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Expert boot and alignment advice given - Page 3  

post #61 of 275
Jeff,
The boot I have is black and silver, it's possible it was made in another color also, not sure though. It was supposed to be a slightly softer version of the top of the line race boot. Not sure if that changes your assesment or not. I had the Lange race boot previously, and it definitely was a looser fit. I'll try the ones you recommended and some others and see what I can find.
Thanks,
Dave

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dave,

"I am guessing that these Nordica's are the green and lime green model. Assuming I am correct, I recommend you get a better boot when you can afford to do so. This is a poor quality boot in my opinion. Its flex pattern is bad and very restrictive, and the heel pocket is very wide, although it starts with a lot of padding. A new liner is not going to fix the boots shortcomings.

Without seeing your foot I cannot make an accurate guess on which boot you should try. As a guess a Lange 100, 120 or Banshee might be good. An Atomic or a Head WC 97 might be good, too. I recommend you try as many high level boots as possible. If you narrow your choice down to a few models, I can then give you my feedback on the models."

Jeff
post #62 of 275
Jeff,
A Quick question: What liners do you use in your Flexons?
post #63 of 275
Hi Jeff,

Thanks for your time and knowledge.

I have a question about the correlation between boot fit and being knock kneed.

My problem is that when I flex forward and get into a tuck/squat position my knees dive inward and crash together.

I have wide feet and wear XWave 8's. I like the boots especially after the were widened by the DC Ski Center (great shop).

My questions are:

1) how do I fix the knock kneed problem? It seems to limit my ability to ski smoothly and I find that my body is working against itself instead of in harmony.

2) Is this a boot/canting issue or an alignment issue? Are they they same thing?

I do have custom inserts but they are the multicolored blue/green ones that were formed when they were weighted. I bought them because another shop told me I had a stiff arch and that the Superfeet Cork inserts that I bought would hurt my feet.

3) Is that true? I thought that the Superfeet Cork inserts were among the best out there?

4) What are your thoughts on them for people with stiff arches (when I say I have a stiff arch I mean that when I try to bend my big toes backwards my arch does not flex much. I also have a high arch.) and flexablile arches?

Thanks so much for your input and sorry for the longish post.

Cheers,

Sean
post #64 of 275
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Westcat:
Jeff,
The boot I have is black and silver, it's possible it was made in another color also, not sure though. It was supposed to be a slightly softer version of the top of the line race boot. Not sure if that changes your assesment or not. I had the Lange race boot previously, and it definitely was a looser fit. I'll try the ones you recommended and some others and see what I can find.
Thanks,
Dave

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dave,

The black and silver boot is no better than the green/lime green model.

Jeff
post #65 of 275
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Lostboy:
Jeff,
A Quick question: What liners do you use in your Flexons?
Lostboy,

I use the standard style liner, not the thermoflex liner. I do not care for the feel of the thermoflex model, especially in a race course. There are quite a few excellent freeskiers who love the thermoflex. They definitely are warm.

Jeff
post #66 of 275
Jeff, it's unusual to read someone both as knowledgable and as objective as yourself. Much of what you say rings true - at least the things that i'm familiar with - and after cruising thru this topic I'm truely happy that I have a perfect Lange foot and don't face the headaches most of your customers face.

With that said, I'd like to mention a recent "better sking through science" phenom :

Funny article in SKIING about 'cutting-edge' technology to help improve technique. After being wired-in to hundreds of sophisticated foot sensors, the technician's conclusion was... "You should take a lesson". HA HA! 3 hours with 50 grand worth of NASA-grade electronics to convince someone to take lessons.

Oh well, I guess if you just don't know what else to do with the money...
post #67 of 275
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by SeanyMac:
Hi Jeff,

Thanks for your time and knowledge.

I have a question about the correlation between boot fit and being knock kneed.

My problem is that when I flex forward and get into a tuck/squat position my knees dive inward and crash together.

I have wide feet and wear XWave 8's. I like the boots especially after the were widened by the DC Ski Center (great shop).

My questions are:

1) how do I fix the knock kneed problem? It seems to limit my ability to ski smoothly and I find that my body is working against itself instead of in harmony.

2) Is this a boot/canting issue or an alignment issue? Are they they same thing?

I do have custom inserts but they are the multicolored blue/green ones that were formed when they were weighted. I bought them because another shop told me I had a stiff arch and that the Superfeet Cork inserts that I bought would hurt my feet.

3) Is that true? I thought that the Superfeet Cork inserts were among the best out there?

4) What are your thoughts on them for people with stiff arches (when I say I have a stiff arch I mean that when I try to bend my big toes backwards my arch does not flex much. I also have a high arch.) and flexablile arches?

Thanks so much for your input and sorry for the longish post.

Cheers,

Sean
Sean,

I should have been here yesterday? I do not know what you mean. Anyway, to your questions.

1. A properly made orthotic should fix your inward knee flexion. At the very least they should alleviate most of the problem. Unfortunately, it can be darn near impossible for people like yourself to find anyone who can make an appropriate orthotic.

