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Increasing side bevel

post #1 of 23
Thread Starter 
I want to change my side bevel from 1 degrees to 2 degrees. Should I do it myself or bring it to a shop? Is a base grind needed first? Is it simply a matter of taking a 2 degree file guide and sharpening the edges with that?
post #2 of 23
it's easy. color the side ege with some appropriate pen, then file with a coarse file until the color is all gone. then progress to finer file or stone. base edge is an independant thing.
post #3 of 23
Agree with snowdan. You can increase or even decrease your side edge bevel. You can only increase your base edge bevel, to decrease it you need to take off base material, requiring a stone grind.
post #4 of 23
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the advice!
post #5 of 23
But no one confirmed your suspicion about the base grind. You must be absolutely certain that your base if perfectly flat before you attempt the use of any side edge guide tools - why? - because all of these tools use your BASE as a guide. If your base is screwed then your side edges will be too.

The tip to use a Sharpie felt tip pen is a good one and in my opinion a must. I always use one and I've been doing tunes forever (almost). It's really the best way to keep track of your work.

BTW - you should really cut back the sidewall material to do an effective edge bevel set. You have 2 choices - sidewall skyver or a pansar file set to a more aggressive bevel angle (say 5, 6, or 7 degrees).

If you're not really familiar with this stuff you may be better off taking them to a shop.
post #6 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by moguljunkie
I want to change my side bevel from 1 degrees to 2 degrees. Should I do it myself or bring it to a shop? Is a base grind needed first? Is it simply a matter of taking a 2 degree file guide and sharpening the edges with that?
What skis are you discussing here?
post #7 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noodler
why? - because all of these tools use your BASE as a guide. If your base is screwed then your side edges will be too.
Exactly why I like the TOKO WC Base Bevel tool. Particularly with skis that are cancave in tip & tail (Many atomics). spans the base and any concavity!

http://www.reliableracing.com/detail...&category=2000
post #8 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman
Exactly why I like the TOKO WC Base Bevel tool. Particularly with skis that are cancave in tip & tail (Many atomics). spans the base and any concavity!

http://www.reliableracing.com/detail...&category=2000
A-man;

How does that help with the side edge bevel guide?
post #9 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgeib
A-man;

How does that help with the side edge bevel guide?
Sorry! my Bad1 misread! I was thinking base edge. I use the TOKO tool because the base concavity has no effect on the TOKO tool!

What I should have said is, the base being flat across the ski has little to do with how your side edge beveler wil work, unless your skis is wavy down the length of the ski which I have never seen. Usually you have concave tips & tails. I have seen skis that are base high in the center due to poor layup when the ski was pressed together. This can have some effect on the side edge bevel( minimally, but the base edge bevel is where it really screws things up, hence the TOKO tool!

Even if the base is not perfectly flat (and it does not have to be as long as it is flat about an 1" in from each edge, not only will it ski fine but tyour side edge beveler will work fine.
post #10 of 23
A-man - I took your advice last season and picked up the Toko base beveler - very nice.

But I'm going to disagree with you on the state of the base affecting the side edge guide tools. My SVST Pro Edge Beveler reaches deeper than 1" into the base. Obviously the base would have to be pretty messed up to seriously impact the side edge tool, but my point is that everyone needs to be aware of this fact since the side edge tools are using the base as a guide. It's a good idea to make sure the base is nice and flat first.
post #11 of 23
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman
What skis are you discussing here?
These are Elan 666's. They're demo skis that I got from dawgcatching. I trust his tuning skills, so I'm confident that the base is flat. If a sidewall planer is needed to go to 2 degrees, I may bring it to the shop and then just maintain it myself.
post #12 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by moguljunkie
These are Elan 666's. They're demo skis that I got from dawgcatching. I trust his tuning skills, so I'm confident that the base is flat. If a sidewall planer is needed to go to 2 degrees, I may bring it to the shop and then just maintain it myself.
It sounds like you've come to a good conclusion on this.

FWIW - I have received Elans from 3 different shops. The M666 from CO Ski & Golf needed a complete overhaul - there was almost nothing right on these skis. The M777 from Dawg's shop was in pretty good shape, but it wasn't perfect (I'm not sure if it was shop tuned before it was sent out the door). The S12 from Dick Durrance's store in Aspen was as close to perfect as any ski I've ever received (for base flatness and edge bevels).

Note that the most common thing that I see on "machine tuned" skis is a lack of prep work at the tip and the tails. Almost 100% of the time the base is quite concave with railed edges through these turned up ski sections. I've never run a machine stone grinder, but they must not be able to handle the "curves" of a ski very well. I absolutely hate how "hooky" most machine tuned skis feel to me - once I'm done with them they initiate and release much more smoothly.
post #13 of 23
Noodler can you "adjust" whatever skis I get for ESA please
post #14 of 23
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noodler

I have received Elans from 3 different shops.
New or used? If new, I doubt the ski shop has anything to do with it.

