stabilizing pole plants, inclination, blah, blah) but I don't want to exceed the scope of your very good question.
post #5 of 95
To Gary's point, huge edge angles are required in order for significant pop to be required. For the skiing that Helluva is doing, he should be able to move his hips across the skis without his head gaining altitude by shortening his inside leg and lengthening his outside leg appropriately. This is easier to do when the hips are moving forward on a diagonal to the inside versus laterally to the inside. For most of us mere mortals, this is easier said than done.
post #6 of 95
I think the racing focus on early-weight-transfer moves is contributing to your pop, Gregg. You're standing up on the new outside ski mostly. You can see the inside ski come off the ground in several of the turns, more often in turns to your left than in turns to your right. In a couple, both skis come off the ground. You may need the high edge angles for racing (I'm no racer and know nothing about race tactics), but when not in the gates, you should be progressively increasing and decreasing edge angles at the beginning and ends of turns. The lack of this modulation also sets you up for the pop-ups.

Try riding the old outside ski into the new turn until you've started to engage the new set of edges. This is sort-of White Pass turnish without the dramatic jump to the new outside ski. Try letting the turn put more and more pressure on the outside ski rather than jumping onto it at the very beginning.
post #7 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kneale Brownson
I think the racing focus on early-weight-transfer moves is contributing to your pop, Gregg. You're standing up on the new outside ski mostly. You can see the inside ski come off the ground in several of the turns, more often in turns to your left than in turns to your right. In a couple, both skis come off the ground. You may need the high edge angles for racing (I'm no racer and know nothing about race tactics), but when not in the gates, you should be progressively increasing and decreasing edge angles at the beginning and ends of turns. The lack of this modulation also sets you up for the pop-ups.
greg - I'm no MA person - I "see" very little detail in anything unless some kind person gets a red pen & marks it for me...

but kneale says you STAND on the outside ski....

I am also no instructor/race coach but...

Now I know that if I try (emphasis because I so rarely do it right) to do ILE then one of my potential problem areas is trying to STAND on that ski....
If I do it right i simply feel the outside edge of that ski engaged in snow before transition & then start to trnsfer a little pressure to that foot it rolls itself to pronation & I am sending me downhill in a more controlled manner that keeps me connected to snow....

Ask RICK - I think he understands my babbles & he certainly explains it all better
post #8 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by therusty
To Gary's point, huge edge angles are required in order for significant pop to be required. For the skiing that Helluva is doing, he should be able to move his hips across the skis without his head gaining altitude by shortening his inside leg and lengthening his outside leg appropriately. This is easier to do when the hips are moving forward on a diagonal to the inside versus laterally to the inside. For most of us mere mortals, this is easier said than done.
This is not necessarily true. I largely depends on body shape and flexiblilty. If you have someone with a big gut and less than 10 degrees of ankle flexion they are not going to compress near as much and may require up and over from far lower angles than a skinny little runt athelete.
post #9 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Dranow
Its all relative my dear Mr. Watson. Yes, you are correct that in a turn where the hips are close to the snow and there are HUGE edge angles the CM will have to move upwards as it crosses over from one turn to the next. But letting the energy from that turn dissipate upwards away from the snow is not desirable, if it can be helped. How are the forces redirected along the desired path and vector? Active absorption of the energy release by either relaxing the muscles in the legs and pelvis or actively pulling the legs up (contracting the hamstrings and core muscles ballistically) during the transition phase of the turn. Its a lot like skiing moguls without the bumps, the energy release from the edged ski bending in its arc creates the imaginary terrain or bump to be absorbed. Of course there is more (such as projecting the CM downhill into the new turn, stabilizing pole plants, inclination, blah, blah) but I don't want to exceed the scope of your very good question.
Ok Gary I understand what you are saying about the absorption but I kinda want to be ahead of my skis when that rebound happens. I want that rebound to sling my chubby cheeks towards the falline and apex of the next turn. In other words I want that rebound as a way cool gas pedal. Remember I have no prescribed path I must follow like a gate.