2. Alignment problems involve all issues of stance, from orthotics to canting to ramp angle and forward lean. Specifically, you have a leg alignment problem. Without seeing your legs and boots, I have no way of knowing if you have a canting issue. Regardless, your legs need to fixed with orthotics before any accurate canting can be done.

3. Superfeet are ok for some people but are bad for more. Superfeet come with a predetermined amount of material in their arch which is set for the "average" arch. This provides insufficient support for large arches and excessive support for smaller arches. Superfeet can be painful for people with flat arches. They are also basically a stiff gel and will change shape with time. Superfeet are also molded unweighted and do not allow as much control as a weighted product. This is bad for a skilled technician but good for a less skilled one. (Just as a note, the vast majority of shops do not do any work that requires more control than a Superfeet.) Superfeet are also colder than most other footbeds and retain some moisture.

I believe your footbeds are DFP's. They have some limitations but are probably more comfortable than Superfeet for you.

4. Most people do have relatively stiff arches that do not flex much. This should not affect your skiing much since ski boots do not flex much under the arch. (even Atomics) If you do have a flexibility issue, it is more likely at the ankle. This can be a significant problem in skiing, since it limits your ability to balance and control pressure. Sometimes the problem is with the calf flexibility. If this is the case, work on your flexibility. Other times it comes from the ankle and foot shape. This problem is generally known a psuedo equinus foot profile. In this case, the calf is flexible enough, but the ankle stops forward motion. People with this profile tend to have very high arches. The problem is that ankle is only relaxed when the forefoot is dropped. When the forefoot is raised to flat, the ankle has gone though most of its range of motion. This problem can be very painful, especially if you ski in boots that do not stop flexing where your ankle stops.

Jeff
post #68 of 275
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Cheap seats:
Jeff, it's unusual to read someone both as knowledgable and as objective as yourself. Much of what you say rings true - at least the things that i'm familiar with - and after cruising thru this topic I'm truely happy that I have a perfect Lange foot and don't face the headaches most of your customers face.

With that said, I'd like to mention a recent "better sking through science" phenom :

Funny article in SKIING about 'cutting-edge' technology to help improve technique. After being wired-in to hundreds of sophisticated foot sensors, the technician's conclusion was... "You should take a lesson". HA HA! 3 hours with 50 grand worth of NASA-grade electronics to convince someone to take lessons.

Oh well, I guess if you just don't know what else to do with the money...
Cheap seats,

Glad you are enjoying the discussion. That article was interesting, and yet the conclusion seemed to fall short. Your point is right in that expensive technology is worth nothing without technicians that truly understand the underlying issues. While I have not seen that program, I did notice at least one thing they missed. Susan's stance is too upright; she needs more forward lean. She may also need more flex. This is limiting her range of motion and causing her to ski stiffly. An extra 4mm of lift and a little flex would probably be all she would need to ski far more relaxed.

That article reminded me of a shop around here (Summit Co, Colorado) that has a $10,000 pressure sensor that they use for aligning skiers. I have to admit that it really looks cool. With it they try to set completely even pressure. This sounds great until you get someone who carries their weight on the outsides of their feet (or insides) and there are a lot of people built this way. The only way to even the pressure fully is to position the knees far to the inside. Guess what the skier gets? Pressure that looks great on the computer and a knock kneed stance that skis like garbage. The worst part is that the skiers usually feel bad immediately but feel they should trust the computer. The shop tells them to take a few days to get used to it and it will feel better. I even went through this myself many years ago with a guy who was supposed to be a guru. I only had to go 100 yards to know how bad it was, but I am sure there are more trusting skiers out there who ski that way for years. No wonder the sport is not growing.

Thanks for the email
Jeff
post #69 of 275
THanks for the info. I heard that there's an Atomic men's boot with a lower cuff, and they are more wide at the front and narrow at teh back, which is why I was hoping to try them. Yeah, I have a huge calf muscle and it dropped a few years back after my shin spints operation.
Will investigate the foam tubes...something is irritating the achilles, and there is nerve pain. It's OK when I'm teaaching in the US, as there's more chair lift action, and the colder temperatures seem to result in less (or no!) pain. But here, if I'm on surface lifts for any length of time, especially in warmer temperatures, I actually have to stop.
And you are right, obsessing about this would be counter-productive. I managed to scrape through my level 2 exam in these boots, and have found that if i'm not thinking about them, I ski reasonably.
If I'm ever in Summit County again (and I do hope to be!) I know which shop I'll be headed to.
post #70 of 275
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by ant:
THanks for the info. I heard that there's an Atomic men's boot with a lower cuff, and they are more wide at the front and narrow at teh back, which is why I was hoping to try them. Yeah, I have a huge calf muscle and it dropped a few years back after my shin spints operation.
Will investigate the foam tubes...something is irritating the achilles, and there is nerve pain. It's OK when I'm teaaching in the US, as there's more chair lift action, and the colder temperatures seem to result in less (or no!) pain. But here, if I'm on surface lifts for any length of time, especially in warmer temperatures, I actually have to stop.
And you are right, obsessing about this would be counter-productive. I managed to scrape through my level 2 exam in these boots, and have found that if i'm not thinking about them, I ski reasonably.
If I'm ever in Summit County again (and I do hope to be!) I know which shop I'll be headed to.
ant,

Even with a lower cuff (which is probably a good thing for you) I suspect the Atomic will still be excessively far forward for you. Be careful. Make sure you check on those tubes soon. Take care.

