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What makes a good Mogul ski?

post #1 of 17
Thread Starter 
Mogul specific skis are supposedly narrow and soft. At the ski doctors camps that specialize in natural terrain they encourage most pupils to use skis under 170cm long and under 70mm wide. Peter Keelty and other reviewers note the Dynastar 8000 with a 79 mm waist and 21m sidecut is above average in bumps, trees and short turns while other mid fats with more narrow waists and 16m - M sidecuts are said to be difficult to manage in bumps. Some Metrons (B5) that are short and hourglass shaped are not considered good in the bumps. Even Keelty lists the 8000 as good in bumps but the 74mm wide 4800 isn't? Anybody want to try and explain it?
post #2 of 17
i guess i would begin by saying "it ain't the arrow.....it's the indian"

can you still say that?

finding the "right ski" is not going to make someone a good bumper. turn radius is meaningless. i think the most important characteristic of a bump ski is the base/side bevel. i want a slippery ski with a high base bevel and high side bevel.

the "zipper line" bumpers at the jane are on longish/straightish skis. most of the competitive bump skiers favor a fairly soft, fairly straight, fairly short ski with a binding mounted sans plate. a lower stand height serves to lessen any leverage and again to disengage edging via tipping the ski.

i also would throw away concerns about width under foot. anyone who says they want a ski that is fast "edge to edge" is skiing in a manner that i would suggest they should try to avoid. i'm doing all i can to stay off the ski edge. in my mind, edges move me laterally and i'm doing what i can to move down the hill......not across it.

i have taught bump lessons for the last two seasons on a nordica hot rod that is 78 mm underfoot. i've used both the top fuel (lots of titanal) and the nitrous (less metal). both work fine as long as i back off the base and side bevels a degree.

i know great bump skiers that use a wide variety of skis ranging from short slalom skis and metrons to mid-fats to wide twin tips.

my $00.02
post #3 of 17
225cm DH skis are the only way to go.

-gp
post #4 of 17
You really need to try a ski to see if you like it in bumps.
post #5 of 17

Bump skis

I found that the rossi b1s were the best of the shaped skis in the bumps. Let them get a bit dull. They are soft, and can handle tight rips--and still be seomwhat fun on the groomers after you get done burning up your legs.
post #6 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Guy
i guess i would begin by saying "it ain't the arrow.....it's the indian"

can you still say that?
I believe the modern and skiing-specific variation is:

"It's not the tune...you suck!"


post #7 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by steveturner
Anybody want to try and explain it?
The moguls out west are made of soft snow, not hard ice polished on three sides.
post #8 of 17
Thread Starter 
Yes, it's more the skier than the ski. No I'm not interested in ski characteristics for zipper line bump skiing. The bumps I'm talking about are like the bumps on Bell Mountain in Aspen NOT the buried elephants on Look Ma at Vail. I find skiing smooth runs at reasonable speeds relatively easy on almost any ski. The challenge is with the more natural conditions and what I'm trying to understand is the design characteristics that make this type of terrain more fun at what many of you probably consider to be moderate speeds.

I know someone is going to mention testing/demo. You guys who live close to the mountain can probably schedule to be there when there are demos. Those of us who only ski holidays and weekends pay $20 - $30 a day to some ski shop and waste skiing time going back down the hill changing skis to try to get a feel for the different models. I've tried it and found it more frustrating than enlightening. I've never seen a ski demo like setup like is frequently described in EPIC posts so I've got to rely heavily on input from other people.
post #9 of 17
Putting aside the "a good skier can ski any ski in the bumps" argument and ignoring zipper line competitive style bump skiing there is a class of ski that will allow the average experienced skier to negotiate bumps more comfortably. Most people ski bumps with a more rounded turn style and attempt to slither smoothly through the turns rather than do quick rebounds off the sides of bumps in the zipper line like the competitive bumpers do. If this is the style of bump skiing you do then I have the following suggestions. First avoid race skis, cross type skis (atomic sx11 for instance), short radius carvers, extremely wide powder skis,and competive type bump skis. That leaves the general class of all mountian recreational skis. In this class avoid the stiffer ones. Skis like the K2 Apache Recon, Dynastar 8000, Nordica Hotrod Nitrous, etc make great bump skis and perform well in trees and groomers. If you don't ski every week then try something a little more forgiving like the K2 Apache X or Dynastar 4800, etc. Some people also like park skis like the Salomon 1080 or Dynastar Troublemakers for the bumps but they may not be as versatile out of the bumps. I personally ski the Dynastar 8000 as my primary bump ski at Mary Jane. I can even hold a zipper line with them when my knees are feeling good. In general for bumps I like a lighter ski that will skid easily but will set an edge quickly when needed and is not to stiff.
post #10 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Guy
finding the "right ski" is not going to make someone a good bumper. turn radius is meaningless. i think the most important characteristic of a bump ski is the base/side bevel. i want a slippery ski with a high base bevel and high side bevel.
Care to define "high" base bevel?

Is a standard 1 degree base that hard to ski in moguls?

is 1.5 degree better?
Or 2 degree?
How high can you go before you diminish freeriding?
post #11 of 17
What makes a good mogul ski?

A good mogul skier.

I've seen good mogul skiers rip it up on any kind of ski.

Give Jeremy Bloom or Travis Mayer a pair of fatties and they'd rip it.

Don't buy ski to make you a better mogul skier. Buy some lessons instead.
post #12 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Guy
i guess i would begin by saying "it ain't the arrow.....it's the indian"

can you still say that?
I believe it's "the native american."
post #13 of 17
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the advice and insight RCA and RG.

The first year the K2-XP was introduced I rented various skis for two or three days. Both stores directed me toward SL skis plus the original Bandit. The demo XP's were considered too wide and were not available until the afternoon of the my last day. (I should have known that if people would not bring them back they must be good!) The XPs were my favorite ski of the group but I followed the store's advice and bought the K2 Axis X which were almost identical dimensions to the old Power Karves they replaced. Remember, the XP looked a lot fatter then than those dimensions do today. Now fast forward three years and I'm in the market again.

Lars, I agree with everything you say but what Jeremy and Travis can do have absolutely nothing to do with with what I will ever be able to do. As to your last suggestion. I took the three day "Camp with the Champs" program in Aspen and I will do so again. I thought it was excellent. I learned a lot, but it contributed to my confusion.

After two days of lessons the instructors were still moving most of us toward skis under 170cm length and under 70 mm waist. That was contrary to what I personally experienced 3 years earlier but was consistent with the advice I got from the ski shops I was dealing with back then.

I'm back in the market for new skis so I thought I'd get some advice from EPIC. Your opinions seem to reinforce my own feelings. Maybe this spring I'll get those mid-fats I enjoyed three years ago. Thanks again.
post #14 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Guy
i guess i would begin by saying "it ain't the arrow.....it's the indian"

can you still say that?
Yes you can. I was thinking the same thing. Attitude and alot of energy also helps. You gotta think Warp nine Engage!! and point em down hill.
post #15 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcahill
In general for bumps I like a lighter ski that will skid easily but will set an edge quickly when needed and is not to stiff.

I agree with that. I am not a great mogul skier, but I do find those criteria work for me. A soft tip, forgiving ski is what I like in the moguls and I have found the Legend 4800 to work best for me. ( Granted there are many skis I haven't tried yet.)
post #16 of 17
Skiers who want to get into the bumps need all the help they can get. If a specific ski makes them feel better and more confident in the bumps then so be it.

You need to start somewhere.

I bought 1080s as my learning to ski bumps and soft snow ski. I ended up finding it's speed limit pretty quickly but it kind of helped me learn to absorb and skid in bumps. My Slalom skis helped me learn to tip my skis on edge and make short turns.

I think learning to ski in variable snow and make short turns is more important then finding a good mogul ski.

I demoed AC3s this past Saturday and was hitting bumps like I never have before. Some people would say this ski is heavy and on the damp stiff side. I thought it was the perfect ski for me in the bumps.
post #17 of 17
I like rcahill's advice. I feel the first-gen mid-fats are the best all around skis for the bumps. I prefer those that are less stiff/no metal, narrow in the waist-70mm, and less wide in the tails. You already have a great all around mogul ski in the Axis X. Its replacement, the Apache X, is a little wider in the tips and tails and narrower in the waist so it should be a little quicker edge to edge. Not sure if it will slide through the bumps any better than the Axis X though. If you don't want to go that route, try out the Recons or the 8000s but I do not believe they will be as soft or quick as the Apache X.
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