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Apex to Apex - Page 2

post #31 of 54
Wigs: The article NEVER used the work neutral.
post #32 of 54
Thread Starter 
I didn't say that the skis were flat. I said that I don't feel a lot of pressure when everything is going downhill, it's on turning away from the downhill direction that I feel pressure increase against my outside ski. It's neutral pressure, not neutral edging at the apex. The author says, "In this turn, think of pressure equalizing at each apex."

Why don't you just try it, instead of trying to talk yourself out of it?
post #33 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnH
Okay.... I'm hearing Bode K saying the forces are the greatest at the apex and Nolo saying she feels weightless at the apex before the forces kick in.:
BK says the TURNING forces are greatest, then the TOTAL forces increase.

I will suggest that nolo feels weightless because the path of her CM and her skis are parallel -- there is no deflection going on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnH
When I'm at the apex, I have a moderate amount of pressure built up, and I'm probably pressuring the outside ski more than the inside, since I don't want to wait for the bottom third of the turn to get more pressure to the outside ski.
Those would be the turning forces pressuring the outside ski more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnH
But getting back to an old thread, my weight distribution is probably 50/50 (maybe that's what Nick is trying to say in the article?), but the force of the turn is pressuring the outside ski more.

I'm so confused.
That's a good question. I read equal weight as equal pressure.
post #34 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo
I didn't say that the skis were flat. I said that I don't feel a lot of pressure when everything is going downhill, it's on turning away from the downhill direction that I feel pressure increase against my outside ski. It's neutral pressure, not neutral edging at the apex. The author says, "In this turn, think of pressure equalizing at each apex."

Why don't you just try it, instead of trying to talk yourself out of it?
Actually, you said you feel weightless when everything was going downhill. I know that feeling, but "weightless" never involves turning forces.
I can do equal pressure, or even 100% on the inside ski, at the apex; but the "natural and progressive " weight distribution generally puts most of the pressure on the outside ski. Any other distribution may be a good excercise, but it never feels "natural," at least not to me.
My whole point is that that article was confusing, and that this discussion seems to based on some kind of physics unknown to Newton.

BK
post #35 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE
BK says the TURNING forces are greatest, then the TOTAL forces increase.

I will suggest that nolo feels weightless because the path of her CM and her skis are parallel -- there is no deflection going on.



Those would be the turning forces pressuring the outside ski more.



That's a good question. I read equal weight as equal pressure.
If there is no deflection going on, how are the skis turning?
post #36 of 54
This is way more fun than working. BK
post #37 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE
BK says the TURNING forces are greatest, then the TOTAL forces increase.
In another thread, there was a consensus that turning forces might be 2g's or more. On the not-so-steep terrain where your "pure carved turns" are working well, the gravity component in the direction of the turn might be half a g or less. On steep terrain, you can't get any pressure at the top of the turn, and you need to steer your skis into the fall line.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE
That's a good question. I read equal weight as equal pressure.
Pressure is the reaction force to weight, and is always equal to weight. Your weight cannot be distributed differently than the pressure. Weight increases and decreases with turning forces. If the turning forces are 2g's, a 150 lb person will weigh over 330 lbs, (the vector sum of gravity and turning forces). When the turning force are released, the stored energy of the ski can launch you off the snow, which is where the feeling of "weightlessness" at the transition comes from.

BK
post #38 of 54
The part of the turn pre-fall line has deflected the path of the CM downhill. The ski has yet to come-around and continue deflection the other way. As it comes around, there is a brief moment at the apex where the CM and the skis are both moving downhill in concert. This is the moment at which the skier will feel weightless -- as if they are falling.

You can generate this sort of feeling by "toppling" into the turn. You'll need to reach with your legs for the skis to maintain contact in the upper part of the turn. This applies some pressure in the top half and keeps the skis turning.

The skis can continue to turn past fall-line for two reasons: They are either being steered by the skier, or in the absence of rotary, since they are on edge, they'll trace an arc past fall-line and back towards the skier. The forces will begin to build immediately.

Certainly, you can ski such that there are huge forces at the apex. You can also ski such that there are very little forces at the apex. The choice is up to you.
post #39 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE
The part of the turn pre-fall line has deflected the path of the CM downhill. The ski has yet to come-around and continue deflection the other way. As it comes around, there is a brief moment at the apex where the CM and the skis are both moving downhill in concert. This is the moment at which the skier will feel weightless -- as if they are falling.

