New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Great All-Mountain Clinic - Page 11

post #301 of 328
Max, it was that comparison of the i.M88 to the B5 that got you into trouble with Uncle Crud...
post #302 of 328
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh
Thanks, onyxjl, that's interesting insight.

One of the tactical games that Rick and I played when we were skiing together a couple of weeks ago involved the transition. We played with different ways of having the weight move from one ski to the other, from weighted release (maintaining pressure on the old outside/new inside ski through transition to the new edges and almost to the fall line) to ILE (inside leg extension--pressing progressively on the old inside ski starting before the transition, effectively meaning that your weight is all there while you're "upside down" hanging on your downhill edges prior to reaching the fall line). It is not clear to me how these different transitional approaches are possible using the approach that you outline.

Are they?
The weighted release definitely is. It is a drill that must be mastered at some point in order to allow the feet to being to share the roles of stance and free foot.

ILE on the other hand has never brought up. One big idea in PMTS is that of float in transition. During this period the CM is transfering through neutral and into the new turn because we have removed the blocking support preventing it from moving down hill. If one were to load the inside ski prior to transition, thus indicating a transfer of support for the CM (blocking its motion down the hill), one would then need to immediately turn around and flex the stance leg again just to remove that support to allow the CM to move through the transition unhindered.

The may be misrepresenting ILE. I don't clearly understand how you can load the inside ski prior to the transition without also presenting a support that is blocking the CMs motion down the hill and thus requiring an up movement to transition into the new turn.

Also note that float does not mean disconnected from the snow. It means removing the support preventing the CM from moving down the hill. The skis still pass through 50/50 at neutral and feel very solidly connected to the snow.
post #303 of 328
onyxjl, I think you've got the legs reversed in your discussion of ILE above. It's the current inside leg extending and does not block you from transitioning, rather promotes it ...go easy on the extension when you try it, it's a subtle thing ...a little goes a long way.

Chris
post #304 of 328
Quote:
Originally Posted by onyxjl
The may be misrepresenting ILE.
Yep, sure is!!



Quote:
I don't clearly understand how you can load the inside ski prior to the transition without also presenting a support that is blocking the CMs motion down the hill and thus requiring an up movement to transition into the new turn.
Loading the old inside ski is exactly what you do when you relax the old outside ski in PMTS. Same deal. Without that loading the CM would not cross the skis, it would colapse into them. Downhill CM movement is only blocked if you transfer BALANCE to the old inside ski,,, not pressure. Verstehen?
post #305 of 328
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
Loading the old inside ski is exactly what you do when you relax the old outside ski in PMTS. Same deal. Without that loading the CM would not cross the skis, it would colapse into them. Downhill CM movement is only blocked if you transfer BALANCE to the old inside ski,,, not pressure. Verstehen?
Sounds good, I follow you. Why is it called inside leg extension then if you are retracting the outside leg? I assume there is some extension of the inside leg prior to the fall line?

If you extend the inside leg, even a little bit, aren't you raising the CM more than necessary through transition? Why would someone want to do that? When I go through transition my inside leg stays flexed until after neutral where it becomes the outside leg and begins to extend to maintain contact with the snow.

To answer SSH's question though, extension of any leg post fall line and pre-transition would not be part of PMTS.
post #306 of 328
Quote:
Originally Posted by onyxjl
Sounds good, I follow you. Why is it called inside leg extension then if you are retracting the outside leg? I assume there is some extension of the inside leg prior to the fall line?
In PMTS transitions the relaxation of the stance leg is the mechanism that transfers pressure to the old inside leg. In ILE the pushing down on the snow with the old inside leg is the transfer mechanism. The old outside leg relaxes as a result of the load being removed, it doesn't cause it. As the CM then begins to travel across the skis the new inside foot is tipped into the turn to assist in maintaining similar edge angles, and to open the door to high edge angles. In execution it looks very similar to what you guys do, but the sensation is very different.

Quote:
If you extend the inside leg, even a little bit, aren't you raising the CM more than necessary through transition? Why would someone want to do that?
It takes very little push to facilitate the transfer, so very little up motion is visable. The reason one would do a ILE transition as opposed to a PMTS transition is that it provides earlier stable platform on the new stance ski, and a finer feel and control of the edge roll from one turn into the next. ILE eliminates the resultant drop of the CM associated with Outside Leg Relaxation, as the old inside leg catches and attempts to develop support for the load that's thrust upon it. That drop and catch creates a lag period between pressure transfer and fine edge feel and control.

Don't know where you make your turns, but if you ever get to Summit County, Colorado, give me a yell, I'd be happy to show you on snow. Half a run and you'd understand what I'm talking about.
post #307 of 328
onyx ... somewhere else I described what happens when I try these turns & (normally) stuff it up.... I have 3 options

1) I try to STAND on that old inside ski.... if I do this it does not work very well - I sort of POP up & it feels disconnected

2) do it right - just get some pressure on that outside edge of old inside (yes it still is inside when i start) ski & then allow building of such as I allow myself to head down the hill by control of other leg & that leg together.. (pressure on foot drives it naturally from supination into pronation)... VERY connected to snow feel... in fact this is how I try to control it.. sort of feel connection with snow & maintain that rather than PUSHING etc...

3) do the relaxing of old outside leg a bit fast & it almost feels like I trip over my own skis as I pick them up again : I do NOT like this!
post #308 of 328
oops - ignore mine & read ricks it is always better when he describes this stuff
post #309 of 328
Quote:
Originally Posted by disski
oops - ignore mine & read ricks it is always better when he describes this stuff
NONSENSE!!

Your comments are excellent, Disski. In fact, you've expanded here on my simplified version with your explanation of how you can control the speed of CM crossover through the amount and/or rate of pressure transfer via ILE you employ. Nice job, very accurate!
post #310 of 328
yeah but half the population don't understand my explanations while yours are crystal clear & concise!
post #311 of 328
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
Don't know where you make your turns, but if you ever get to Summit County, Colorado, give me a yell, I'd be happy to show you on snow. Half a run and you'd understand what I'm talking about.
Sure, I'll take you up on that if/when I get back out to Summit County. A good demonstration clears up a lot of misconception.

I understand the premise from your last post. I think it is pretty clear what the intent behind the movement is. The explanation sounds reasonable. I will give it a try next time I ski and try to capture the subtle difference you are describing.

I have pulled a bit of a : at your mention of the drop and catch lag period from the PMTS transition. In my skiing, when I use flexion of the outside leg to transition, I do not feel that lag period at all. Is this something that is possibly affected by a narrower or wider stance? I will give the difference a try and see if the comparison helps me notice something that I wasn't before.
post #312 of 328
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh
Max, it was that comparison of the i.M88 to the B5 that got you into trouble with Uncle Crud...
there you go, giving away my secrets!

Max, the negativity is toward Mr Harb's gospel preaching, when the gospel is incomplete and the preacher knows it. the rest, well ssh just gave it away for me.
post #313 of 328
Quote:
Originally Posted by onyxjl
I have pulled a bit of a : at your mention of the drop and catch lag period from the PMTS transition. In my skiing, when I use flexion of the outside leg to transition, I do not feel that lag period at all. Is this something that is possibly affected by a narrower or wider stance? I will give the difference a try and see if the comparison helps me notice something that I wasn't before.
Yes, that's the thing to do,,, compare. It's a sensation I didn't really have a comprehension of till I experienced the sensation contrast with ILE. It's like the hidden image in a picture. Once discovered it for ever more jumps right out at you.
post #314 of 328
Quote:
Originally Posted by onyxjl
Sure, I'll take you up on that if/when I get back out to Summit County. A good demonstration clears up a lot of misconception.

I understand the premise from your last post. I think it is pretty clear what the intent behind the movement is. The explanation sounds reasonable. I will give it a try next time I ski and try to capture the subtle difference you are describing.