Sunday I was on a pair of P60 slalom skis and the damn rebound seemed to be comming back at me from the tips. I ended up absorbing instead of accelerating across the fall line. I felt the bindings were a little to far to the rear. It was frustrating to not have the gas pedal in the right place. Have you had this happen before and what was the problem? Comming from telemark I doubt I was leveraging the tips. I did not have this problem on a pair of Zenith Z9's. They rocketed me across the fall line in tight carves.

I guess I am just not satisfied with not getting everything out of a ski. Seems like the P60 with a tighter side cut and more power should deliver more and since I want more I am not satisfied without trying again.

The Z9's were170cm and the P60's were like 160. I am 215lbs.
post #10 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre
This is not necessarily true. I largely depends on body shape and flexiblilty. If you have someone with a big gut and less than 10 degrees of ankle flexion they are not going to compress near as much and may require up and over from far lower angles than a skinny little runt athelete.
That's cool Pierre!
I'm going to use that in my level 3 exam !? Eh, maybe not - I think they'd rather call me fatso and flunk me. I wouldn't call Heluva a skinny little runt (he might hurt me), but he does look athletic enough that HE has no excuse for getting rid of the pop.
post #11 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre
Ok Gary I understand what you are saying about the absorption but I kinda want to be ahead of my skis when that rebound happens. I want that rebound to sling my chubby cheeks towards the falline and apex of the next turn. In other words I want that rebound as a way cool gas pedal. Remember I have no prescribed path I must follow like a gate.

Sunday I was on a pair of P60 slalom skis and the damn rebound seemed to be comming back at me from the tips. I ended up absorbing instead of accelerating across the fall line. I felt the bindings were a little to far to the rear. It was frustrating to not have the gas pedal in the right place. Have you had this happen before and what was the problem? Comming from telemark I doubt I was leveraging the tips. I did not have this problem on a pair of Zenith Z9's. They rocketed me across the fall line in tight carves.

I guess I am just not satisfied with not getting everything out of a ski. Seems like the P60 with a tighter side cut and more power should deliver more and since I want more I am not satisfied without trying again.

The Z9's were170cm and the P60's were like 160. I am 215lbs.
YOU BET I HAVE HAD THAT HAPPEN! I love the use of the concept of "gas pedal" which brings me to RAMP, Binding placement and ski length. Being a REALLY big guy, 6'1", 230 LBS with no equipment on, I can very easily over load the fronts of my Slalom skis. When I ski on 155's it is too funny, I've got to move my bindings back 2 inches just to get my whole edge on the snow (I never ski 155's unless I'm screwing around, obviously).

Anyway, I purposely left out a few things in the response above as it wasn't really asked
Quote:
(such as projecting the CM downhill into the new turn, stabilizing pole plants, inclination, blah, blah)
and agree with you that we have to project out in front of the turn our the rebound will end up launching us. Being ahead of the skis, if I understand you, will allow the skis to move across, underneath us and out to the side as our CM moves diagonally down hill to the new turn (as TheRusty noted very well). So what makes it difficult for us to keep the snap moving along the snow in the direction we want?

Many times in slalom it is the equipment set up. Short skis for big guys are problem finding the sweet spot generally and with the 165 the tune is critical and once that is set for the racer's skill and general conditions RAMP is where we find the "Gas Pedal".

I know I'm getting a little off subject of the post but when doing MA we, as coaches and instructors cannot ignore the impact of the equipment on the subject's turns. Canting is a simple example. Canting is a problem that is fairly easy to recognize. A racer that needs a 4MM lift under the front binding is harder to recognize and may take feed back from the athlete to really figure out if he simply needs detune the front 5 CM's of his skis or he really needs to "add pedal" to his RAMP.

Boots play a big part in this and each racer should know what RAMP his boot boards have them at so they can determine if adjustments need to be made under the bindings, heel, toe or both, keeping the FIS limits in mind, of course.

For instance, the Nordica Dobie has a 14+ degree toe negative RAMP before you get started. My Rossi's were half that before I started working on stuff. I found that on my GS boards I was good (could find the sweet spot naturally) but had to add 4MM under the front binding of my Slalom skis to get them to hook up the way I liked. I tried 6MM and it was too much, I was hyper loading the tips and without the any they were sluggish at the top of the turn getting me to rock a bit to work my ski through the turn, thereby losing ski/snow contact on steeper terrain and higher speeds.

Just for background I ski with a .50 bottom and .93 side bevel (or .87 depending which way you look at it). I do ski with my bindings set to TDC center line of my boots. I don't like having my bindings fore or aft on any of my skis, I'd rather work with RAMP.

So the moral of this story is that Slalom skis, especially depending on the size and level of the skier are not always set up for the particular skier out of the box.

As we look at Heluva's video (which I have not MA'd yet, I want to take my time as I expect to see some real differences from the video and my original MA) do we see anything that would indicate equipment issues or are they purely technical.

We already know from Greg's report that his cants are flat, one side possibly .5 degrees out. Sounds good. I'll bet he has tested his skis with different RAMP angles and binding placement. Let's ask him just for giggles

Greg?
post #12 of 95
Wait a minute Gary. Lets take this discussion of ramp and equipment to a new thread.
post #13 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre
Wait a minute Gary. Lets take this discussion of ramp and equipment to a new thread.
Its already out there (Okay, maybe its not), I was simply suggesting we look at the whole picture when doing MA, especially when looking at slalom technique. We need not delve into it further in this thread. I'd still like to hear a little about Greg's setup before doing my MA, however. If its already in one of the three threads, let me know and I will go look at it.

Whoops, Pierre just wanted to get into this in more detail. We moved it to here

Sorry I misunderstood, Pierre, and thanks for opening up the discussion in the other thread!
post #14 of 95
When I watched the slo mo's I thought it looked like when skiing on the GS skis, Heluva's down hill leg was extended further than when he was on his SL's. The basis to bring this up was a reference in a different thread to Hobart and Hobart's conviction that in both SL and GS turns, the hips are low and the downhill leg is very extended creating big edging.

I think the skiing displayed is really top notch. Plus he's skiing on a surface that is probably as hard as marble and carving the he!! out of it.

These videos are great, and the comments and inputs from those of you that have the ability to critique the high level of skiing presented here is really good stuff . Heluva is doing a lot of us a good service by putting himself on video.
post #15 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by therusty
I wouldn't call Heluva a skinny little runt (he might hurt me), but he does look athletic enough that HE has no excuse for getting rid of the pop.
I had more of the skinny kid running gates in the outrigger back seat carve mode in mind.
post #16 of 95
Thread Starter 
So, for clarification, I have played around with ramp angle in the past. When I used to ski my 155's I would use either a perfectly flat ramp, or ramp up slightly in the toe to get forward pressure. When I was on my Elan's I combined it with a slightly rearward mount (anyone familiar with a Salomon PowerAxe SL plate will know that if you have a small boot size it is easy to change your orientation over the plate). I decided this year, since I had never skied 165's regularly that I would ramp at a "normal" angle, which in this case is either flat or whatever the Salomon ramp is on the S914 FIS binding. It has the 4mm shim in the back, but I think that shim just puts you flat, but it may be at a VERY low rap anlge forward.

My alignment has been done (although probably should be done again soon, and will be done again next season). The boots are Dobermann 150's, with a lift on the bottom to bring them up to spec. I don't think that they were modified (meaning no base canting)... so technically they should be running flat. One of my legs was between 0 and .5 degrees off, but It hink we opted to leave it alone, unless it was causing a problem... and no one ever has seen a problem... (so far).