Jeff
post #71 of 275
Hi Jeff,
I'll be heading down for my annual alignment tune-up in a week
or so. I love what Atomic's 9.50Race boot does for my skiing. It's SligHtly lower cuff buckles are great for my shorter leg makeup (I'm 5'8")..how cheaply they are made or not.

(HOWEVER There is one "BUT"! = 1 long Question..
______________
With my wide forefoot, narrow heel & high instep...much of
the outer portions of my feet away from the joints...are
rather fleshy.....and I wish the Atomic liners were beefier!
...cause I seem to feel some day to day inconsistent hotspots here & there.
The shell's sizing is terrific...but I'm wondering which way
I should go with the liner issue.
a) filling in with foam(on inner face of the shell)
>>> OR <<<
b) finding a beefier liner THAT'LL FIT in ATOMICS WELL...!?

The Atomic Liners just feel so soft...I think my bootfitter
might give me the $$$_saving option to fill in with foam a
bit, but maybe just taking it out and finding/throwing in
a better liner might be better overall...esp. after packing
out.
Any opinion welcomed....

thanks,
Steve

[ October 26, 2002, 10:38 PM: Message edited by: HaveSkisWillClimb ]
post #72 of 275
Jeff,

Did you ever see the Endless Summer? It is a classic surf film made by Bruce Brown in the seventies. Anyway, there is a scene in the movie when the two main characters who are traveling the world, following summer, are in Australia. Well, one of the kids they run into gives them the quintessential excuse for why there were no waves, "you guys really missed it. Should've been here yesterday."

I find this to be true when seeking powder. Everyone always tells you that it was great yesterday even when it hasn't snowed for a week.

Oh well. Thanks for the info. I'm going to get an alignment done on Tuesday I'll let y'all know how it goes.

Cheers,

Sean
post #73 of 275
Great thread Jeff,

I have Strolz Boots and went for them to fill in all the imperfections with my feet which are -

a) High arch - I had difficulty getting my feet into a boot that fit before trying Strolz.
b) Thin ankles - the padding of standard off the shelf boots never seemed to give my ankle a snug fit.
c) One foot longer than the other - e.g. with my walking boots one is always tighter fitting than the other and sometimes I wear 2 socks on my smaller foot and 1 sock on the other.

165 Ibs, 5'8" size 7-8 (UK) feet.

My questions are

1. When you say the Strolz "do not ski well" what exactly do you mean?

2. In view of my above problems what boot(s) would you suggest.

3. You don't seem too keen on mould-able linners are there any you do recommend?

4. Is there a simple way to test if a boot is too stiff or not?

DB

[ October 27, 2002, 01:40 PM: Message edited by: DangerousBrian ]
post #74 of 275
Jeff,
Thanks for the great thread.
I wonder if you could discuss foam liners.

To Foam or not to Foam? That is the Question.

This comes up a lot in the boot fitting questions here. My one experience with foam didn't work. It was a good shop in Taos but (of course didn't find this out till I got home) I had wrinkles in the ankle and too much foam behind the heel. It wasn't that snug after a short while either.

I threw those out liners out. (Actually they hung out in the basement in the "Museum of Things That Didn't Work" -ski boot department. There was a pretty big display there of old boots that were "great" but gave black toes every year on the first mogul run and after much suffering were discovered to be not too small but too big!. Insoles made by those guys who "really know what they're doing". The very first one I got that had tin foil on the bottom and was about as supportive as a wet paper towel, or another one I got two years ago saying I wanted "really good arch support". Well I skied one day with my new "solution to the problem" and my knees hurt for a week. Occasionally the show was interactive- my last too large shell size boot w/original liner in good shape(because it was replace by the lousy foam one. was picked up by my brother in law. "Hallelujah" he said about getting that boot though I have a sneaking suspicion now it should be back in the museum.
Eventually though, the "curator" decided it was time for a new exhibit- "The Clean Room" so these priceless artifacts are now gone. I'm not fond of that new exhibit.)

Well, back to the subject. It looks like this year I'll have another boot for the museum or should I foam? I've got a narrow foot, low instep, low volume. My right foot is a little over 10, my left about 10 3/4. My current boot is a Lange L-10 World Cup ("plug" boot) in a shell size 27 (size 9). Stretched, ground out at the heel and punched out for the little toes. Well, after about 2 weeks I kept wanting more filling. Guy at shop had a pair of Doberman liners he sold me for 50$. Much, much better. (Stock lange w/c liner couldn't have been made cheaper-even in China. Well, they do have lots of rice paper there...)
But now even these liners are shot. I've had the cuff wrapped with foam rubber, pads in lots of areas esp. the mid foot, and they're still not good on choppy, unpredictable snow, or difficult terrain. It feels like I don't have control. I can ski easy groomers with only one buckle tightened so they're not "huge" but they just don't cut it.
Should I go down another shell size and have a toechtomy and other stretching performed? or foam these current 27 shells? These shells have been planed for canting and have 5mm lifters, so there's a lot of work that's gone into them.
I did try on a few boots in a 26 - Tech. Icon xt, Dobermann xs, Lange world cup. Icon felt the best probably, though pivot point seemed a little high and forward and it had too much forward lean. Doberman xs seemed too low in the front cuff but probably had best foot hold.-Maybe the regular Dobermann? Lange w/c not as good in foot as others. Haven't tried Head n97 yet, tried the M103 in 27 shell - good cuff, heel but way too big in foot.