You can generate this sort of feeling by "toppling" into the turn. You'll need to reach with your legs for the skis to maintain contact in the upper part of the turn. This applies some pressure in the top half and keeps the skis turning.

The skis can continue to turn past fall-line for two reasons: They are either being steered by the skier, or in the absence of rotary, since they are on edge, they'll trace an arc past fall-line and back towards the skier. The forces will begin to build immediately.

Certainly, you can ski such that there are huge forces at the apex. You can also ski such that there are very little forces at the apex. The choice is up to you.
Just another skier who slept through high school physics.
post #40 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bode Klammer
This is just getting worse. The apex is the point of greatest turning force. In symetrical turns, that generally occurs as the skis are pointed down the fall line. The total forces may continue to increase in the bottom of the turn because gravity adds to the turning force, but if there are no turning forces present in the fall line, how does the turn continue? And if you feel "weightless" how do you feel a "connection to the to the snow?"
My experience has been that the "weightless" feeling occurs after I release the pressure of the turn and pass through the transition to the new turn.
BK
You extend your legs to the apex to maintain pressure on the snow. Past the apex the skis begin to push at you as they again begin to deflect your momentum. In between these two actions which happens somewhere around the apex something occurs if for only the briefest instant. Your efforts stop and transition, a feeling of weightlessness, a feeling of no or changing effort or a more relaxed sensation. Just as when changing direction for some brief instant momentum stops on the plane of movement the change occurs.

My post first suggested that there is a 'strong case for this to be neutral' referring to this type of turn. I guess the only real way to confirm your view is correct is to be willing to consider any other strong case that may challenge that view.


edit As for maximum turning forces at the apex that may be true overall but as the skis and CM are going in the same direction at this point then the force of gravity is helping with the over all force making our job easier. Do you feel as much effort exerted at the apex as you do just before edge transition?
post #41 of 54
"As your skis travel into the next apex, weight will progressively and naturally build on the next outside ski, returning to equal distribution between legs at the apex. This movement is very similar to a late weight transfer turn"


I had a lot of trouble with this paragraph too and it could definitely have been written better. I guess by the time I got there I already knew what he was talking about or where he was going but also had to read that several times to make some sense. I can only assume he's speaking of from a point just before edge transition and how things will progress from there.

It is kind of the crux of the article so not a good point to become confusing.
post #42 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bode Klammer
Just another skier who slept through high school physics.
Then I won't bother telling you about my degree.

You are thinking that we're talking about identical turns.

I assure you we are not.
post #43 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by L7
You extend your legs to the apex to maintain pressure on the snow. Past the apex the skis begin to push at you as they again begin to deflect your momentum. In between these two actions which happens somewhere around the apex something occurs if for only the briefest instant. Your efforts stop and transition, a feeling of weightlessness, a feeling of no or changing effort or a more relaxed sensation. Just as when changing direction for some brief instant momentum stops on the plane of movement the change occurs.
A totally agree.
post #44 of 54
Thread Starter 
Forget the word "weightless" -- what I feel is "suspended" like a fly on a wall.

The point of this article is to work with forces, not against them. At the apex I am long and strong, so that I can work with forces that I'm going to generate coming away from the fall line to help execute a smooth transition.

See these quotes from the Transition thread (JASP):
Quote:
Wow, I really think it is time to define the "transition". Is it the point where we are symmetrically aligned on the skis and the skis are flat upon the snow and all four edges are on the snow? No! Traditionally it is thought to be the move from one set of edges to the others. However long that takes. It includes being on one set and the other set.
The change that is occuring in the Skiing Concepts "White Paper" is towards more of the fall line to fall line approach because it implies a much longer transition "zone".

(New quote) As part of our ongoing training, Kurt and Andy have Friday clinics throughout the season. With over 30 past or present team members we also have access to that level of training on a daily basis. Which is why I mentioned the "White Paper" a few post ago. Transitions are being redefined as at least two thirds of the turn. The control phase being the other third. How we set up in the control phase dictates what we can do in the other two thirds of the turn (the transition phase if you will). Every movement has a consequence we must deal with later in that turn. Eventually this leads to the idea that it is all transitioning and there is no need for a "segmented phases of one turn mentality".
The key sentence for me is: "how we set up in the control phase dictates what we can do in the other two thirds of the turn (the transition, if you will)." The idea of arcing into the apex as well as arcing away from it is in the 2005 Skiing Concepts paper almost as an aside, but this seems to me to be the big missing piece that holds advanced skiers back.
post #45 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo
The idea of arcing into the apex as well as arcing away from it ....seems to me to be the big missing piece that holds advanced skiers back.
As a learning skier, I think this simply bears repeating. Good insight and observation nolo.
post #46 of 54
I agree nolo, that is a very important bit to note. Most skiers, especially those learning to carve, do not actually arc the skis into the top of the turn, rather they skid them until the edge is almost fully engaged, and then begin carving. By the time this takes place you are just about to the apex.

