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Speed control from the top of the arc? - Page 2

post #31 of 54
Steve, is she willing to spend a little time doing short turns outside the bumps to get the maneuver grooved? It alway helps my students. Much like the racer learning outside the course and applying it inside the course.
post #32 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo
... Nick was advocating strength in length at the apex to manage the forces that arise as we arc away. He wanted us to arc into the apex as well as away from it, to replace any tendency to use a pivot-entry with a progressive entry with the tails following the tips. (The positive engagement of the skis’ tips should draw you into the turn versus displacing the tails to start the turn. --PSIA Skiing Concepts 2005) The net result is better speed control through turn shape and better management of forces by being set up properly at the apex.
In that "apex" thread, you said you feel "weightless" at the apex. If you are weightless, why do you need "strength in length"?

BK
post #33 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro
Steve, is she willing to spend a little time doing short turns outside the bumps to get the maneuver grooved? It alway helps my students. Much like the racer learning outside the course and applying it inside the course.
Oh, yes! We spend most of the day on groomers. I agree.
post #34 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bode Klammer
In that "apex" thread, you said you feel "weightless" at the apex. If you are weightless, why do you need "strength in length"?

BK
To prepare for what's to come. Again getting back to this phase being called neutral (if you're so inclined), you're collecting yourself.
post #35 of 54
Bode, I agree with L7's answer.
post #36 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by L7
To prepare for what's to come. Again getting back to this phase being called neutral (if you're so inclined), you're collecting yourself.
Well said-your also setting yourself up for the skeletal structure to be aligned to deal with the forces of a turn as well as allow accurate and appropriate movements when needed not reactionary movements from unbalanced positions.
post #37 of 54
Nolo, L7, mikewil
In a GS turn (that is, not a turn on such steep terrain that that it is difficult to get to an early edge), where does the greatest edge angle occur? Where does the skier's greatest inclination occur? Where do you typically see the ski de-cambered by the greatest amount? What forces are acting on the skier at those points?

BK
post #38 of 54
Is this top of the arc stuff what Harald is calling "High C turns"? It sounds pretty similar, just got a different name.
post #39 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bode Klammer
Nolo, L7, mikewil
In a GS turn (that is, not a turn on such steep terrain that that it is difficult to get to an early edge), where does the greatest edge angle occur? Where does the skier's greatest inclination occur? Where do you typically see the ski de-cambered by the greatest amount? What forces are acting on the skier at those points?

BK
1) in the falline
2) top third of turn
3) bottom third of the turn force is the redirection of momentum
post #40 of 54
Bode there are too many variables to make a blanket statement about greatest pressure and highest edge angles. Offset, changes in slope angle, turn type, terrain, and route selection all contribute to where those things occur.

With so many tactical choices a cookie cutter approach to turn production fails every time.
post #41 of 54

No absolutes

Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro
Bode there are too many variables to make a blanket statement about greatest pressure and highest edge angles. Offset, changes in slope angle, turn type, terrain, and route selection all contribute to where those things occur.
Definitely would agree with this. As I was reading Bode's question I was watching a pre-production DVD the D-Team gave at us the Rocky Mountain Academy last week entitled "Skiing Concepts". It was put together by the team from this seasons fall training video at Copper and some other shots. In watching a variety of GS type turns you can see the answers to Bode's questions will vary with speed/turn radius/steepness/intent etc., etc.

As a buddy says-the only absolute is their are no absolutes in skiing.
post #42 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wear The Fox Hat
Is this top of the arc stuff what Harald is calling "High C turns"? It sounds pretty similar, just got a different name.
Yes, very much so. Harald recommends skiers learn to engage their edges early and carve the arc of the top of the turn to the fall line. The goal is for skiers to show their bases up the hill after transition and before the fall line.

The big thing that this requires is counter-balancing. More is necessary when less energy is carried through the transition. If you aren't familiar with the term of counter balancing, its the position a skier is in when they tip their skis on edge and then form an angulated position with their upperbody to maintain their balance without using an external support such as poles. More tipping requires more counter-balancing or you fall over. Counter-balancing is also the position instructors are promoting when they have students reach for their outside boot in a turn. When this skill is refined to a very high level, a skier can stand on a slope and roll from edge to edge without falling over. That is very difficult to do if you haven't ever tried it before.

The skier is not just inclinating at the top portion of the turn, they are also angulating in the idea of the "High C" portion of the turn.

Top of the turn, high C, early edge engagement is typically all referring to the same thing.
post #43 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by L7
To prepare for what's to come. Again getting back to this phase being called neutral (if you're so inclined), you're collecting yourself.
That doesn't really answer the question. At any point you should be prepared for what comes next, but that doesn't tell you what the pressure is at the moment. It's a lot like real life that way.

BK
post #44 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro
Bode there are too many variables to make a blanket statement about greatest pressure and highest edge angles. Offset, changes in slope angle, turn type, terrain, and route selection all contribute to where those things occur.

With so many tactical choices a cookie cutter approach to turn production fails every time.
Actually, if we couldn't generalize anout turns, PSIA and PMTS and all the rest would be out of business. It's true that steeps, bumps, powder and other variable conditions all change or disrupt optimal pressure management, but grooming eliminates all those variables. It's prett easy to generalize about GS turns on moderate pitches, which I assume is what we are taking about. There was nothing in that Nick Herrin article that started all this that suggested anything else.

BK
post #45 of 54
These were my questions:
In a GS turn (that is, not a turn on such steep terrain that that it is difficult to get to an early edge), where does the greatest edge angle occur? Where does the skier's greatest inclination occur? Where do you typically see the ski de-cambered by the greatest amount? What forces are acting on the skier at those points?
Here are the responses:
Quote:
Originally Posted by L7
1) in the falline
2) top third of turn
3) bottom third of the turn force is the redirection of momentum
I'm not exactly sure which answers go with which questions. Are you saying there is greater inclination at the top of the turn than in the fall line, but greater edge angle in the fall line than at the top? That implies that your center of mass is more inside at the top than at the fall line. That doesn't seem to nmake sense to me. it also doesn't match the diagrams (from Bob Barnes) in the PSIA-RM Level 3 sking descriptions. Those show the COM crossing the path of the skis (transition) and moving progressively inside the path of the skis until it reaches the fall line, where it begins to move back toward the skis. If the COM is inside the path of the skis, you are either resisting lateral (turning) forces,or releasing them. If you release them in the fall line, you may feel weightless, but you will end your turn and head directly down the fall line.

As far as redirection of momentum is concerned, all turning which affects the path of the center of mass (I'm excluding bracquage and pivot slips, which don't involve any lateral acceleration or affect the path of the COM) requires a change of momentum. That is what lateral acceleration is. In the old slalom J-turns, most of that acceleration was at the end of the turn, but in GS turns we typically try to get some turning going before the fall line.
You should really get in the gates sometime and try to vary where the maximum lateral forces occur, and try to relate that to which runs produce the fastest times.

BK
post #46 of 54
As long as someone mentioned PMTS, this thread http://www.realskiers.com/pmtsforum/viewtopic.php?t=733 has some video of Giorgio Rocca, apparently not using any rotary skills, and picture of Harald, apparently feeling weightless in the fall line. (Scroll down, don't open the link in the Realskiers thread.)
It reminds me of the guy whose wife catches him in bed with his girlfriend, so he asks her: "who are you going to believe, your loving husband or your lying eyes?"

BK
post #47 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bode Klammer

I'm not exactly sure which answers go with which questions. Are you saying there is greater inclination at the top of the turn than in the fall line, but greater edge angle in the fall line than at the top? That implies that your center of mass is more inside at the top than at the fall line.
I read that quick and answered quick and think I reversed a couple of them. I also thought the questions weren't asked that well and didn't bother answering that well.

You asked about most inclination, while I recognize you likely meant angle of lower body inclination I took it to mean most mass times angle. At the top the body can come in further without much need for angulation yet and more mass can be more inside as the skis will soon catch up.

Greatest edge angle as the skis are pointed down the falline by virtue of feet furthest from COG.

Greatest de camber at bottom of turn where forces have built.

I agree with Just another that there are many variations in a GS turn with speed, pitch and offset of gates. There also will be variation of where things will occur with speed pitch and offset. I think of falline often sort of like a sailer would think of wind direction vs apparent wind direction, things change with speed as the forces become offset. What doesn't really matter is what I see in terms of some abitrary point of reference, what does matter is what the student or athlete feels while performing the maneouver.

I haven't spent a lot of time being timed in GS course on modern skis but that doesn't mean I haven't spent lots of time being timed in GS or timing others in GS courses. Good skiing is still good skiing and good teaching is still not about breaking down the minutiae to analyse to death but about relaying ideas and skills to a student to feel and learn and apply in varied situations and adaptive ways.
post #48 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by L7
I read that quick and answered quick and think I reversed a couple of them. I also thought the questions weren't asked that well and didn't bother answering that well.
Those questions were simple, clear and designed to give you an opportunity to explain you ideas. By your own admission, you failed to do that, and now you complain that the questions were poor. You sound like those whiny kids I used to teach math to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by L7
I agree with Just another that there are many variations in a GS turn with speed, pitch and offset of gates. There also will be variation of where things will occur with speed pitch and offset. I think of falline often sort of like a sailer would think of wind direction vs apparent wind direction, things change with speed as the forces become offset. What doesn't really matter is what I see in terms of some abitrary point of reference, what does matter is what the student or athlete feels while performing the maneouver.

I haven't spent a lot of time being timed in GS course on modern skis but that doesn't mean I haven't spent lots of time being timed in GS or timing others in GS courses. Good skiing is still good skiing and good teaching is still not about breaking down the minutiae to analyse to death but about relaying ideas and skills to a student to feel and learn and apply in varied situations and adaptive wa
ys.
I don't know what any of that means, except that I agree that what an athlete feels is an essential part of learning to ski. But a competent coach needs to understand what it is that the athlete should feel under controlled conditions. Correcting a faulty analysis is hardly "analyzing to death."

Since you haven't spent enough time on modern skis, you can find a clear description of modern GS turns by Rob Butler (a CSIA Level 4 instructor) here: http://skitelevision.com/carving2.html

This is how he describes a GS turn:

"...focus on carving and generating pressure in the top half of the turn, releasing in the bottom half of the turn. And that may be a slightly different rhythm for you. If you’re new to this full on carving feeling, what you might be used to doing is generating pressure in the bottom half of the turn, and really applying the pressure at the bottom. When you start carving full on 100% with the new shape skis you want to back that up in the curve. You want the maximum pressure to develop in the top half.

Once again, increase the pressure in the top half, decrease the pressure in the bottom half. Extend in the top half, flex in the bottom half. This may be a little different rhythm than you’re used to using. Increase the pressure in the beginning of the turn, decrease the pressure in the end of the turn. And what that does is, that decrease helps to bring the skis up underneath and out the other side and you can switch your edges over and you’re on to the next turn carvin’ them up."

He ignores the effect of the pitch and gravity, which reduces pressure a little at the top, and decreases pressure at the bottom, but that effect is pretty small compared to the turning forces at high speeds on moderate pitches. Otherwise, that's exactly what I've been trying to say in all these posts. Build pressure by extension in the first third of the turn, get long and strong to resist pressure in the middle of the turn, release pressure to end the turn and change edges when your skis are light at the transition. You can release pressure by inside leg extension, retraction, high C (whatever that is) or weighted release, but that is still the essential pressure development in a GS turn. I can't believe anyone who has ever run a GS course in the last 10 years, or carved high speed long radius turns, would disagree with that.

On steep pitches, the movement pattern may be similar, but the pressure distribution is dominated by gravity. At the top of the turn, you need to extend to maintain contact with the snow, but you won't generate as much pressure as you do when you are resisting gravity at the bottom if the turn. You will also feel less pressure whenever you reach full extension before a steep fall line. (And just so the Kool-Ade drinkers don't feel left out, if you can't get enough pressure at the top of the turn, you need to steer your skis into the fall line.) In this kind of turn the center of mass takes a different path than it would on a GS turn, and it might even move directly and continuously down the hill. Momentum doesn't need to be "redirected" at all. The only thing necessry to feel increased pressure is contact with the snow that causes an acceleration (or deceleration).

BK
post #49 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bode Klammer
As long as someone mentioned PMTS, this thread http://www.realskiers.com/pmtsforum/viewtopic.php?t=733 has some video of Giorgio Rocca, apparently not using any rotary skills, and picture of Harald, apparently feeling weightless in the fall line. (Scroll down, don't open the link in the Realskiers thread.)
It reminds me of the guy whose wife catches him in bed with his girlfriend, so he asks her: "who are you going to believe, your loving husband or your lying eyes?"
Bode, thanks for that. Wow. Everything from stance width to what Rocca's actually doing. No wonder I'm confused!
post #50 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bode Klammer
This is how he describes a GS turn:

"...focus on carving and generating pressure in the top half of the turn, releasing in the bottom half of the turn. And that may be a slightly different rhythm for you. If you’re new to this full on carving feeling, what you might be used to doing is generating pressure in the bottom half of the turn, and really applying the pressure at the bottom. When you start carving full on 100% with the new shape skis you want to back that up in the curve. You want the maximum pressure to develop in the top half.



BK
that is what I have been taught (by Canadians hey! ) .... keep feeling for the snow ... & then at the bottom "suck up the pressure"..... & make damn sure I get skis back underneath me (I even steer them in there a bit! if needed)....

Now if i could just remember HOW the hell I am supposed to do that again
post #51 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by disski
that is what I have been taught (by Canadians hey! ) .... keep feeling for the snow ... & then at the bottom "suck up the pressure"..... & make damn sure I get skis back underneath me (I even steer them in there a bit! if needed)....

Now if i could just remember HOW the hell I am supposed to do that again
I know. It's all easier said than done. It's a lot like real life that way.

BK
post #52 of 54
BK, I don't disagree with you at all. It sounds quite similar to what Nick had to say too.

Where's the beef?
post #53 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh
Bode, thanks for that. Wow. Everything from stance width to what Rocca's actually doing. No wonder I'm confused!
Yuo don't need to be confused, you just have to understand what PMTS is, and what it is not. It can't provide accurate descriptions of high level skiing without torturing the definitions of words beyond recognition, but it does provide a coaching plan to help intermediates give up their bad rotary habits.

BK
post #54 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bode Klammer
Yuo don't need to be confused, you just have to understand what PMTS is, and what it is not. It can't provide accurate descriptions of high level skiing without torturing the definitions of words beyond recognition, but it does provide a coaching plan to help intermediates give up their bad rotary habits.
Thanks, BK. It has felt very semantic to me.
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