It's looking like they'll be a big new exhibit with my current boot. A shell, two liners, all sorts of padding and shims, a pair of insoles melted by a dryer on the wrong voltage in Europe.

Seems like ski boots always become a comedy of the absurd.

[ October 28, 2002, 08:47 AM: Message edited by: Tog ]
post #75 of 275
Hi Jeff just a quick one, if I soften my X Wave 9s by cuting out the V as marked by Salomon just how soft will they be in terms of flex index and is it a good idea(no decent boot fitters around here so will be doing it myself).
Thanks
Paul
post #76 of 275
Hello Jeff and thanks for yout input.

I bought a pair of Atomic 9.50 two years ago and they fitted perfectly in the store and in the warmth of my home. In less than an hour on the slopes they cramped my forefoot so I could hardly ski back to the village. All efforts to fix them were in vain. I was told that the shell could not be blown out because it was to thin!

I was in a small village in Swizerland and had no access to a bootfitter (I have never actually met one). I had just given my worn out Technica TNT a rest and was just starting a week long Ski Safari in the Alps. I bought a pair of X-wave 10 on the spot, same size as the Atomics, 28.5, and was off on the Safari with no store or help in sight for 6 days. The Salomons were great and I finished the week happy with my boots.

I really liked the flex and the lightness of the Atomics untill they started to hurt. The shell seems to be wide enough but the liner is thick in front and perhaps makes the boot to narrow for me.

I have lent the boots to some of my friend but they all have the same complaint.

In boot tests in the American Skiing Mags they always rate the Atomics as wide in the fore foot!!

Do you know of any modifications that could work? There are no boot fitters in Iceland were I live and no seperate liners available for fitting.

Atli

[ October 30, 2002, 02:36 PM: Message edited by: Yeti ]
post #77 of 275
Quote:
Originally posted by Jeff Bergeron, Boot Fixation:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Jeff Bergeron, Boot Fixation:
Quote:
Originally posted by Ty Webb:
Jeff,

O.K.,
First question, what do you think of the new Tecnica Hot Form liners?? And Tecnica over-all, what do you think of their line of boots....Icon and Rival series in particular?

Do you have one boot manufacturer that you think is getting ahead of the others in design, fit, style, and technology?

Ty [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

PS Welcome to EPIC SKI
[/

Ty,
Historically, these types of systems are failures because they tend to be less durable than standard liners. I expect these liners will have approximately half the life of a normal liner. However, these liners have not been tested and may be more durable than I expect. I just would not want to pay for them and find out I was right. We will see in a few months and I will try to give an update at this time.

As far as the Tecnica line goes, I like these boots for most skiers. The Icon has a good medium volume fit and a great flex pattern that is close to the best on the market. Its only problems are that it is a little too wide in the heel and ankle area, that lighter weight skiers (under 130 lbs.) have a difficult time flexing the boot, and it can be difficult to put on. (I know they have a new hinge system to make it easier to put on but it is poorly designed. The hinge is on the upper cuff and the problem is with the lower shell.) One other problem is that they use an ABS type of plastic that tends to crack when the boot is punched out for fitting.

The Rival series is another great series of boots. These are the widest boots that I have ever seen, so they give people with very wide feet a great option. They are a little on the soft side, but I prefer softer boots for most skiers anyway. The only problem is that they are only appropriate for skiers with wide feet.

As far as does anyone have a significant advantage in the ski boot market, I would have to say no. The ski boot companies try to convince the ski world that they are continually coming up with new advances but this is not the case. While the liners have been improved somewhat in the last 20 years, the shells have had few improvements. This may seem hard to believe, but consider this. The World Cup skiers by and large are using boots that are nearly identical to boots used by skiers in the seventies. Even companies that did not have WC boots in the seventies have only copied what existed in the seventies. Moreover, plastics were better in the seventies because environmental laws in Europe forced them to make safer, but less effective plastics.

The only new technology on the horizon is the carbon fiber boots that are only in the experimental stage right now. I would not expect much with these boots for a long time because the the companies are trying to use plastic design for carbon fiber. This is not going to work.

Right now, what we have are a few good boots, some decent ones, and some bad ones.

Here are the boots I consider good.
Narrow feet- Nordica Doberman S and XS, Tecnica Icon XT (very different from the rest of the Icon series), Rossignol Plug boot (the boot that racers get, not a production boot and has no warranty), Head World Cup 97 (I prefer the softer version) and Lady WC 97
Medium to wider feet- Head World Cup 103, Tecnica Icon series (if you weigh over 130lbs), Lange 130,120, 100 and Banshee series, Salomon Course Series and X-Wave(wider), Raichle Flexon Series without the Thermoflex liner (if you can find them), Nordica Beast.
Wide to very wide- Tecnica Rival, Salomon XWave, Nordica Beast.

Here are some boots that I consider to be ok, but have some disadvantages. These boots are all basically workable.
Atomic, Dolomite Syntesi, Dalbello, Rossignol for 2003, the Nordica soft boot (I have forgotten its name)

Here are some boots I would avoid.
All soft boots except the Nordica, Salomon Performa, any Rossignol made before this year.

I hope this has not been too much information. I hope you have a great season.

Jeff
I just realized that many of you may not know that World Cup racers use boots that are typically not available in the United States. These boots are noticeable in that they are extremely basic. They do not have the "bells and whistles" that the store bought boots have. Why? Because these features do not usually work well for anything other than marketing boots. These boots are also narrower than production boots because the manufactures provide the athletes with technicians who can fit the boots. The only World Cup level boots that are available in the US are the Nordica Doberman, Tecnica XT 17, 24, Salomon Plug, Head Plug and Rossignol Plug. (Note that these race boots have only been available in the US for the last three years.) You may have noticed that Lange is not on this list. You cannot buy a Lange race boot in the US. (Ironically, you can by Rossignol whose design is based on a Lange, not a production Rossignol.)

This is not to say that full race boots are better for most skiers. Most skiers will find them too narrow and lacking cushion. Still, you may want to consider these if you have narrow feet, especially if you are narrow in the heel.(Most production boots are to wide in the heel.) These boots have a reputation as being super stiff but a number of them flex better than their production counterparts. These more flexible ones, such as the Tecnica 17, the Rossignol Plug A and B flex, and the Doberman XS can make good freeskiing boots for skilled skiers.

This will probably not make certain ski reps happy, but the American skiing public has the right to know.

Jeff</font>
Lange sure does have a true plug !!! The RL1 with b/c or d uppers !

CUSTOM BOOT FITTING SERVICES AND CUSTOM ORTHOTICS -- AMERICA'S BEST BOOTFITTERS

Check out Greg Hoffman's Ski Boot Fitting website for more...

post #78 of 275
What does b/c or d uppers mean? Is this a different size cuff?
post #79 of 275
[ November 07, 2002, 07:23 PM: Message edited by: gman14 ]
post #80 of 275
Wow, a dream come true, a bootfitter who knows what they are talking about. Too bad I don't live in Colorado or I would be to your shop in about 1/2 a second. I have never had boots that fit even half decent. My current boots are size 23 Lange GX7 for women. I have superfeet cork custom footbeds. I bought them a couple seasons ago. They have always been way too tight in the forefoot area. I have had them grinded and stretched until now there is nothing left to grind or strech. They are still too tight. I also lose feeling to my toes when I wear them and my toes get REALLY cold. And despite how tight they are everywhere else my heel still slides a lot. I REALLY like tight fitting heel areas.

I am going to buy new boots this season. The problem is I am 18, 5'1" 110 pounds so every time I go into a shop they assume I don't ski well and try to sell me intermediate boots, even after I tell them I am advanced. The shop people often tell me that because of my size the intermediate boot will work still because I am lightweight and don't need anything stiffer. I tried on a Nordica boot that seemed to fit well the other day, it was the Wave 8 for women. I am wondering if maybe the Wave 11 for women or maybe even the Beast will be better for me. I figure if it is too stiff it will be easier to soften then it would be to stiffen an overly soft boot. Also there is 3 different types of liners that Nordica uses in their wave models, only the Beast and W12 have the performance fit, which I take to mean they are less cushy but offer better response. The other ones have what they call a precision fit, seems like its more comfort geared. So I am wondering if it would be worth getting the Beasts or W12s and then softening the flex to get the higher performance liner. I don't trust shop guys anymore cause they seem to lie to me. One guy said the Beast doesn't come any smaller then like 26 and I looked on the website and it comes as small as 23. Also, is there much difference between womens and mens boots besides flex. The Beast doesn't come in a womens specific model, but would it matter?

Here is another question. I am debating between the 23 and the 23.5 in the Nordica's. From what I have been told the shell is the same for both, but the liners are different. I tried on the 23.5, they didn't have 23 in stock, it felt quite snug and my toes were to the end of the liner. I dont want it to pack out and have the fit become sloppy though. But I am worried that a 23 wouldn't be long enough, would the length of them stretch out as well when they pack out?
And one more question (sorry I have so many) I have sculiosis in my back (curvature of the spine) my doctor attributed this to the fact that my right leg is 7mm shorter. He gave me a little heel lift to put in my right shoe to compensate and possibly straighten the curvature somewhat. It is important my back get better because he also thinks it is related to my knee problems that have been making skiing really painful. Anyways, I will be skiing 100+ this season so he says I need to wear the insert in my ski boot too. But this would make the one boot fit tighter then the other. And it seems that since each foot would be at a different angle that could effect my skiing. Any suggestions? Thank you so much for taking the time to help all of us, I had no where else to turn and wasn't getting straight answers from anyone, thank you.
post #81 of 275
Jeff,

Great board thanks for all of the helpful information. I recently tried on a pair of Tecnica XT 17. They were some of the best fitting boots out of the box that I have tried on. I was able to fit my foot in with no problem and buckle them on the 3rd to 4th bails. I have narrow feet about an A-B width with a low volume lower leg, plus very little flexibility in my ankles. I am 6.1 and weigh about 180. I a strong intermediate skier an average about 20 days a year, half in Colorado and half in New England. I have been through three pairs of boots in the past four years. A pair of Rossi Mountain Vipers, Lange ACD 8 which where to wide, and a pair of Raichle Flexon, to big wrong size (29). I currently ski in a pair of Salomon Pro-Model Boots size 27.5 (I wear a size 12 street shoe). The 27.5 is a race fit, as one can barely see day light between my foot and shell when shell fit. The liners have been all padded up to take up some of the ankle movement and fill other spaces. My question is how much can these boots (Tecnica XT) be softened? Would you recommend these as all mountain boots if softened enough?

Please Advise

[ November 08, 2002, 08:51 AM: Message edited by: gman14 ]
post #82 of 275
Jeff.. you sound like a good guy. Definitely sounds like you know what you're talking about. First let me say that my boot fitter is Brian E. at the Ski Center in DC. He is one of the only (if not the only) certified pedorthists in the region. He made my DFP footbeds and examiners are constantly complementing my stance (and that's with a blown fascia in my left foot).

Here's the issue (I'm just getting a second opinion here)... I have a D-E width forefoot, with an average to slightly narrow heel. I'm in a Technica Innotec 9x ladies size 23 shell with zipfit liners (which are a season older than the shells). The end of last season while skiing hard and fast (something I don't get to do often while teaching), my ankles started killing me. I'm talking internally (tendons, ligaments, muscle) strain. The shells are the correct size. Best guess as to what's going on?
post #83 of 275
Hey..I'm glad you are doing this! I am wanting a boot that is an all around performer. In saying this I kind of mean "all mountain" I have like size 10 feet that are pretty narrow for a man...Is there a boot manuf. that tends to make boots on the narrow side? Any info would be great and I do understand that boots are the most important part of any ski rig. What are your suggestions?
post #84 of 275
Jeff,

This thread is great, I've learned a lot. I'm new to using my own equipment, and have been surviving with rentals the past several years. However, I jsut went to a large sporting goods store during their sale and picked up an entire ski set with boots. I've tried on several boots by rossingnol, solomon, and dalbello (sorry if I misspelled any of these). And the Dalbello were the only ones that fit me comfortable w/o any excess space in the heels or toe area. They were also the cheapest at $50.

The name of the boot is the Dalbello CarveX Extreme, it's red and black with silver aluminum buckles. It has a forward lean angle, canting, and heel angle adjustment.

I'm wondering what you would reccommend as a starting point adjustment for the heel angle? There's a *LITTLE* bit of extra room in the heed area, so should I adjust the angle until the boot is snug all around? Also, what temp boots are these? I can't find any info online, and what do you think of this particular boot?

Oh, and 5'9" and 150lbs, Intermediate skiier, and using Atomic 8.18L skis if it helps. Thanks.
post #85 of 275
Jeff,

Another true race boot available (though not readily) in the North American market is the Atomic Race 2000. It shares the colour of the Race 10.50, Race 11.50, GS:11 and GS:9 (and the junior models too) but has a non-transparent front (similar to the junior Race 7.45). The shell uses stiffer and thicker plastic, and buckles and fasteners are beefier. Because the material is thicker, the fit is narrower than the production model, typical of true race boots. The supplied liner is very similar to the Lange Plug being a thin felt sock with velcroed pockets for adding or removing material arround the achilles area. The tongue is very hard.

Prior to getting this boot last season, I used a preproduction 10.50 (which was 15% stiffer than production model) with a Conformable liner with race foam. The combination was great for me, since my previous boot was the red Atomic Race 10. That Race 10 was probably put onto Jimmy Hoffa's feet before he was pushed off the pier. God they were heavy and the flex was real stiff until they moved a certain amount, and the collapsed.

The Race 2000 is the best boot I've ever had. I spent a few hours total with Kim Hoydall and Jay Taylor (of Snowcovers in Vnacouver and Whistler) and had the forefoot widened and a punches near the ankle. After sking about 1 month, I had the soles planed on their self designed and built machine so that I am 1 degree inside. The tops of the toe and heel binding interfaces were filled and then routered so top and bottom are parallel and confirm to DIN. I was 0 on my left and 2 inside on the right before. The planing helped my skiing immediately, allowing equal angulation and a much wider stance than before. I use Superfeet Cork Vacs and use a Therm-ic boot dryer after every day on the hill. The only problem is I need the boots to be at least room temperature in order to get on without cursing like a drunk sailor, and they get cold when I stand on the snow for a long period (doing demos and race service).

So, to the question part....

Have you seen the planing system that Snowcovers uses, and/or do you use a similar system or perform planing freehand like many other shops around here?

BetaRacer

ps, shouldn't a new thread be started for each new question? Also, should there be a page dedicated to technical questions regarding these issues and other issues beyond the normal one posed in the Gear section?
post #86 of 275
Jeff:

I'm skiing in a Tecnica Icon, with custom footbeds made by a pretty competent fitter in Seattle. I love the boots, outstanding fit and performance they give me on my Atomic 11.20s.

Question: A problem arose last year, after about 20 days of shear bliss on the footbeds, I was standing around, maybe 10-15 minutes watching my son race or compete in freestyle, I got excruciating cramping in the center of the ball of my foot. One time I had to remove the boots to message the cramoing away. Again the ONLY time I get any pain or cramping is standing around, I know, I know - don't stand around- ski boots are to be skied in not stand around in. What are your thoughts on this cramping situation? My bootfitter says bring them in for a look. I'll take them in next week. FYI: I have maybe 60 days on footbeds and 120 on boots, all in great shape.
Thanks,
:
post #87 of 275
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by HaveSkisWillClimb:
Hi Jeff,
I'll be heading down for my annual alignment tune-up in a week
or so. I love what Atomic's 9.50Race boot does for my skiing. It's SligHtly lower cuff buckles are great for my shorter leg makeup (I'm 5'8")..how cheaply they are made or not.

(HOWEVER There is one "BUT"! = 1 long Question..
______________
With my wide forefoot, narrow heel & high instep...much of
the outer portions of my feet away from the joints...are
rather fleshy.....and I wish the Atomic liners were beefier!
...cause I seem to feel some day to day inconsistent hotspots here & there.
The shell's sizing is terrific...but I'm wondering which way
I should go with the liner issue.
a) filling in with foam(on inner face of the shell)
>>> OR <<<
b) finding a beefier liner THAT'LL FIT in ATOMICS WELL...!?

The Atomic Liners just feel so soft...I think my bootfitter
might give me the $$$_saving option to fill in with foam a
bit, but maybe just taking it out and finding/throwing in
a better liner might be better overall...esp. after packing
out.
Any opinion welcomed....

thanks,
Steve
Steve,
It sounds like you are basically getting pressure on the outsides of your feet. Most likely a beefier liner will do nothing to help this problem. This problem is usually caused by a lack or room or poorly made footbeds. To check your room, put your foot into the shell and center the foot lengthwise in the boot. Check the problem area for room. Most likely your foot is touching both edges of the shell in this area. It may even be squeezed. This means you need to make more room in the shell by stretching it out. There is a slight possibility that a foam liner may help because it may have less volume in this area that a stock liner.

The other possibility is that your footbeds have a large rigde in this area and that is causing excessive pressure. This is very common and I recommend you find a footbed without this problem.

As a note, I had a client come in with this same problem. He is a coach, so it was critical that we fix the problem. In his case the solution was to replace the liner with a THINNER liner. This gave his foot more room and he has been comfortable ever since. This might work for you.

Jeff
post #88 of 275
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by DangerousBrian:
Great thread Jeff,

I have Strolz Boots and went for them to fill in all the imperfections with my feet which are -

a) High arch - I had difficulty getting my feet into a boot that fit before trying Strolz.
b) Thin ankles - the padding of standard off the shelf boots never seemed to give my ankle a snug fit.
c) One foot longer than the other - e.g. with my walking boots one is always tighter fitting than the other and sometimes I wear 2 socks on my smaller foot and 1 sock on the other.

165 Ibs, 5'8" size 7-8 (UK) feet.

My questions are

1. When you say the Strolz "do not ski well" what exactly do you mean?

2. In view of my above problems what boot(s) would you suggest.

3. You don't seem too keen on mould-able linners are there any you do recommend?

4. Is there a simple way to test if a boot is too stiff or not?

DB
Brian,

1. The poor flex pattern of the Strolz boot reduces your ability to balance in more varied terrain or more athletic types of skiing.
2. You do not mention which how wide your forefeet are. If they are not too wide, you would probably do well with a Nordica Doberman XS or a Tecnica Icon XT. If the forefoot is a little too wide for these boots you could try a Lange 100 series boot. If your forefoot is very wide, nothing will work ideally. Still, a Tecnica Rival or a Nordica Beast might be ok. You could always add a foam liner to the boot later.
3. I am guessing you are from Europe, since you give your UK foot size. There may be better liners available over there than we have in the US. Actually, the problem with foam liners is not liner but the foam. We only seem to get bad foam (too soft) in the US now. The situation may be different in Europe.
4. Test flex by putting the boot on and see if you can move it fairly easily. While flex indexes are helpful, rely on your own judgement. Also, make sure that the upper cuff actually moves. Quite a few boots only flex at the tongue and liner and do not at the shell. Ideally, you should easily be able to flex the boots forward two to four inches.

Jeff
post #89 of 275
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by DangerousBrian:
Great thread Jeff,

I have Strolz Boots and went for them to fill in all the imperfections with my feet which are -

a) High arch - I had difficulty getting my feet into a boot that fit before trying Strolz.
b) Thin ankles - the padding of standard off the shelf boots never seemed to give my ankle a snug fit.
c) One foot longer than the other - e.g. with my walking boots one is always tighter fitting than the other and sometimes I wear 2 socks on my smaller foot and 1 sock on the other.

165 Ibs, 5'8" size 7-8 (UK) feet.

My questions are

1. When you say the Strolz "do not ski well" what exactly do you mean?

2. In view of my above problems what boot(s) would you suggest.

3. You don't seem too keen on mould-able linners are there any you do recommend?

4. Is there a simple way to test if a boot is too stiff or not?

DB
Brian,

1. The poor flex pattern of the Strolz boot reduces your ability to balance in more varied terrain or more athletic types of skiing.
2. You do not mention which how wide your forefeet are. If they are not too wide, you would probably do well with a Nordica Doberman XS or a Tecnica Icon XT. If the forefoot is a little too wide for these boots you could try a Lange 100 series boot. If your forefoot is very wide, nothing will work ideally. Still, a Tecnica Rival or a Nordica Beast might be ok. You could always add a foam liner to the boot later.
3. I am guessing you are from Europe, since you give your UK foot size. There may be better liners available over there than we have in the US. Actually, the problem with foam liners is not liner but the foam. We only seem to get bad foam (too soft) in the US now. The situation may be different in Europe.
4. Test flex by putting the boot on and see if you can move it fairly easily. While flex indexes are helpful, rely on your own judgement. Also, make sure that the upper cuff actually moves. Quite a few boots only flex at the tongue and liner and do not at the shell. Ideally, you should easily be able to flex the boots forward two to four inches.

Jeff
post #90 of 275
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Tog:
Jeff,
Thanks for the great thread.
I wonder if you could discuss foam liners.

To Foam or not to Foam? That is the Question.

This comes up a lot in the boot fitting questions here. My one experience with foam didn't work. It was a good shop in Taos but (of course didn't find this out till I got home) I had wrinkles in the ankle and too much foam behind the heel. It wasn't that snug after a short while either.

I threw those out liners out. (Actually they hung out in the basement in the "Museum of Things That Didn't Work" -ski boot department. There was a pretty big display there of old boots that were "great" but gave black toes every year on the first mogul run and after much suffering were discovered to be not too small but too big!. Insoles made by those guys who "really know what they're doing". The very first one I got that had tin foil on the bottom and was about as supportive as a wet paper towel, or another one I got two years ago saying I wanted "really good arch support". Well I skied one day with my new "solution to the problem" and my knees hurt for a week. Occasionally the show was interactive- my last too large shell size boot w/original liner in good shape(because it was replace by the lousy foam one. was picked up by my brother in law. "Hallelujah" he said about getting that boot though I have a sneaking suspicion now it should be back in the museum.
Eventually though, the "curator" decided it was time for a new exhibit- "The Clean Room" so these priceless artifacts are now gone. I'm not fond of that new exhibit.)

Well, back to the subject. It looks like this year I'll have another boot for the museum or should I foam? I've got a narrow foot, low instep, low volume. My right foot is a little over 10, my left about 10 3/4. My current boot is a Lange L-10 World Cup ("plug" boot) in a shell size 27 (size 9). Stretched, ground out at the heel and punched out for the little toes. Well, after about 2 weeks I kept wanting more filling. Guy at shop had a pair of Doberman liners he sold me for 50$. Much, much better. (Stock lange w/c liner couldn't have been made cheaper-even in China. Well, they do have lots of rice paper there...)
But now even these liners are shot. I've had the cuff wrapped with foam rubber, pads in lots of areas esp. the mid foot, and they're still not good on choppy, unpredictable snow, or difficult terrain. It feels like I don't have control. I can ski easy groomers with only one buckle tightened so they're not "huge" but they just don't cut it.
Should I go down another shell size and have a toechtomy and other stretching performed? or foam these current 27 shells? These shells have been planed for canting and have 5mm lifters, so there's a lot of work that's gone into them.
I did try on a few boots in a 26 - Tech. Icon xt, Dobermann xs, Lange world cup. Icon felt the best probably, though pivot point seemed a little high and forward and it had too much forward lean. Doberman xs seemed too low in the front cuff but probably had best foot hold.-Maybe the regular Dobermann? Lange w/c not as good in foot as others. Haven't tried Head n97 yet, tried the M103 in 27 shell - good cuff, heel but way too big in foot.

It's looking like they'll be a big new exhibit with my current boot. A shell, two liners, all sorts of padding and shims, a pair of insoles melted by a dryer on the wrong voltage in Europe.

Seems like ski boots always become a comedy of the absurd.
Tog,
First of all, it is clear that you are serious about boots so I will answer you with that in mind. Your best bet may be the Icon XT in a 26, assuming that it fits well. If you want it to be more upright, simply remove the forward lean shim in the back. The hinge point should not be a problem. I think this boot skis very well.

If you want to keep Langes, you might actually put the original liners back into the boots. Yes, these liners are about the cheapest liners ever made, but they are easy to improve. To tighten them, simply cut some dense 1/8" EVA foam and insert it to the liner where the velcro opens. The key is to not overdo it, which is what sounds like happened to your Doberman liners.

As far as your foam experiment goes, I am not surprised it did not work well. The footbeds you are describing are Sidas and they are terrible. You sound like you are a pretty serious skier and foam liners are probably not going to do the job for you.

Jeff
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