Would it be more helpful to have a set of turns to look at to do an apex to apex MA on? If so, I would be willing to cut down some of my files that I posted in my thread for you guys/girls to analyze (then you are all at least discussing the same turn - plus I was sort of there so I know what was going on as well).

Later

GREG
post #47 of 54
Hey BK,

Check page 33 of skiers edge, figure 4.2.

Cheers!
post #48 of 54
Interesting caption under that picture about transition: "Once started, the transition cannot be stopped until the skis engage the snow in the new turn." Reiterated on the next page: "For an expert skier, the transition is a continuous succession of movements that, one begun, cannot be stopped."

I'm not sure I can swallow the "cannot be stopped" part, considering where the transition is being shown it starts.

What are your thoughts?
post #49 of 54
Thread Starter 
I see we never got to your question, Chris. I need to find my copy of the book.

I wanted to report back after a season of playing with this, especially the confusing part
Quote:
"As your skis travel into the next apex, weight will progressively and naturally build on the next outside ski, returning to equal distribution between legs at the apex. This movement is very similar to a late weight transfer turn"
The only thing I'd do is change the "weight" in the first sentence to "pressure." The crux is the gradual transfer of pressure dominance, which also distinguishes it from a late weight transfer or weighted release, in which the weight transfer is instantaneous and not gradual like this. It makes for a very sticky turn. Like L7 wrote back in January, I'm getting it down pretty good on the intermediate slopes but I have not been able to transfer it to expert slopes yet, though I've seen Nick rip these exact turns down steep terrain in choppy snow. Inspirational.
post #50 of 54
Nolo,
I was glad to see your follow up post about this stuff.
My experience with this has led me to a drill used by USSA coaches. It is called the Wagner drill. From what I understand it is a way to bridge the gap from round and progressive, to straighter at the gate and more actively bending and tipping the skis during the middle third of the turn.
My challenge is to perform this drill and maintain some progressiveness instead of doing it all in that middle third. Any thoughts?
post #51 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by desafinado
I think this is what Harald Harb calls "weighted release" aka von Gruenigen turn. You are supposed to stand on your previous outside ski well into the start of the new turn and gradually transfer balance to the new outside ski. If I understand it correctly this is supposed to keep your body closer to the center of the turn as well as prevent your new outside ski edge from too early engagement that could cause unnecessary skidding.
I like what Nolo has talked about. She said 'flying' I use 'hanging' - spending more time in the crossover. Feels good, looks good and it is good skiing.

The quote above is from early in the thread. I have no idea who Harb is but using the previous outside ski in order to gradually engage the outside ski is great skiing. Racers use it all the time. It works great in the bumps and powder. It allows more turn.
post #52 of 54
Thread Starter 
The Wagner Drill: http://www.v1sports.com/academy/ussa/default.asp

Tell us more, JASP?
post #53 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro
Nolo,
My challenge is to perform this drill and maintain some progressiveness instead of doing it all in that middle third. Any thoughts?
Jasp, your right, this drill is designed help racers to go from round arc to arc turns, to instead skiing a straighter line and introducing a pivot entry into their turns.

These are not linked turns, they're quick turns connected by a long traverse. Long transition phase, followed by a big pivot into the falline, then powerfull engagement. First engagement happens after the skis have almost reached the falline, very little pre falline pressure/edge angle build. Trying to pressure above the falline would require a pressured steer, which would have a mega slow down effect and defeat the very purpose of the drill/tactic. Trying to carve above the falline would not allow the turn to occur fast enough,,, the line could not be held.
post #54 of 54
The confusion comes from some of the comments on the V1 site concerning the strong edging just before the tight turn begins. In paticular the one comment "notice the skis are engaged without a strong redirecting move" suggests the traverse almost to the rise line is followed by engagement and a closing radius turn entry. Which would be different from a pivot skid to a strong edge movement.
As a race tactic it has been around for a little while but I expect that in the near future some of my non-racing customers will want to learn this maneuver as well. In my experiments with this I have found a way to maintain enough edge to still move across the hill, establish the new edge, then add the strong tipping of the skis, (which produces a very dramatic direction change), then get off the high edges very quickly.
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