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Line Compare video

post #1 of 22
Thread Starter 
http://media.putfile.com/Line-Compare

Two skiers, same speed thru course
Low risk slow line vs. high risk fast line
post #2 of 22
For me at least it finishes buffering runs for 1/100th of second then stops. Have tried it repeatedly on different sessions. If anybody else gets this to work let me know, want to see it, should be an excellent study on rise lines, coming from behind or taking it deep.
post #3 of 22
I don't even see the videos or link at all...?
post #4 of 22
I see nothing in Foxfire.

Tried IE and it shows a small box with a red X in it.
post #5 of 22
Weird. IE 5 (Mac) likely won't show a thing!
post #6 of 22
Why is that link in an image tag?
http://media.putfile.com/Line-Compare

Anywho, is it just me or is there a bit more than a difference in line going on here?

-The "low" skier is finishing the turn with edge angles as low as or lower than the "high" skier, which makes no sense unless the "low" skier is on shorter radius boards.
-In a related vein, the "low" skier isn't skiing much straighter through the transition than the "high" skier, which is why he isn't any faster, and which defeats the purpose of taking the "low" line.

I guess this illustrates that "low" isn't fast. Straight and low is fast, provided you can finish the turn in the appropriate location.
post #7 of 22
I can see it fine.....

Nice Arc...
post #8 of 22
The link in Skiingman's post works for me. It looks to me as though the "fast" skier makes a quicker turn entry, dives downhill to get ahead, and then has to brake some while the "slow" skier shows turn entry patience and basically maintains the same speed through his line. An interesting bit of video artistry. Thanks, Arcmeister.
post #9 of 22
I don't know but I much prefer the faster skier. The slower skier seems to skid more (although it is hard to see), but what I really don't like is how stiff and static he (or she) is.
post #10 of 22
Tom - you mean the faster skier(speed-across-snow wise) who is skiing a slower line to make same speed-down-hill wise?

If so i agree - otherwise I see it the other way
post #11 of 22
Very nice video work. I wonder how it is made since I cannot find any other overlapping stuff on it. Not even in the lift!?!

IMO it looks like the SL (faster) skier has skis with tighter turn radius. Its also a very nice example of the fact that proper carving is not slowing you down much. He could also be heavier, have properly waxed skis or maybe the video is slowed down on the FL skier.
post #12 of 22
What the heck do any of you mean by "fast" skier? They both get from A to B in the same time. Thats the same speed through the course. I thought that was the point...

The "high" skier appears faster across the hill because he completes the turn in the appropriate location, the "low" skier does not.
post #13 of 22
I've got it off the tag, just not something I'd want to comment on in any detail (later edit, couldn't help myself, did make comments). Like the idea but the turns are way too pretty to give any indication of what a racer would achieve with the highline versus taking it deep. (I'm not saying this skier can't or doesn't race but in this video the turns are not indicative of what a racer in gates would exhibit and perhaps I'm missing the point of the post having a stilted perspective) Certainly two different skiers based on their skill could ski the same time on either line (sking the slow line fast or taking it deep), the elite racer, moving their CM down course on that terrain and that set would go much faster taking it deeper than the skier on the highline exhibiting the up motion between turns. Since Dartfish if started for each run at the same moment will keep the runs in "real time" these/this skier is skiing both lines approximately the same time for the section shown.

Edit, I just noticed the Archmeister stated "same speed thru course", yes indeed. I just don't see the point of the video as the skier taking it a bit straighter is skiing very passively making it a non-risk line. A racer would have his skis farther out to the side and in the fall line longer finishing his turn below the gate then making a very active X-through (moving the CM through the transition relatively level with the slope) allowing his skis to hunt the fall line again. The skier on the "high risk line" is just cruising, fairly narrow stance and keeps his CM very close to his base. Kinda of defeats the purpose of taking a more aggressive line. Not trying to be a PITA, just struggling to find the point of the post and see what is expressed in the two line approaches. In other words, based on the skiing exhibited neither is high risk (taking it deep). Don't hate me

Edit; thinking about it, the if the video was intended to simply show a high rise line versus low rise line run without all the other implications, yes you can see the two different lines, a good use of Dartfish or V1pro.
post #14 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcmeister


Two skiers, same speed thru course
Low risk slow line vs. high risk fast line
will you describe what you mean by low risk high risk?
thanks
post #15 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryel
will you describe what you mean by low risk high risk?
thanks
If you were looking at two skiers actually racing this set there are any number of tactical approaches to this section. Here Arcmeister presents two of the many permutations. A high line (low Risk), where the skier finishes his turn after the gate with his/her skis directed at a vector above the next gate before he makes his X-over. The direct line (as this skier does not let his turns run out at all, but is called high Risk in this example) initiates his turn much closer to the gate and keeps his skis closer to the fall line in between gates (lower rise line). In race conditions the racer who is taking the straighter (lower) line could end up getting late or low at subsequent sections having to make extreme athletic moves to keep on a good tactical line, therefore, theoretically higher risk. There are trade offs for both approaches and it is the racer who takes the best blend somewhere between too high and too straight while exercising the best edge control throughout the run wins. These are tactical line decisions that the racer must execute at speed, section by section and sometimes gate by gate.

Edit; There is another consideration to line besides the pure tactical decision. That is the physical size of the racer. In certain situations the bigger/taller skier can ski a higher line, or has to, and can still carry sufficient speed through a section. The smaller frame skier, especially if on shorter skis, can take straigher line (GS example, Blardone (5'7") Vs. Pallander (6'2")). The two body types can carry almost identical time through a section with the different approaches for a host of reasons. If, however, the bigger racer can take the same line as the smaller racer his mass will be an advantage with equal edging skills (Miller (6'2", 220 lbs) at his best in GS compared to Blardone, Rhalves (5'8") and a host of shorter, smaller racers). In both cases it is how they take their speed from one section to the next is of great consideration (such as from a steep pitch onto a flat section). The last piece to the equation if strength, agility and fitness. Racers in better physical condition, all things being equal, can take more chances (ski higher risk, faster lines) and have better outcomes (Rhalves).
post #16 of 22
Sorry, I didnt realize that it was a racing track.... what was I thinking . Anyway, its funny that the original post indicates that the FL should be high risk although he is moving slower. Not down the track but compared to the snow. IMO going faster should be more riskful. If there was no slowing down of the FL skier in the video production stage it is a bit strange that they both advance through the track at same pace....
post #17 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by skiingman
What the heck do any of you mean by "fast" skier? They both get from A to B in the same time. Thats the same speed through the course. I thought that was the point...
To me, the "fast" skier is the one who keeps pulling ahead but then gets overtaken. I think that was the point.
post #18 of 22
Gary I like your first post a lot.

I think that both skiers could be faster through the section, especially the "straighter line" skier. It looks like the stright line skier is skiing intentionally straight yet fluid, and the round line skier is skiing intentionally round at the top of the turn. Due to this fact the smoother straight line skier will be faster because of line. If the turnier skier were to "get into" the turn sooner versus trying to make an extra round line, that line would be much faster. Conversely, if the straight line skier were to take a more aggressive path (getting their CM ahead of their skis and further inside the turn) that path would be much, much faster; and much more risky.

I am assuming that the point of the video was the illustrate what Kneale noted above. I also think that this is very open to manipulation by whoever happens to be doing the demostration... and at this point it remains to be unseen what the exact purpose of the two runs is. It is however, quite interesting to look at.

Later

GREG
post #19 of 22
Gary's edit above brings up even more really good information. I would add that the condition of the snow also plays into how the low/high line scenarios will play out. Softer snow might reward the higher line that gets more of the turning done in a rounder and longer radius fashion. Hard snow that isn't as easily "bruised" might allow the strong skier to ski a shorter radius turn further down the rise line and take a shorter overall path without sacrificing speed in the turn. Removing just a couple feet from the path length through each gate can have a substantial effect over several dozen gates.

I still think it would be very interesting to find out what kind of skis these guys are on. I would offhand guess the "low" skier (slow?) is on shorter radius boards than the rounder and "higher" skier. If the "low" skier skied less round and completed the turn a bit earlier and then floated, it'd be very interesting to see if he'd be faster down the hill. Its possible here that the snow wouldn't play well with that.
post #20 of 22
disski: Tom - you mean the faster skier(speed-across-snow wise) who is skiing a slower line to make same speed-down-hill wise?

Yes, I meant the skier who travels longer, therefore does the "slow line" fast, which makes him faster (in terms of speed of travel). Confusing enough?

Gary,

I doubt this video has anything to do with racing. To me it shows the old "ski the slow line fast" approach. I still think the skier that takes the "fast line" is too static for my liking.
post #21 of 22
Thread Starter 
I'll re-label them as:

A longer, rounder, low-risk line, carrying more speed.
Low-risk as in a rounder line offers more options to adjust or alter line.

A shorter, straighter, high-risk line, carrying less speed.
High-risk as in a straighter offers fewer options to alter or adjust line.

I created this with Dartfish (used in last Olympic skiing telecasts)which allows marking common points from two sycronized clips that software then uses to recognise background as a constant and superimpose only the movement.

These two runs just happened to show very different lines from two skiers who were both producing carved turns.
Just thought it to be interesting two lines so different each netted the same gate-to-gate times.
post #22 of 22
Thank you for making and posting this video. Im very impressed since I have been fooling arround with editing software lately myself. I have never heared of Dartfish but on the other hand it sounds like a very advanced program. I was thinking that if you put up a video camera on a tirpod and then overlapped the two skiers in Vegas for instance you would get the same effect but that would offcourse double everything else on the video as well.
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