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Two techniques to discuss - who wants to analyze photos?

post #1 of 14
Thread Starter 
Just to get some content in here. I could post this comparison as well on bomber but lets have some discussion on here. You could add photos of yourself or of professionals too (of any sort and we could discuss about it and have some fun - lets just enjoy that epic got its boarder forum too now)

Hi here are two backsides. First is a picture of me. Next of my friend Gerry. Feel free to say anything you think about the techniques and its advantages against each other. There are problems both of us phase in each picture. Both have their strengths too. I will tell you what we think about it later.

Mine is more at the beginning of the turn

http://img128.imageshack.us/my.php?i...ackside8yh.jpg


This is just before exiting the turn


http://img128.imageshack.us/my.php?i...nkrften6wy.jpg
And here are two Frontsides. They too show similar technical differnces. Again we are both rock stable on our setup and can carve or racecarve down pretty much anything.


http://img128.imageshack.us/my.php?i...ontside7kc.jpg


http://img128.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gerryfs3ku.jpg

Edited: Put in the links. Don't really understand why the thumbnails don't work as normal. Well now each with a link
post #2 of 14
Ok I'm an old guy and I wear bifocals. But I think those pics are too small for anyone to see anything technique wise. Can you host higher res pics on a different server and link them in?
post #3 of 14
I'm not a snowboarder but just looking at posture, from the perspectives taken,

the lower boarder appears to ride with his torso behind his hips, and with his hips behind his feet

the upper boarder seems to have a more forward, aggressive/attack looking stance on the board.

said differently,

the upper boarder looks dynamic

the lower boarder looks park-and-ride with a little "Keep on Truckin" added for good measure. maybe he just got back from his safety break?
post #4 of 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzostrike
I'm not a snowboarder but just looking at posture, from the perspectives taken,

the lower boarder appears to ride with his torso behind his hips, and with his hips behind his feet

the upper boarder seems to have a more forward, aggressive/attack looking stance on the board.

said differently,

the upper boarder looks dynamic

the lower boarder looks park-and-ride with a little "Keep on Truckin" added for good measure. maybe he just got back from his safety break?
You can see that? I can barely see that there is a boarder in those pics, let alone anal-ize them.
post #5 of 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by philsthrills
You can see that? I can barely see that there is a boarder in those pics, let alone anal-ize them.
in the top pair.

the bottom could be blackflies in February for all I know.
post #6 of 14
Thread Starter 
Just edited my post above. Now you have all pics in 2560x1920 pixels.
post #7 of 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by extremecarver
Just edited my post above. Now you have all pics in 2560x1920 pixels.
please resize to 800x600 next time.

i will not comment on the boarders. not my cup of tea.
post #8 of 14
Of all those photos, the first one is the only one where the rider doesn't seem to be preoccupied with putting a hand on the snow.

The problem with intentionally dragging a hand, is that it makes you get really banked (leaning into the turn too much). If you are doing that intentionally, just for fun, that's one thing. The snow there is perfect for it. However, if that's how you make every turn, you'll have issues.

Banking heavily into the turn will allow very little room for adjustments to edge angle and position on the board. You want to keep your torso as upright as possible. Only start banking into the turn when you get to the point that it's the only possible way to counteract the forces drawing you to the outside of the turn. But even then, being angulated lowers your center of mass, helping get you inside the turn more.

When I'm diggin trenches like that, I'll try to forcefully keep my inside hand off the snow, raising the inside shoulder. Sure, once in a while, I'll drag a hind, even just for fun, but when I do, I want my arm to be down, and my hand to be right next to my butt, not all streched out, reaching for the snow at a 90 degree angle to my body.

In the second photo, the rider is way back, but there's no way to tell if that's a normal riding position for him, or if he just got too far back in that one turn.
post #9 of 14
See the bumps in the 3rd picture? That's where you should be boarding.
post #10 of 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by MilesB
See the bumps in the 3rd picture? That's where you should be boarding.
but there's no stairs or rails there, brah!
post #11 of 14
Thread Starter 
Well I will tell a bit more about the pics now. Nice analysis by John.

Pic 1: This pic is me on a backside putting lots of weight on the shovel. Actually too much. I'm using a Pull-Push technique. Later on in the turn (if I would like to opt for finishing it, which I do not) I would get problems to close the turn because i have too much weight on the front. So once I have pressed my legs through I am pretty much forced to enter a new FS turn. This is very well adapted to a race course where there is no need for "closing the turn". However to adapt my speed I will have to drift, which is quick in the course, but bad stylewise. My position is pretty much bombproof. Due to having my knees flexed strongly and having the board heavily angulated I can easily get through moguls. I only get problems on very, very icy sketches where I sometimes loose my edge in the Push phase.

Pic 3: The second pic from me. Actually this pic shows quite a lot of technical mistakes. First is my arm which shouldn't be in the snow! However having it in the snow makes it easier if I slip but brings my Body weight away from the board. Very bad. Second. I wanted to do a bit of rotation technique which I am not good at. Therefore I break at the waist. Looking at my knee one can see that I cannot lean in much more, I think I had my boot in walk-mode during that shot, however I am not sure about it. Third: while I push my back knee very hard to the snow, I forgot about pressing to the snow with my front knee. Add furter mistakes at your pleasure, there are some (again Pull-Push technique).

Now onto my friend (using Push-Pull technique and rotation).

Pic 2: In this picture there is huge pressure on the back of his board. He is just closing the turn. He probabely makes a 6m radius at the moment with his 15m radius board. His speed is much lower than my speed of riding. His goal is kinda to achieve maximum lean without doing a bodycarve. Normally he is doing a Push-Pull but in this situation he simply counldn't handle the gravity and it became more of a Pull-Push turn.

Pic4: Not many flaws for what Gerry wanted to achieve. Taking the hand out of the snow would indeed allow him to carve even harder but requires a lot of trust into the board.


All above is just my interpretation. If you think somethink is different go for it.
post #12 of 14
While I would agree that having your hand near or on the snow will keep your face off the ground if the board comes out from under you, I'll suggest that if you angulate more (don't lean in with your upper body) you are a LOT less likely to have the board come out from under you. Also, if it does, you'll be in a position where you can move with the skidding board, and not have your face thrust twoard the snow surface.
post #13 of 14

my2cents

I might suggest that you both seem to hunch forward a little bending at the waist. And are reaching into the snow with your inside hand.Maybe try steering from the waist. Keep the back (spine) straight. shoulders level.Arms level with shoulders.Initiate the turn by driving the waist into the turn slightly ahead of the shoulders.This seems to work for either side turn. Drive the knees and inside hip hard into the snow while keeping the shoulders and forearms level. I tend to drive my front knee to almost touching (sometimes dragging)the snow on a toeside turn, and my rear knee almost touching (sometimes dragging) the snow on a heelside.You will feel your lower rib squeeze against your upper pelvis in a deep carve. just my 2cents.
post #14 of 14
this thread is heaven-sent.
I worked with one of snowboarding's winningest coaches, back in 'de day', and he once said that you can have two photos of two athletes in the same exact turn, using two diametrically opposed principles to obtain pictures which are absolutely indistinguishable.
and, lo and behold, here's something right along that line.

The principle my coach was referring to is 'driving' the board.
if you stand between two ...let's say...stanchions, about 4 ' high, and you support your weight on them with your arms and sllide your snowboard back and forth beneath you, dynamically, this is 'drive.
the principle is that you initiate your turn with your feetsesses behind the axis of your knees, crux your turn with your feeetesses beneath your knees, and complete the turn with yer feetesses in front of your knees, by dynamically pushing them ahead through the turn.
now, if you have someone who throws their upper body over the shovel of the board (which is more or less neccessary in either case, but that's another story where jeff bergeron late of the a-basin adult ski racing program might chime in...jeff?)
and leans, passively, back over the board through the turn.
frame-by-frame, the two riders will appear, in stills, to be performing the self-same movement, but the latter rider is still just standing on his sled, at themercy of his sidecut to dictate the radius.
the former rider is taking a very aggressive role in dictating his radius by dynamically slicing his board from back-to-front underneath him, while keeping his body mass, at all times, centered over the axis of his head-knee CG.
the guy who's leaning from front to back throughout the turn is not centered, and has far less effective pressure on his edge.
*
*
now, then- the point?
you can't really tell, from the still picture, how the rider has attained the pictured attitude in that snapshot of his/her turn.
This 'drive' from the beneath the knees (skiing from the feet up, as opposed to the inverse) is standard tech for really good ski and snowboard racers....in fact, the higher the level of training and competition, the far fewer the differences in alpine competition between snowboard and ski.
unfortunately, 'drive' isn't espoused by our PSIA, although I've had examiners (Jim Cardinelli comes immediately to mind) whom taught it, and taught it well.
Jeff and I will cover it in the book.
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EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › Snowboarding Discussions, Gear and Instruction › Two techniques to discuss - who wants to analyze photos?