Also, already skied the 666's once and didn't find them hooky, so that's good, at least.
post #15 of 23
You don't really need a planer for this. A utility knive or a metal scraper
pulled along at an angle above that 2 degrees would work fine for
this one operation. You can open the blade on the U. K. about halfway,
put on the edge and tilt up. If you need in the future, then get some
planing tool.
post #16 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noodler
A-man - I took your advice last season and picked up the Toko base beveler - very nice.

But I'm going to disagree with you on the state of the base affecting the side edge guide tools. My SVST Pro Edge Beveler reaches deeper than 1" into the base. Obviously the base would have to be pretty messed up to seriously impact the side edge tool, but my point is that everyone needs to be aware of this fact since the side edge tools are using the base as a guide. It's a good idea to make sure the base is nice and flat first.
I agree, I just responded because you said your base ahd to be 'Perfectly" flat to have your side edge beveler work right.

I just really meant like you said your bases would have to be pretty damn messed up to affect the side edge beveler.

Most shops that machinme tune skis don't knock off the hanging burr. The hanging burr not the concavity in tip & tail is waht makes the skis hooky & unpredictable. Or not enough base bevel in tip & tail due to the geoumetry caused by the concavity on the machine or handtuned.
post #17 of 23
A-man - I have 0 experience with the tuning machines that most shops use to automate the process. Am I correct about them not being able to handle the the up turn at the tip and tail correctly?

I see what you're saying about the edge finishing too. Every machine job I've had leaves a pattern on the edges that's quite noticeable. When I finish an edge with the Moonflex stuff the edges are polished mirror smooth and there is absolutely no burr left on the edge. I'm assuming that a perfectly polished edge from a hand tune is better than what can come off these machines - is that really the case?
post #18 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by moguljunkie
New or used? If new, I doubt the ski shop has anything to do with it.

Also, already skied the 666's once and didn't find them hooky, so that's good, at least.
All skis were new, but I agree that most likely the shops never touched the skis before shipping (but I'll check and find out).
post #19 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by disski
Noodler can you "adjust" whatever skis I get for ESA please
I'd be happy to take a look at your skis (and anyone else at ESA) and give you an assessment. I plan on bringing most of my tuning gear along with me (since I'm driving). I'm just spoiled about having a fresh tune on my skis every day I use them .
post #20 of 23
Yeah - so am I - but instructor usually does them (actually every 2-3 days)...

After my experience with hire skis in Argentiere I'm a bit : about the whole thing.....

At least if I could beg a tune at the start of a hire I would know they were OK then from the tune perspective... (I'm a bit reliant on ski feel - & hence tune - so it can cause me GREAT havoc to have anything wrong with an edge)
post #21 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noodler
A-man - I have 0 experience with the tuning machines that most shops use to automate the process. Am I correct about them not being able to handle the the up turn at the tip and tail correctly?

I see what you're saying about the edge finishing too. Every machine job I've had leaves a pattern on the edges that's quite noticeable. When I finish an edge with the Moonflex stuff the edges are polished mirror smooth and there is absolutely no burr left on the edge. I'm assuming that a perfectly polished edge from a hand tune is better than what can come off these machines - is that really the case?
If they use a ceramic disc grinder on the side edge, this is the same finish as the factory. I know both Atomic & Volkl use ceramic disc finish on the side edge.. the edge has a circular pattern on it, and this is the finish of choice. If your polishing that out, you are doing alot of unnecessary work and goofing up the ceramic disk finish. all ou have to do to remove the burr i am talking about is to run an arkansas stone flat against the base edge when your ski is up on edge using your thumb as a guide on the top (side wall) of your ski with medium pressure on or two passes.

I don't have any thing done to my skis but a simple base grind & then I the rest. this is instead of haveing all bevesl done by machine.
post #22 of 23
A-man - so what is it about a ceramic disk finish (and the pattern it leaves) that makes it better than a mirror smooth Moonflex finish? Is this similar to the situation where a structured base is faster than a non-structured base?
post #23 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noodler
A-man - so what is it about a ceramic disk finish (and the pattern it leaves) that makes it better than a mirror smooth Moonflex finish? Is this similar to the situation where a structured base is faster than a non-structured base?
It don' t think it is a smoother or shiny is faster issue, i think it has to do with increased edge grip on hard & icy snow. wintersteiger & montana both claimit stays sharper longer & provides easier turning and more edge grip. Some of that may be marketing.

I do think all the skis that I have owned with ceramic disc finish, all of Atomics including the WC models have a softer feel when skiing but more edge grip then hand tunes.

But ince i don't have my own Ceramic disc grinder and can get anyone to tune my skis worth a damn, i do them by hand!

Go look at a new Atomic or Volkl edge you'll see the ceramic disc pattern on the edge clear as day! I am sure other manufacturers use it also!
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