or Connect
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Great All-Mountain Clinic - Page 6

post #151 of 328
Quote:
Originally Posted by Si
No, I guess I don't believe it's possible. You cannot apply a torque differentially to the tip. If you torque the tip to turn further into the turn and into the snow you are torquing the tail out of the turn and out of the snow.
This may be. I am responding because we're seeing it differently. I admit that I may be wrong.

I am thinking that, because the snow is compressible, that the tip can dig in further even as the tail retains its path and pressure. Perhaps this is not possible.

If it's not, I need to understand how it is that I leave clean arcs in the snow while I am actively applying rotary pressure with my quads/femur rotation. How do you think this is possible if not in the way that I think it is? Am I doing something that I don't know I'm doing? If so, what is it?

...and yes, these are honest questions. I do not know the answer.
post #152 of 328
Quote:
Originally Posted by disski
ummm I'm just going by the fact that I have never seen anyone make a series of turns through my fav tree run in a carve.... EVER... not ONE set of carved tracks....
Earlier we discussed that PMTS movements can be used to create turns that don't leave RR tracks.
post #153 of 328
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501
Earlier we discussed that PMTS movements can be used to create turns that don't leave RR tracks.
I get this. But, how do I quickly redirect the skis without pivoting them? This is what I do not get. How do I make a shorter turn than the sidecut radius plus edging in a given situation will allow?
post #154 of 328
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh
Because I don't believe you can. Example: Contest Bowl at Breck is a steep (45 degree-ish?) ungroomed slope. In some conditions, I would like to spend very limited time in the fall line. If I rely on tipping/edging exclusively on this terrain, I will drop approximately 20-25 feet per turn. I'd prefer not to use that much vertical per turn. So, I tighten the turn.

Are you suggesting that I can use pure tipping to turn more tightly than that?
I'm suggesting you can use PMTS movements to get nice tiny turns to get yourself down that slope.
post #155 of 328
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh
I get this. But, how do I quickly redirect the skis without pivoting them? This is what I do not get. How do I make a shorter turn than the sidecut radius plus edging in a given situation will allow?
By mastering and using PMTS movements. Again, go back to my ealier post which detailed a drill you can try. If you do a couple of runs using only those movements you should have a good idea of what we are talking about. It works.
post #156 of 328
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501
I'm suggesting you can use PMTS movements to get nice tiny turns to get yourself down that slope.
Fair enough. I admit that I don't get how this works. I'm not saying that you're wrong. I'm saying that I don't understand how. Can you help me understand it by any approach other than, "Read the book"?
post #157 of 328
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh
I admit that I've not had a PMTS lesson, clinic, or read the books. I may still do this at some point, but probably not this season (too much else to study!). I have tried to glean information from the RealSkiers and PMTS sites, but mostly unsuccessfully.
OK, now I see one of the problems we are having. I'm not an instructor of PMTS so I lack the ability to properly communicate the reasons why PMTS works. Given your background you will get a much better idea from the material (I'm not suggesting you run out and buy the books, just explaining that I won't be able to fill in for them). My skiing life is immersed in techique. I'm into PMTS, my kids race, and I have friends that are instructors. PMTS is different.
post #158 of 328
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501
By mastering and using PMTS movements. Again, go back to my ealier post which detailed a drill you can try. If you do a couple of runs using only those movements you should have a good idea of what we are talking about. It works.
Is this the drill?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501
Standing across a green slope with parallel skis I balance on the uphill edge of my uphill ski. I lighten (or lift) my downhill ski and tilt it to the LTE allowing my body to follow the tipping movement. My uphilll ski flattens as my body moves over the skis and then matches the edge angle of the downhill ski (which is about to become my new uphill ski). The uphill ski (new downhill ski) seeks the fall line and turns. I control the turn shape with the amount of tipping/flexing/counter/counter balance. You can then link these turns sking down tight spaces without the need to twist or pivot your skis.
If so, I have done this quite a number of times. However, I think the "counter" that you discuss here is the rotary that brings the skis around faster. If not, I still do not see how this works. How is it possible to get the ski to turn tighter than it's turn radius without rotating it around the feet or allowing the tails to drift out?
post #159 of 328
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501
OK, now I see one of the problems we are having. I'm not an instructor of PMTS so I lack the ability to properly communicate the reasons why PMTS works. Given your background you will get a much better idea from the material (I'm not suggesting you run out and buy the books, just explaining that I won't be able to fill in for them). My skiing life is immersed in techique. I'm into PMTS, my kids race, and I have friends that are instructors. PMTS is different.
Fair enough...