I have pulled a bit of a : at your mention of the drop and catch lag period from the PMTS transition. In my skiing, when I use flexion of the outside leg to transition, I do not feel that lag period at all. Is this something that is possibly affected by a narrower or wider stance? I will give the difference a try and see if the comparison helps me notice something that I wasn't before.

onyx - I think it is relative....
I was told to try the ILE by my instructor(only he did not describe it like that because he knows I do not have good sense of extension flexion.... he described a ski edge type thing & asked me to "play" with it on easy terrain & see what i could do.... it evolved to ILE with work ....

He told me it would give me a nicer turn start & I was "whats wrong with this one?" "I'm just getting this one going" sort of thing

Once I had felt the ILE working properly a few times the other long turns feel bad.... because they lack that "connectedness" in comparison....

If I had not felt a different one I would probably think the originals were just fine & dandy thanks very much!
post #315 of 328
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
It takes very little push to facilitate the transfer, so very little up motion is visable.
Very little, indeed. In fact, it almost feels like an allow to me. In other words, just push my foot a little more into the snow. Gently and progressively. I think that an observer would have a hard time differentiating which I'm doing. Rick, what do you think about that statement?
post #316 of 328
Quote:
Originally Posted by disski
2) do it right - just get some pressure on that outside edge of old inside (yes it still is inside when i start) ski & then allow building of such as I allow myself to head down the hill by control of other leg & that leg together.. (pressure on foot drives it naturally from supination into pronation)... VERY connected to snow feel... in fact this is how I try to control it.. sort of feel connection with snow & maintain that rather than PUSHING etc...
disski, this is really great! It's a vernacular description of what so many of us have a difficult time describing in technical terms. Well done!

I find that ILE feels a bit more like pedaling a bike slightly uphill as a result of these sensations. I hope that makes as much sense as your paragraph does.
post #317 of 328
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh
Very little, indeed. In fact, it almost feels like an allow to me. In other words, just push my foot a little more into the snow. Gently and progressively. I think that an observer would have a hard time differentiating which I'm doing. Rick, what do you think about that statement?

that is how it feels to me steve.... hence my comment on "feeling" the snow with that outside ski edge.... it is so little more than the normal pressure on that part of my foot....

if I PUSH at all I have usually goofed...

Girl instructor I skied with had same feeling... we describe it as gently extending from that ski edge- rather than push off or stand on as the boys said....
post #318 of 328
oops comment on feeling snow is in other thread i think
post #319 of 328
Quote:
Originally Posted by disski
Girl instructor I skied with had same feeling... we describe it as gently extending from that ski edge- rather than push off or stand on as the boys said....

oh & of course extension is not up but in direction of(?? next turn) (?? how do I say this?? next transition??? )
post #320 of 328
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh
disski, this is really great! It's a vernacular description of what so many of us have a difficult time describing in technical terms. Well done!

I find that ILE feels a bit more like pedaling a bike slightly uphill as a result of these sensations. I hope that makes as much sense as your paragraph does.
I can't feel the extensions ... so I dunno.... bikes exist only as foot & butt pressure to me - so they have no connection to skiing....

My instructors original talk about ILE involved extending x while flexing y.... after he finished that he looked at my puzzled face & said "oh just try to start the turn by pushing on the old inside ski outside edge about here & feeling the snow CONSTANTLY while the skis travel away & back" "sort of try to even the pressure out for a bit..." play with it we will try it after that

I think I do sort of try to "even pressure" between feet to do it... and have body feel it is falling a tad downhill(ears)
post #321 of 328
Quote:
Originally Posted by disski
Girl instructor I skied with had same feeling... we describe it as gently extending from that ski edge- rather than push off or stand on as the boys said....
Another superb distinction! Good on ya, mate!
post #322 of 328
Quote:
Originally Posted by disski
oh & of course extension is not up but in direction of(?? next turn) (?? how do I say this?? next transition??? )
I usually say, "towards the center of the next turn." Does that work for you?
post #323 of 328
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh
Very little, indeed. In fact, it almost feels like an allow to me. In other words, just push my foot a little more into the snow. Gently and progressively. I think that an observer would have a hard time differentiating which I'm doing. Rick, what do you think about that statement?
Your statement is right on the money, Steve. It reflects what I saw in your skiing when you were doing ILE transitions at Breck,,, and it also mimics what I feel when I do them myself.
post #324 of 328
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh
I usually say, "towards the center of the next turn." Does that work for you?

yes....
post #325 of 328
So what is the verdict? Was this, in fact, a great all-mountain clinic?

I should have said something originally about performing equally poorly over a variety of conditions... yeah PMTS, I said it.

Later

GREG
post #326 of 328
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh
Another superb distinction! Good on ya, mate!

NOTE: - 2 girls with heads together = MUCH better than lots of boys
post #327 of 328
Ok let Pierre jump in here and give his two cents on PMTS.

Pierre finds nothing wrong at all with PMTS and in fact see many things within it as very positive developements. Do if fit well in the politics of PSIA? hell no, I have a problem with the "teach instructors to the test line". I am too far outside the box in many an instructors view.

What do I find about PMTS that I like the most. It cuts right through the BS in Movements Analysis in a way that I only find refreshing. The approach makes you sound like a broken record but its dead on. The real difference here is movements based instead of concepts based.

I very much like the approach that the cone of learning to ski and teach PMTS is truely upside down with a very simple straight forward approach to start and then progresses to much more versatility at the higher end. I do not find PMTS to be rigid at all.

PSIA is suppose to be an upside down cone but in practice its so broad that new instructors are all over the place and eventually narrow it down. That is opposite in actual practice from what is written.

I find my own philosophies in step with much of PMTS. Do I like PSIA? Yes there are things within the PSIA system that are fantastic but its much better suited for those who have a deep understanding.

Do I see PMTS as a shortcut for many skiers, Yes it would appeal greatly to about 60% of the skiing public.

I think Harald Harb is a talented thoughtful thinker who truely has something different. I also think he is a bit excentric and has about as much marketing sense as some other talents like George Bush, Tom Cruise, Eminemm, Barbara Striesand, Ray Naggin and Harry Belafonte.
post #328 of 328
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre
Ok let Pierre jump in here and give his two cents on PMTS.

Pierre finds nothing wrong at all with PMTS and in fact see many things within it as very positive developements. Do if fit well in the politics of PSIA? hell no, I have a problem with the "teach instructors to the test line". I am too far outside the box in many an instructors view.

What do I find about PMTS that I like the most. It cuts right through the BS in Movements Analysis in a way that I only find refreshing. The approach makes you sound like a broken record but its dead on. The real difference here is movements based instead of concepts based.

I very much like the approach that the cone of learning to ski and teach PMTS is truely upside down with a very simple straight forward approach to start and then progresses to much more versatility at the higher end. I do not find PMTS to be rigid at all.

PSIA is suppose to be an upside down cone but in practice its so broad that new instructors are all over the place and eventually narrow it down. That is opposite in actual practice from what is written.

I find my own philosophies in step with much of PMTS. Do I like PSIA? Yes there are things within the PSIA system that are fantastic but its much better suited for those who have a deep understanding.

Do I see PMTS as a shortcut for many skiers, Yes it would appeal greatly to about 60% of the skiing public.

I think Harald Harb is a talented thoughtful thinker who truely has something different. I also think he is a bit excentric and has about as much marketing sense as some other talents like George Bush, Tom Cruise, Eminemm, Barbara Striesand, Ray Naggin and Harry Belafonte.
Pierre,

Nice post! PMTS is easy to teach and it moves the student along quite nicely. Even people who are close to Harald find him difficult at times. But we try to overlook it because he does impart words of teaching wisdom.

RH
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching