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2 Collisions in 2 days - Page 2

post #31 of 57
[quote=james]Here we go again. If this guy was at Mountain Creek then what he is saying is in no way applicable to any other situation. I have skied there and I have to say this place is unlike any other ski area I have ever seen. We may be discussing an area that rents out all of its rental equipment on the weekends (thats 2,000 pairs) and has 170 skiable acres. I would estimate (conservatively) 3,000 skiers on a weekend, I mean look at the lifts they have, this place is a nightmare...QUOTE]

Uh. Well, I went ahead and did rudamentary calculations, just for the heck of it, and came up with these numbers for theoretical number of SPORES per acre, assuming total terrain openness, and all rentals out. This does not factor in spastic people on their own skis, spastic people on their friends skis, or any other type of spastic people.

Whitetail: 34 SPORES per acre.
Mountain Creek: 12 SPORES per acre.
Obergatlinburg (my home mtn) 48 SPORES per acre. 1850 sets of skis/boards, 38 skiable acres, and I assure you, there are way more than that. EVERY rental goes out, plus the spastic local punks, plus the obnoxious people who can actually ski. Couple that with the fact that all the hill is NEVER open, and you're looking at about 60 SPORES per acre.

I see no less than 1 out of control skier PER RUN EVERY time I ride the lift, which is a lot considering the massive 500 total feet of vert. I've been hit 3 times in less than 50 days of skiing, and when I was learning, I slid on my back into a snowboarder. He was sitting still on the hill. My fault: yes. I was out of control in a fall situation. Should he have been sitting there? No.

I see at least one person per day leave the mountain in an ambulance. I've seen 15 year olds who weigh 110 lbs on rentals with DINs of 10. I've seen people lose their boots while skiing because they wern't on correctly. There is no SPORE scenario I have NOT seen. From the experiences I've had, I've drawn the following, earth-shattering conclusion. Ready?

What it really comes down to is this: people either A: choose to educate themselves, or B: they choose to be stupid.

When I learned to ski, I enrolled in a 4 lesson course which "taught" me how to ski. Before I ever went, I spent upwards of 3 hours online reading everything I could find about learning to ski. By the time I showed up for my first lesson, I understood in theory: The Skier's Responsiblilty Code, how to use every piece of equipment I was to wear while skiing, how to load and unload lifts, snowplow turns, skidded turns, and speed control.

All that is to say: there are two types of snowriders out there: Those who choose to be smart and educate themselves about snowriding in general, and those who are stupid and choose to ignore all rules of common sense and responsibility.

Now, why is this? Several people have hit upon the concept that people aren't learning the code any more, and they aren't taking lessons starting out. This is a HUGE problem where I ski/snowboard. Punks learn to ride from their punk friends who learned from their punk friends, whose Dad took a lesson before teaching them.

Like any good thing which passes through numerous generations/groups of people, the most important safety rules and common courtesy is lost. Suddenly, we have ignorant people completely out of control barreling down the mountian, unable to stop, control their speed, or understand the consequences of what they're doing.

Ignorance runs rampant. Its cure is education, but people generally choose to skip the education part these days, in favor of having fun. The sad result is lots of stupid people moving at high velocities.

On an entertaining note, I once built a jump at our local hill, and by about 5 PM, it was perfectly dialed. I was standing in line to hit it when a guy yells "Hurry up you pussy!" So, I pushed off, executed a perfect Japan Air and pulled up clear of the landing zone to watch my friend. Idiot SPORE who yelled at me cuts my friend off, nearly causing her to crash into a snowmaking pipe, nails the thing doing about mach 2, yardsales, and pulls up right at my feet. I calmly offered him a hand, got him halfway up, shoved him back into the snow, and explained in monosylables how I had built the jump that he nearly ruined, and that if he ever threatened my or my friend's safety again, I would be forced to A: Make sure that he was not capible of walking off of the mountian, much less skiing off, and B: make sure that he never reproduced. Dumb SPORES.
post #32 of 57
Had pulled off to the side of a trail in Europe...two minutes later snowboarder comes up threatening to punch my lights out....didnt know why.......he tells me becuase I was skiing his line. ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??


Australia (which is producing areputation as the worst boarders in the world, appalling behaviour) is introducing piste police. I saw them at Mount Hotham two years ago. The rules are simple, like any other road rules. Police them. I am sure that a parent driving 2 hours up a mountain to collect their 16 year old hooligan from the police station will make them take responsibility for their breeding.

France which has the biggest ski areas in the world has a billion dollar problem with skiing being so accessible to so many novices. (BOARDERS !). Again piste police are going to be brought in over the next couple of years...no choice, speed limits will even be enforced ,sad, as insurance is just out of control, the medical bills along with helicopters etc is too much.

The problem with boarders is that they are able to get around the mountain quite easily after a couple of days (no lessons--to cool). Skiing is an art, a skill, boarding is for knuckle heads. Give 'em a park, a run and let 'em kill each other,...problem solved.
post #33 of 57
My resolution not to weigh in on this stuff just went out the window: I wish we would stop, stop STOP all this generalized snowboard bashing. It just makes us seem mean spirited.

my mother had her spine fractured by an out of contol SKIER. yesterday during clinics on our mountain three people got smashed by speeding, incompetent SKIERS. My would be adaptive students were used as human slalom gates by a 'hotshot' SKIER. No snow sliding equimpent users have a monopoly on assholity.
post #34 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mom
My resolution not to weigh in on this stuff just went out the window: I wish we would stop, stop STOP all this generalized snowboard bashing. It just makes us seem mean spirited.

my mother had her spine fractured by an out of contol SKIER. yesterday during clinics on our mountain three people got smashed by speeding, incompetent SKIERS. My would be adaptive students were used as human slalom gates by a 'hotshot' SKIER. No snow sliding equimpent users have a monopoly on assholity.
AMEN! It's not the equipment! It's the attitude!
post #35 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mom
my mother had her spine fractured by an out of contol SKIER. yesterday during clinics on our mountain three people got smashed by speeding, incompetent SKIERS. My would be adaptive students were used as human slalom gates by a 'hotshot' SKIER. No snow sliding equimpent users have a monopoly on assholity.
The difference between out-of-control skiers and boarders is that boarders have less warning and control when they fall. And if they fall with their board downhill, they turn into bulldozers. Boarders (of equal ability) also fall more often than skiers.

I haven't been hit by anybody in years because when I stop on groomers, I do so in a backwards wedge facing directly uphill. If a boarder puts me on the outside of a turn I plant my pole so that if he loses his edge his board will hit my pole instead of me. (Many broken poles but no limbs).

It's common knowledge in Summit County among medical workers (my wife is one) that most of the collision injuries here are due to boarders hitting others. It is the equipment. One can simply watch top boarders vs. top skiers in a slalom course and see who has more control.

Steve
post #36 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by breckview
I haven't been hit by anybody in years because when I stop on groomers, I do so in a backwards wedge facing directly uphill. If a boarder puts me on the outside of a turn I plant my pole so that if he loses his edge his board will hit my pole instead of me. (Many broken poles but no limbs).
Good tactic for self preservation. I figured this one out on Saturday while shadowing Jane and her mom. Better protection for everyone involved.
post #37 of 57
A quote from the Ski Area Association: "Snowboarders don't appear to be making the slopes less safe for their skiing peers, either, says Dr. Shealy. A study presented at the Ninth International Symposium on Skiing Trauma and Safety in 1993 indicated that 7.7 percent of all ski injuries are the result of skiers running into skiers, while only 2.6 percent of snowboard accidents are caused this way." BTW, the stats on ski vs snowboard total nubers are very close, so sheer numbers don't account for the difference.

Skiing backward is something I have to do a lot teaching. I'm sure you know this, but can't help pointing out that, while it may give you a visual of the slope above your daughter and wife, if you're not looking downhill, you then become the danger.
post #38 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mom
A study presented at the Ninth International Symposium on Skiing Trauma and Safety in 1993 indicated that
The updated study (2004) states that ski injuries are reported at a rate of 2.63 per 1000 visits while snowboard injuries are reported at a rate of 6.97 per 1000.

http://www.nsaa.org/nsaa/safety/fact...owboarding.asp

Quote:
Skiing backward is something I have to do a lot teaching. I'm sure you know this, but can't help pointing out that, while it may give you a visual of the slope above your daughter and wife, if you're not looking downhill, you then become the danger.
I think we were referring to being stopped. I know I was.

Just my opinion but I would NEVER stop on a groomer with my back facing uphill. And, I'm far more fearful of snowboarders than skiers because they mostly look like they are about to fall at any moment. And most of the time during that fall, the board would be the first thing to hit me.

Steve
post #39 of 57
My worst nightmare is not so much me being hit by an out of control idiot (skier or boarder), it is my daughter being hit. At seven and skiing blues, I feel I must constantly run blocker. Even though she is not in a wedge or sking slowly, she is still slower than probubly half the people on the trail. The sooner she graduates to the blacks the better. IMHO the blacks have fewer nut jobs.

If someone were out of control and hit me or my kid....I am not sure what I would do. Much would depend on their attitude, and how they handled themselves after the colision.

As a side note I have never been hit by another slider. My wife was hit and knocked down while standing on the side of the trail. The guy, who hit her, was also down maybe 10 feet away. He just got up, never looked at my wife or said a word and went on his merry way. I yelled to the young lad, 20 something, to be more careful, he proceeded to give me the finger and tell me to "*&^$ off". I caught him in within a few seconds and we had a few words, mostly mine. Although he did say the she was in his line. (Still scratches head) I informed him of the code and what would have been the courteous thing to do. I also told him he shouldn't flip off people he doesn't know, they might be a black belt and be one appology away ripping his head off and handing it to him. He appologized. Not proud of this sort of stuff, but it seemed like the only thing this person understood.
post #40 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by spork
IMHO the blacks have fewer nut jobs.
As skiers get better they tend to graduate to non-groomed terrain. Snowboarders just go faster on groomers. I ski moguls on every run and almost never do I share the runs with snowboarders. I feel perfectly safe until I get down to the groomed runout which is like entering a highway.

Steve
post #41 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by breckview
The updated study (2004) states that ski injuries are reported at a rate of 2.63 per 1000 visits while snowboard injuries are reported at a rate of 6.97 per 1000.

http://www.nsaa.org/nsaa/safety/fact...owboarding.asp
That's the same page I got my quote from. You need to re-read it. What you are quoting is the number of Snowboarders getting injured vs the numbers of skiers injured. NOT the number of snowboarders vs. skiers CAUSING the injuries.... read further down the page. I know you all want to hold on to your precious predjudice, but does not seem to be supported statistically.
post #42 of 57
Over the many years I have skied both skiers and snowboarders have hit me. I remember being hit by two snowboarders, younger kids, in recent years. Both bounced off me and while not hurt, were shook up a bit. I am big and they took the brunt of the impact. Both apologized. I also noticed that both hit me because they were making a backside turn and were not looking where they were going.

I suspect this backside blind spot is a problem for younger snowboarders, especially when going fast.

As a family we stopped skiing at Mt Hood Meadows because the attitude of the skiers, snowboarders and staff is very poor. We now ski most of the time at Mt. Bachelor - much better attitude by all concerned.

Good luck with the crowded areas where management doesn't give a hoot. In my experience nothing will tame the problem till management takes control and upgrades its own attitude.

Mark
post #43 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mom
That's the same page I got my quote from. You need to re-read it. .... read further down the page.
I assume you're referring to this: "7.7 percent of all ski injuries are the result of skiers running into skiers, while only 2.6 percent of snowboard accidents are caused this way."

That's pretty close to a perfectly meaningless statistic. First we've got to get past the sloppy writing and assume that "this way" means snowboarders running into snowboarders.

That means skiers suffer about .20 injuries per 1,000 skier days from skier-skier collisions and snowboarders suffer about .18 injuries per 1,000 rider days from boarder-boarder collisions, which makes sense given that there are more skiers than boarders. It doesn't tell you anything about the number of boarder-skier or skier-boarder collission injuries reported, and even less about the number of collisions with injuries too minor to report. Nor, for that matter does it tell you anything about how the injuries were distributed among the hit and hitting parties.

If you want to get into wild extraction of conclusions, assume that snowboarders, as a group, are much more likely to be adolescent and sturdier than skiers: say that, in the same event, the snowboarders suffer reportable injury about half as often as the skiers do. This implies that boarders take wildly more risks (5.3 times the number of accidents that would cause reportable injury to skiers), collide with each other somewhat more than twice as often as skiers collide with one another and collide with skiers somewhat more often than that (since there are more skiers). This would mean that about 3/4 of skier injuries from collisions are from being hit by snowboarders.

At the end of the day, I agree with the people who say the equipment isn't the issue. It's really two things (which are, of course, related): age and attitude. The existence of snowboarding hasn't really affected age. The obnoxious 15-year-olds on boards would be obnoxious 15-year-olds on skis if snowboards didn't exist. On the other hand, the snowboarding industry or community, or whatever, does seem to promote an aggressive, careless attitude, in a way the ski industry never really has. That doesn't arise naturally from the shape of the sliding device, but from marketing, etc.
post #44 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mom
That's the same page I got my quote from. You need to re-read it. What you are quoting is the number of Snowboarders getting injured vs the numbers of skiers injured. NOT the number of snowboarders vs. skiers CAUSING the injuries....
You should re-read what I wrote because it's obvious that I understand the quote perfectly. Per visit, one is much more likely to be hurt snowboarding compared to skiing. There are no statistics that compare who is at fault in collisions.

Quote:
I know you all want to hold on to your precious predjudice, but does not seem to be supported statistically.
I have no "precious predjudice". I have MY OPINION based on spending many days per year skiing and the opinions of my wife and her coworkers who deal with the daily injuries that come off the mountains in Summit County specifically.

Steve
post #45 of 57

2 Collisions 2 Days

Makwendo99, Boy rough day - Sure glad I don't ski in your area. My ski area (medium size 6 lifts 3 mts. 1500 acres) does as follows. Stop an offender of whatever, call the ski patrol they take persons name, violation and mark his ticket with a red marker. They then put data in log. 3 offenses you get your ticket yanked or flunk the attitude test youre gone. This came about when we had no policy for sliders jumping off of a moving chairlift. The only problem with this system is it is rarely used. The good news is we have so few "crowds" the bad stuff doesn't happen very often and it happens so seldom compared to i.e., your area that no one sees it that can do anything about the violation. The real good news is (sorry) we never have crowds, the longest lift line I've ever seen, Christmas, was about 90 seconds.

Everbody, great posts (some truly hilarious). I skied Tahoe on weekends and holidays for a few years and then refused to go near the place on weekends and especially Christmas. I was luck having wed and thurs off.

KEEP THOSE POLES POINTED THE PROPER DIRECTION
post #46 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by sjjohnston
I assume you're referring to this: "7.7 percent of all ski injuries are the result of skiers running into skiers, while only 2.6 percent of snowboard accidents are caused this way."

... First we've got to get past the sloppy writing and assume that "this way" means snowboarders running into snowboarders.
Agree it is sloppy writing, but i wasn't the one who extracted. This is what precedes the quote you have above and would not suggest it means snowboarder on snowboarder:

"Snowboarders don't appear to be making the slopes less safe for their skiing peers, either, says Dr. Shealy. A study presented at the Ninth International Symposium on Skiing Trauma and Safety in 1993 indicated that 7.7 percent .." Dr. Shealy having the advantage of seeing the full study.

Unfortunately, I could not find they ever did an updated study in the subsequent congresses of the International Society for Skier Safety. Maybe they could be lobbied to do so. (They did have interesting abstracts on all sorts of other ski related studies.)

Ultimately we agree "that the equipment isn't the issue. It's really two things (which are, of course, related): age and attitude." (and this was supported by the same group's study.)

I would submit, however, that the ski industry has caught up with the snowboarding industry in promoting an aggressive, careless attitude." Have you seen the 'sick dude' skier marketing lately? (example: Tanner Hall image - or dear Bode as of last night's 60 minutes - some threads on TGR.) It has melded into one. The snowboarder I see on the mountain today is just as likely to be a wide-eyed 8 year old girl or an old geezer like me as he/she is to be a teenage boy sporting plumber-crack attire. And you can see plenty of that on skiers these days too.

BTW, Breckview, I knew you were stopped, but when Janesdad wrote about shadowing Jane and her Mom, I assumed he was skiing backward. Not meant as a criticism to him, just a reminder to look downhill too, if that's what he's doing. Having just spent time teaching new instructors how to ski backward with students in crowded conditions, I was painfully aware of the need to be aware.

OK. I have to stop. I knew I shouldn't have started.
post #47 of 57
This thread is like the night of the living dead..

Brains... Brains....

Always coming up for more.
post #48 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mom
Agree it is sloppy writing, but i wasn't the one who extracted.
I realized the sloppy writing was in the original I quoted, and that's whose sloppiness I was poking at.

Quote:
Originally Posted by that website
7.7 percent of all ski injuries are the result of skiers running into skiers, while only 2.6 percent of snowboard accidents are caused this way.
If "this way" means " skiers running into snowboarders" (rather than my interpretation), the study is even more meaningless. I guess it establishes that if a skier runs into someone and causes an injury, it's about as likely that he runs into a skier as a snowboarder (after taking into account that the 2.6% is of a bigger number of injuries, and adjusting for the relative number of skier targets).

What it fails to provide (to an even lesser extent than it does given my interpretation) is any information whatsoever about the incidence of snowboarders running into skiers.
post #49 of 57

Are you in Brecks Marketing department?

Quote:
Originally Posted by breckview
As skiers get better they tend to graduate to non-groomed terrain. Snowboarders just go faster on groomers.
Comedy Gold
Quote:
the groomed runout which is like entering a highway.

Steve
Breckenfridge sounds great!
post #50 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by tief schnee
Are you in Brecks Marketing department?
No, I don't work in the ski business but thanks for asking.

Quote:
Breckenfridge sounds great!
Wow. You know some front range jargon. Very impressive. It is pretty great actually. Seems like every day is another powder day...

Steve
post #51 of 57

.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by skidbump
......Use of tasers and mase will solve all of these and many other problems
Hmmm...FLHMT/RLHMT...the Forward(or Rearward) Looking, Helmet-Mounted Taser.....DARPA's next project skidbump...:.
*Tried SundayRiver this last Saturday with my m666s :..... just couldn't deal with the crowd after 11am....and opted for the X-C/Backcountry setup, loved every second....from noon...on.
post #52 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lisamarie
Furthermore, the Swiss and European skiers and snowboarders give the word "fast" a whole new meaning! However, even though they ski and ride at mach 10, their skills are incredible, and they are completely in control....

Miraculously, there was not one point when I even came close to being hit. It's all about skill.
One thing I've noticed when we moved here is that the Swiss like a lot of personal space. If you stand in a queue with them, there will typically be about 3ft or more between each person. I find this translates onto the ski slope too and people here generally give everyone a lot of space. I'm always struck by the contrast with France where human slaloming is not uncommon. It makes Swiss pistes generally much more comfortable. Although having said that we still go to Courchevel for 2 weeks a year because it's a great place with great skiing, just a comparatively large proportion of idiots
post #53 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by breckview
Wow. You know some front range jargon. Very impressive. It is pretty great actually.
Steve
It's Western Slope jargon too. I have heard good things about it, although I never skied there during the good old days before the move back east.
post #54 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by tief schnee
It's Western Slope jargon too. I have heard good things about it, although I never skied there during the good old days before the move back east.
I actually like name, "Breckenfridge", regardless of whether or not it's actually true that it's colder here. It reminds me that with global warming, the high altitude resorts will eventually be the only viable ski resorts in the west. Therefore, picking this place to live out was and will be a pretty good choice.

Steve
post #55 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by audas
France which has the biggest ski areas in the world has a billion dollar problem with skiing being so accessible to so many novices. (BOARDERS !). Again piste police are going to be brought in over the next couple of years...no choice, speed limits will even be enforced ,sad, as insurance is just out of control, the medical bills along with helicopters etc is too much.
Hum, that's quite over the top... I ski extensively in France (duh...) and I must have been hitted (no harm done) maybe 2 or 3 timesin the recent years. And I tend to ski a lot during the school holidays period. The most recent crash was with a teenage english girl on a snow board, that I've avoided twice and who hit me in the back, with great perfidy, as I've forgot her. I guess I may bash teenagers, women, boarders and brits now...
Now, on a longer frame of time (say, 15 years) it's true that I feel that opportunities for collisions had increased, for a variety of reasons : more unskilled snowboarders (the learning curve is faster with a board), but also better grooming. The almost complete eradiicattion of moguls is cool for the knees, but authorize under qualified skiers or boarders to use too challenging, too steep, runs, with a false sense of safety.
But I don't feel I ski in a demolition derby yet...
post #56 of 57

Choose your ski area

Its a problem in eastern PA area where a lot of ski areas have an older design of the trails with an upper and lower set of trails, a lot of merges and black trails feeding into greens. The newer trails cut are more top to bottom runs with a minimum of merges. Camelback and the older (skier left) part of Blue are particularly bad.
post #57 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maddog
I suspect this backside blind spot is a problem for younger snowboarders, especially when going fast.
Good point about the blind spot. I am always aware of this when passing a boarder. If I'm on his blind side, I make sure I cut wide or pass on the other side where he can see me.

For me, the collisions are what I think is one of the most dangerous aspects of skiing. I'm in control when I ski, but I can't control others around me.

I always practice defensive driving techniques on the slopes. Be aware of the hi traffic areas & merging trails. Anticipate potential collision situations and take measure to avoid. I think it's all my years of riding a motorcyle. You just learn to accept the fact that other drivers may not be able to see you and avoid putting yourself into situations where you might get hit. (ie. avoid being in a blind spot, leave plenty of distance between you and others, etc...)
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