Can't the primary movements be succinctly described? :
post #160 of 328
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh
Fair enough...

Can't the primary movements be succinctly described? :
The problem is you want the detailed how/why it works description which goes beyond my current level of expertise.
post #161 of 328
I really hate to do this....

http://www.harbskisystems.com/detpmts.htm

Yeah, its the "read the book" response, but if you have $30 to spend its probably the best way to get the straight from the source information.

You could also try asking your question on realskiers to Harald himself. I know this hasn't always worked out well in the past, but if you were to phrase the question just as you have here I think you would be well received. I would be dissapointed to see otherwise.

I echo Max_501 sentiments that I use the movements and have a decent understanding of the results they are trying to accomplish, but others are far more qualified to explain the specifics of the mechanics.
post #162 of 328
How about this:
Balance on stance foot
Tip free foot-controls edge angle of stance ski
Flex free leg-pressure control and allows greater tipping of free foot
Pull back free foot-pressure control and allows greater tipping of free foot

secondary movements, to complement the primary movements
Counter Balance- used to enhance balance on stance ski
Countering- used to complement Counter Balance

If you want more understanding, at some point you will have to read the books and do the exercises.
post #163 of 328
Fair enough. Between the various videos and books, then, I take it you'd suggest the instructors' manual?

Again, though, I'm primarily interested in what the primary movements are, at this point, not what they accomplish.

If I post this at RealSkiers and get the crap beat out of me, will you buy dinner at Snowbird?
post #164 of 328
Quote:
Originally Posted by MilesB
How about this:
Balance on stance foot
Tip free foot-controls edge angle of stance ski
Flex free leg-pressure control and allows greater tipping of free foot
Pull back free foot-pressure control and allows greater tipping of free foot

secondary movements, to complement the primary movements
Counter Balance- used to enhance balance on stance ski
Countering- used to complement Counter Balance

If you want more understanding, at some point you will have to read the books and do the exercises.
Thank you for taking the time, MilesB, especially after I ticked you off... I understand your final point. Thank you, again.
post #165 of 328
Thread Starter 
Quote:
However, I think the "counter" that you discuss here is the rotary that brings the skis around faster. If not, I still do not see how this works. How is it possible to get the ski to turn tighter than it's turn radius without rotating it around the feet or allowing the tails to drift out?
The skis' actual turning radius is not the design radius. The actual turn radius depends on how much reverse camber you put into the ski by laying it way over on edge and pressuring it. Look at the WC slalom races. Sure, some slippage, but no more than essential...carving is fast, skidding is slow. The two counters, counter balancing and counter facing are just to get more edge. There is no steering applied to the skis. This vid clip shows the counters... http://www.harbskisystems.com/olkm1.htm
Quote:
If I post this at RealSkiers and get the crap beat out of me....
It won't happen. No one who has asked an honest question without a contrary agenda has been treated with anything other than respect.


Ken
post #166 of 328
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoftSnowGuy
Look at the WC slalom races. .....
. There is no steering applied to the skis.
Ken

you gotta be joking right?
post #167 of 328
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoftSnowGuy
The skis' actual turning radius is not the design radius. The actual turn radius depends on how much reverse camber you put into the ski by laying it way over on edge and pressuring it. Look at the WC slalom races. Sure, some slippage, but no more than essential...carving is fast, skidding is slow. The two counters, counter balancing and counter facing are just to get more edge. There is no steering applied to the skis. This vid clip shows the counters... http://www.harbskisystems.com/olkm1.htm
There's a ton of rotary in that animation by the PSIA definition.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoftSnowGuy
It won't happen. No one who has asked an honest question without a contrary agenda has been treated with anything other than respect.
This is decidedly untrue. I have seen it happen a number of times with people that I know and have spoken with. Sorry, but that's the truth of the matter. I have enough to do without volunteering to get my head handed to me.
post #168 of 328
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoftSnowGuy
Look at the WC slalom races. Sure, some slippage, but no more than essential...carving is fast, skidding is slow. The two counters, counter balancing and counter facing are just to get more edge. There is no steering applied to the skis.
"Carving is fast, skidding is slow" is not the whole story. Plenty of ski instructors carve perfectly, but are slow gates. Flatter ski is fster than a more highly edged one, and WC skiers are sliding sideways on flat skis pretty fast. What's really remakable about it is that they can get them sliding sideways and then hook up cleanly, without chatter. Chatter is what happens when you edge too much and too late, and it's the slowest possible way to travel on skis. The apparently deliberate sliding that they are doing now is a hange form the past, and I suspect that some recent improvement in ski technology (along with superior athletic skills) is what allows them to get a carve going without chatter.
PMTS may be a good way to help intermediates lose their bad rotary habits, and HH may may have developed some excellent excercises (all of which I have seen used by PSIA Examiners), but any system that ignores one of the fundmental skills cannot be a rigorous technical analysis of high level skiing.

BK
post #169 of 328
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bode Klammer
PMTS may be a good way to help intermediates lose their bad rotary habits, and HH may may have developed some excellent excercises (all of which I have seen used by PSIA Examiners), but any system that ignores one of the fundmental skills cannot be a rigorous technical analysis of high level skiing.
Do you have first hand knowledge of PMTS to make such a specific statement?
post #170 of 328
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh
There's a ton of rotary in that animation by the PSIA definition.
OK, so now we can truly compare. Please describe the "ton" of rotary you are seeing.
post #171 of 328
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501
OK, so now we can truly compare. Please describe the "ton" of rotary you are seeing.
HH (I'm assuming) rotates his legs in his hip sockets on every turn. This is (again, by PSIA definition that I posted earlier) "rotary". To expand: his body stays straight down the fall line, while his skis turn from right to left. Given that his skis are connected to his feet and legs, his legs must rotate in the hip sockets. For some people, of course, they'll (incorrectly) rotate their hips or upper body, but HH clearly doesn't do that.
post #172 of 328
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501
OK, so now we can truly compare. Please describe the "ton" of rotary you are seeing.
In that video, Rocca's skis are in the air, and he's clearly rotating his legs to reach for the landing to finish his turn. You need to drink the Kool-Ade not to see it.

BK
post #173 of 328
Different video (and thread!), Bode. But, your point remains. For this thread, the video Bode is mentioning is in this RealSkiers thread: http://www.realskiers.com/pmtsforum/viewtopic.php?t=733

Just scroll down. Of course, Max_501 posted it there, so he knows the one.
post #174 of 328
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh
HH (I'm assuming) rotates his legs in his hip sockets on every turn. This is (again, by PSIA definition that I posted earlier) "rotary". To expand: his body stays straight down the fall line, while his skis turn from right to left. Given that his skis are connected to his feet and legs, his legs must rotate in the hip sockets. For some people, of course, they'll (incorrectly) rotate their hips or upper body, but HH clearly doesn't do that.
Again, definition differences. In PMTS that is inactive rotary meaning its a by product of other moves we do.
post #175 of 328
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bode Klammer
In that video, Rocca's skis are in the air, and he's clearly rotating his legs to reach for the landing to finish his turn. You need to drink the Kool-Ade not to see it.

BK
I he actively rotating his legs or is the rotation of product of other movements he is doing? I don't know Rocca so I can't ask him.
post #176 of 328
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501
I he actively rotating his legs or is the rotation of product of other movements he is doing? I don't know Rocca so I can't ask him.
If he is in the air, there is no resistance for his feet to be the start of the move, so it must be coming from higher up. Since the knees don't rotate in that direction, then it must be the hip joints.
post #177 of 328
BTW, I'd just like to say I am really appreciating this thread - it seems to be conducted in a polite manner.
I am learning things here, and I think many are. (and a lot of it appears to be very similar, just with different names)
post #178 of 328
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wear The Fox Hat
If he is in the air, there is no resistance for his feet to be the start of the move, so it must be coming from higher up. Since the knees don't rotate in that direction, then it must be the hip joints.
I'm not sure about this. He had 'counter' prior to launching which causes inactive rotation. Also, tipping causes inactive rotation as well. I wonder if he initiates from the foot or from the hip.
post #179 of 328
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501
I he actively rotating his legs or is the rotation of product of other movements he is doing? I don't know Rocca so I can't ask him.
Well, he's in the air, so it can't be sk-snow interaction causing that rotation. Maybe there's some aerodynamic forces causing it.

BK
post #180 of 328
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bode Klammer
Well, he's in the air, so it can't be sk-snow interaction causing that rotation. Maybe there's some aerodynamic forces causing it.

BK
Actually it could be caused by ski-snow interaction because the skis were on the snow while he was in a countered position before the launch and this countered position would cause some rotation once the skis left the ground. An unwinding type of motion.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching