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changing radius mid turn.

post #1 of 24
Thread Starter 
Uncle Crud asks:

Is steering the only way to change radius mid-turn?
post #2 of 24
ok Dchan ... I'll play

more pressure, more bend = shorter radius


kiersten
post #3 of 24
DROP HIP IN = change FAST
post #4 of 24
Thread Starter 

My Answer

No.

Depending on what kind of turn you are in (skidded, carved, etc) there may be several options at your disposal.

tipping the ski to a higher or lower edge angle will affect a change in turn shape.

More pressure forward will cause the tips to bend more.

changing weight distribution between both skis might cause the skis to bend less or more affecting the turn radius.

relaxing the edges may allow the skis to drift changing the radius.

Any blend of these and many other skills can and will affect the radius of a turn mid turn or otherwise. so Steering is only one of many ways to affect the turn.

If you are balanced on your feet, you should be able to use all these skills at will.

HMM, "Skills at Will".... Where have I heard that before?

post #5 of 24
With enough hip and knee angulation on modern skis you should be able to cause the ski to corkscrew around until you, like the WallyWalloo bird, ski up your own a&& and disappear.

Back in the '90's when I was new to shaped skis, I demo'ed a pair and just about clicked out of both skis when I tried to use powerful knee and hip angulation to power a turn out of the skis. I did go over the "handle bars" performing the difficult to pull out "head plant" maneuver. It took me the better part of an hour to really figure out the skis. Then I loved 'em.

Mark
post #6 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by dchan
Uncle Crud asks:

Is steering the only way to change radius mid-turn?
: Out of context: . Why would Uncle Crud ask such a question? The answer is "Of course not." and I'm sure Uncle Crud knows it isn't.
post #7 of 24
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost
: Out of context: . Why would Uncle Crud ask such a question? The answer is "Of course not." and I'm sure Uncle Crud knows it isn't.
I'm sure he knows also. I'm guessing he was trying to get everyone to "think outside the box"

The question was posted as a single line in Help required coping with varied terrain/snow thread.

I just took the question and ran with it in a new thread so to not "hijack" that thread.

It's a great question for us to just consider. Especially those of us that are studying for exams and certifications. Keep expanding your thoughts and ideas so when the question comes up in your MA, you will have multiple options!
post #8 of 24
Ah, I see.

My deep snow skiing days are a distant memory, but as near as I recall the main means of changing turn shape was still tipping, only using what I'll call the "flex-radius", the skis decambered curve shape due to the action of snow on the bottom of the ski instead of the "sidecut" radius. BTW is there a proper term for this shape. Pressuring tips to force more bend into the ski in deep soft snow was always a little tricky for me. So was skiing stiff-tailed SG skis in "bottomless" powder.
post #9 of 24
What are the techniques for tightening the turn radius?

What are the techniques for lengthening it?
post #10 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by dchan
I'm sure he knows also. I'm guessing he was trying to get everyone to "think outside the box"
indeed I was. thank you, dchan!
post #11 of 24
in loose snow, crud/new mix or all new or all crud, if the crud portion is mainly cutup pow and not some sort of set-up snow,

I have found the following will allow tightening a turn mid-stream:

+ more angle more pressure -- amen, kiersten!

+ heel pressure, engaging tail more aggressively

+ aggressive softening of uphill/inside leg -- thanks weems ESA '04!
post #12 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh
What are the techniques for tightening the turn radius?

What are the techniques for lengthening it?
Do more, or less...............

Tighten:
Increase rate and intensity of movements increasing edge angles while pulling feet back stronger to increase tip engagement.

Lengthen:
If less edge will still hold, roll'em off a bit, else decrease rate and intensity of edging movements while allowing foot pressure to slide toward heels a bit.
post #13 of 24
Nicely said Arc. Do more, or do less. My way of saying this is "By changing what you are doing, the turn shape and radius changes."
post #14 of 24
Arc Says it best. I approach this concept from a musical perspective in lessons. Play or sing your song faster or slower, louder or softer. Our movements are our voices and instuments. Change the rhythm, change the turn shape. Something I'm always working on myself too. Later, RicB.
post #15 of 24
I have been debating this many times and I know there are "champions" that can do "anything" they want on skis but to my experiance once you make your turn, tightening the turn radius is easy, lengthening very difficult if not impossible.

Once you lean your body into the turn and find a perfect balance between gravity and centifugal forses you are locked into a sertain turnshape that cannot be lengthened by anything (except falling down). On a motorbike its the same thing except there you can eather brake or give trottle. Neather are possible while skiing. If you want to brake you have to slam your skis perpendicular to where you are headding. This move also serves as means of tightening the turnshape.

I did some carved RR perfect 8 shapes on a flat groomed slope a few years back together with a fellow instructor. We both had the exact same skis, 155cm womens WC Dynastar SL skis, and we managed to keep the exact same turnshape for a very long time. We had desided that I would be passing behind him but it was scary since we crossed the slope comming straight at each other. As the pist got suddenly steeper eather due to my misstake or his we found ourselfe headding straight at each other. Since it was my duty to carve behind him I tightened the turn but he got scared and slammed on the brakes uphill. If it had been possible for him to quickly lengthen his turn he would have done so but insted he turned uphill. If it had been possible for me to lengthen my turn I would also have done it but insted I did the only thing possible and that was scarve even tighter above him. At this point he had smartly raised his outside arm to protect his face and he did not se our crash but there was no crash and I passed him by just a few mm. Needless to say we were both a bit shocked and whent for a well deserved beer.
post #16 of 24
The two mechanisms that come readily to my mind that allow turn shape lengthening 6, and I think they have already been mentioned, is the releasing of the pressure by flexing of the outside leg producing a change in the lower body inclination, and a simple inside leg extension, producing a change in lower body inclination. Both change the equilibrium of the forces thus reducing edge angle and thus turn shape.

What I feel in my own sking and see in my students skiing is that i get locked in a turn shape when I stop moving. something I'm very capable of, but also something I am constantly working on.

Perhaps in the incident you speak of there was an element of surprise and reflex anticipation of impact that forced the body to tense up and stop moving. I don't know.

From another perspective, the same moves that release a turn allowing us to move into the next turn are the same moves done to a lesser dgree that will allow us to lengthen a turn in the middle of a turn. I'm no champion, but if I can't work both sides of this coin, something is wrong. Wouldn't you agree 6? I'm gonna have to play with this today. Later, RicB.
post #17 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by RicB
, the same moves that release a turn allowing us to move into the next turn are the same moves done to a lesser dgree that will allow us to lengthen a turn in the middle of a turn.
If you can start a turn, you can shorten it. If you can link to a turn in the other direction, you can lengthen it.
post #18 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost
If you can start a turn, you can shorten it. If you can link to a turn in the other direction, you can lengthen it.
Yeah!
post #19 of 24
Here's a little outside-the-box stuff for you.

Put a ski way up on edge (for visualization, both skis on left edges at about 70 degrees to the surface). Rotate your femurs/legs/feet to the left.

What have you done by doing this?

You have increased the pressure to the tips through rotation.

While this is technically a steering move (rotating the femurs), it does not create skidding.

One great thing about this move is that it allows you to adjust tip/tail pressure without adjusting your balance fore/aft on the skis, keeping you much more in balance.

In another thread of dchan's, we were talking about teaching skills. This move is kind of cool to work with other instructors because it's the answer to the question: How can you adjust tip/tail pressure without moving fore/aft? or How can you adjust tip/tail pressure through rotation/steering?.
post #20 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnH
....While this is technically a steering move (rotating the femurs), it does not create skidding...
Maybe Im wrong or did not understand your post but what you are doing by this move is that you are applying more edge to the ski and decresing the turn radius. This really does not have anything to do with skidding. One problem with this is that when you rotate your femur if you dont simultaniously bring your hipps (CM) into the turn you might rotate your hipps outwards and thereby get tail skidding. Note also that you cannot rotate your femurs to the right in the middle of a left turn to make the turn radius bigger.
post #21 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6
Maybe Im wrong or did not understand your post but what you are doing by this move is that you are applying more edge to the ski and decresing the turn radius. This really does not have anything to do with skidding. One problem with this is that when you rotate your femur if you dont simultaniously bring your hipps (CM) into the turn you might rotate your hipps outwards and thereby get tail skidding. Note also that you cannot rotate your femurs to the right in the middle of a left turn to make the turn radius bigger.
The kinetic chain works pretty well in this move. You can actually rotate the femurs to the right and get tip skidding, lengthening the turn, but it's not the easiest thing to do, and you have to be prepared for it.

I'm not necessarily increasing the edge angle, although that can be a by-product of the kinetic chain. Try to think of it as ankle/foot rotation, so that it doesn't increase the edge angle, just the tip pressure. However, increasing the edge angle isn't a bad thing either, since the end result is still the desired outcome.
post #22 of 24
JohnH & tdk6,

I think this thread I started a while back talks a bit about the point you're discussing: Independant Leg Steering and High Edge Angles http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=19377
post #23 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnH
Here's a little outside-the-box stuff for you.

Put a ski way up on edge (for visualization, both skis on left edges at about 70 degrees to the surface). Rotate your femurs/legs/feet to the left. What have you done by doing this? You have increased the pressure to the tips through rotation. While this is technically a steering move (rotating the femurs), it does not create skidding.

One great thing about this move is that it allows you to adjust tip/tail pressure without adjusting your balance fore/aft on the skis, keeping you much more in balance.

In another thread of dchan's, we were talking about teaching skills. This move is kind of cool to work with other instructors because it's the answer to the question: How can you adjust tip/tail pressure without moving fore/aft? or How can you adjust tip/tail pressure through rotation/steering?.
That can be a positive effect, but I hope you are not suggesting shifting movement focus from the feet up the rotation of the femurs.

So just for clarification, I'd suggest the most efficient way to accomplish that effect would be to simply increase the duration and intensity of the origional movements of rolling your feet inside your boots. The rotation of the femurs, creating the tip engagment effect you describe, will be recruited in direct proportion the the intensity and duration of the rolling movements of the feet (led by the inside foot). Most people ski with too little intensity and duration in their foot movements and far too much tension in their legs to allow this effect to realize it's full potential.

If you stop (or get lazy with) the movements of the feet you shut down input to the kinetic chain and any recruited secondary movements the body was reacting with to assist the feet will also shut down. Then the focus shifts away from the feet/skis and up higher in the body where it can only produce a less coordinated result from a lot more effort.

If I find I am trying to accomplish something with a movement somewhere up the body, away from the snow, I usually discover it is because I am not doing all that is avalaible with my feet.
post #24 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6
I have been debating this many times and I know there are "champions" that can do "anything" they want on skis but to my experiance once you make your turn, tightening the turn radius is easy, lengthening very difficult if not impossible.
I don't think I agree with this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RicB
From another perspective, the same moves that release a turn allowing us to move into the next turn are the same moves done to a lesser dgree that will allow us to lengthen a turn in the middle of a turn. I'm no champion, but if I can't work both sides of this coin, something is wrong. Wouldn't you agree 6?
I'll agree with RicB and provide an example: When skiing bumps or trees in early season, it's common to come around a bump or other obstacle and see something that you couldn't see from above that you really don't want to ski over. The easy solution? Relax a little, allow the skis to flatten a little, allow the CM to move downhill a little, allow the tips to drift downhill a little - any of these, or the blended chain of them, can lengthen the turn and allow us to avoid the rock/bush/stump/whatever that we'd rather not hit. I suspect most of us do it frequently as we react to little "surprises" off piste.

"It is better to ski off piste, than to ski piste off!"


Go play!
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