My build is 5' 7", 160lbs. I have very little body fat (last time I was tested was 7%). I work out most of the year, interrupted only by skiing (although I still try to hit the gym). I max on bench around 225, rep 175, squat 315ish (depending on how well I ate that day), as well as work a ton of core/ab/back exercises for the purpose of ski racing and skiing. I wouldn't classify me as a "skinny little runt" (although it has happened - I used to be), but I am certainly not an out of shape skier... So I guess therusty is right, that I do in fact have no excuses... bummer huh.

roundturns: Thanks for the compliments. It was interesting that you noted my GS skiing... GS has always been my stronger event (last season I raced I was placing top 10's and top 15's consistently), but when I took last year off from racing to train I focused a lot on slalom, so I think I lost some of my GS skill that I had back then. I am still more at home in a GS course than just about anywhere else. That is primarily why I have been videoing and posting mostly slalom footage, as that is one area that I know I am weak in (although compared to some people I race against ALL of my skiing is weak - the last season I raced one of our faster competitors was Tom Cochran - yes those Cochrans...). I doubt I will ever be as fast as people like that, but I don't mind trying...

I guess that is about all the info you guys need to do your worst. All of this is very helpful by the way. I just went back and compared the first thread's videos with this thread, and the difference is quite impressive. I owe it all to those who made comments in the threads. Hopefully by the end of the season I will have something that can be used as a REAL REFERENCE video, versus just an MA video. (If you guys are lucky, and my gf lets me take the camera, I might get footage of me skiing something like the chutes off Mount Baldy... Yes Gary, I am coming to Utah.)

Later

GREG
post #17 of 95
Quote:
Yes Gary, I am coming to Utah -Helvua
Zen Ve must ski!
post #18 of 95
Greg,

Still looking good!

If you ask me, stance could still be quite a bit narrower in SL. Watch some videos of top guys like Rocca and you'll see. A narrower stance will help you be less truck-like in the gates and ski a straighter line. Wide legs = more distance having to be cleared = round line.

I still think you're following your skis...

As for the transition, it seems to be very aggressive and you seem to pop upward and lose snow contact. I was just helping a friend last night with similar issues. What seemed to work was asking him to think about skiing Z's instead of S's. Instead of launching up and into the next turn, you just let it run longer and feel the fronts of your boots.

Keep up the good work and let me know if this helps...
post #19 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by D(C)
Greg,

Watch some videos of top guys like Rocca and you'll see. A narrower stance will help you be less truck-like in the gates and ski a straighter line. Wide legs = more distance having to be cleared = round line.
...
Of course, Manfred Pranger became a top WC sl skier with just that turn. Quite a show, a total aggressive freak out in the starting gate followed by beautiful round turns. It always amazed me he was fast, with that outside leg going twice as far as the inside.

Haven't seen much of him lately so Greg is probably right.
post #20 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by newfydog
Of course, Manfred Pranger became a top WC sl skier with just that turn. Quite a show, a total aggressive freak out in the starting gate followed by beautiful round turns. It always amazed me he was fast, with that outside leg going twice as far as the inside.

Haven't seen much of him lately so Greg is probably right.
The Austrians seem to be the only ones still using a wider stance. There is more than one way to skin a cat...

But a narrower stance is an easy way to ski less distance.
post #21 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by newfydog
Of course, Manfred Pranger became a top WC sl skier with just that turn. Quite a show, a total aggressive freak out in the starting gate followed by beautiful round turns. It always amazed me he was fast, with that outside leg going twice as far as the inside.

Haven't seen much of him lately so Greg is probably right.
Both Manfred Pranger and Kalle Palander have very similar stances and both are quite good at slalom. Benni Raich also uses a very wide track to great success.

As for Manfred here is his finish at Wegen, probably the toughest test on the Slalom circuit yet this year

16 4 50624PRANGER Manfred 1978 AUT 52.29 52.70 1:44.99 15.90

He's still out there and can still ski, true, he hasn't had a great season to date.

I still have to do my MA and have had a hard time getting left alone to give it the attention it deserves. I'm not totally sold on the narrowing of the track thing, but I do need to see the video before I really jump in. The new slalom turn has the outside ski passing well below the gate with the inside knee knocking it down. The racer is coming up under the gate rather than a shallower line barely clearing the ankles (when they can, that is). A wide track promotes a strong finish to the turn and allows for greater articulation of the inside knee/ankle/foot/ski. It also allows for greater independent leg action and adjustments of weight bias moment to moment. Yes, I agree with you guys, one can get too wide to the point that the athlete eventually gets inside ski dominant, not good. I'm not sure Heluva is there (just from what I remember of his older videos).

Oh, and another thing to consider, as has been mentioned before is the athlete's stature. A taller racer like Raich, Pallendar, will tend to have a wider stance. Bode is certainly an exception to that rule with a relatively narrow track, but the other guys are pretty wide. Ever see Walchhofer ski slalom? Now that's wide Greg is not super tall (about the size of Blardone, a great template for him in GS), a narrower stance may be called for simply based on physic.
post #22 of 95
Your skis are very nervous. A smooth, single arc per turn is not achieved.
post #23 of 95
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by whygimf
Your skis are very nervous. A smooth, single arc per turn is not achieved.
Can you elaborate?
post #24 of 95
Watch your slow motion video.
post #25 of 95
Thread Starter 
Believe it or not, I have seen them a few times, and I was actually there while they were being filmed. I already know what you're referring to. I am curious what you think the nervousness you are seeing is caused by, and where on the ski it is originating from.
Later
GREG

BTW, what are your qualifications for analysis?
post #26 of 95
Greg is being too polite to say this, so I will.

I just rewatched all that video and have absolutely no clue what the troll means by "nervous" skis. Of course, I'm completely unqualified, but if you are going to make such a bizarre claim you should probably try to back it up with more than 3 words. Thanks.
post #27 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier
I already know what you're referring to. I am curious what you think the nervousness you are seeing is caused by, and where on the ski it is originating from.
Later
GREG

BTW, what are your qualifications for analysis?
I don't believe it is originating from a certain point on the ski - I'm certain it pertains to your movement through the turn (timing) and your pressure down onto the edge (grinding) through the arc, particularly in the fall line phase. Edges should appear like they're slicing through a turn, not mashing.

You're very edge heavy with the inside foot too.

Accuracy / Touch / Refinement / Rhythm. You're like a bull in a china closet. No offence intended. Work with the ski, don't overpower it. And no, this doesn't mean to become passive.

My Qual for Anal? Sheez, Helluva.... OK ... A continuosly active, full time salaried racing coach in my 34th season. USSA Int Cert, FIS TD, Ex-PSIA III.
post #28 of 95
whygimf I think he was asking because you are not listed in the MA quals at top of instruction page....
post #29 of 95
Thread Starter 
I am curious about the comment you made on the inside foot, as it has little weight on it for the majority of each turn.

As for the arcs, they are actually carved clean - two slices through the snow. There is a lot of vibration in the skis (especially at the tips) from the speed I am traveling and the terrain I am skiing on (it is pretty rough), but when you look at the arcs on the snow, you cannot see anything that would indicate that the skis are not making clean arcs.

I am fairly hard on my edges, but that is something that I have picked up from racing...

Later

GREG

BTW, The reason I asked about your experience, was that nothing was listed in your profile and you weren't on the page the disski referred to. With your answers/replies being so short it is a little hard to determine what kind of advice I am really getting and what perspective it is coming from (normally I wouldn't care but the shortness prompted the question).
post #30 of 95
Greg, I haven't enjoyed watching a ski video that much in some time. (The GS one) Truly beautiful, even from my comparitively unqualified eye. It REALLY makes me want to go skiing, as those are my favorite type of turns to make. I hope I get the opportunity to ski with you at some point.
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