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Bring Back Straight Skis - Page 3

post #61 of 360
Quote:
Originally Posted By Twinsdad+1
Shape skis are an improvement for many people and if you like skiing them great, but this thread has shown there are people on this board who look down on straight ski people. The attitude from them seems to be you are still skiing straight skis because 1) you want people to think you don’t need a shape ski or 2) you don’t know how to ski a shaped ski. My response to that nonsense is I still ski straight skis because I like the feeling I get from skiing them. I hear time and time again where people say “ I love carving on shape skis at high speed” and I love doing that also on straight skis but I also like the feel I get from straight skis when I drop into tight moguls. Or when I go quickly from 4m radius turns to 30m radius turns and back all within a few turns. Shaped skis are fine and they should exist but straight skis are fine also. One side note: If you think that straight skis can’t carve you are mistaken.

If the only criteria for a better ski is skiing faster (ie quicker time in a race) or putting down RR lines in the snow then the modern shape ski is hands down better but when I ski I’m not being timed and I’m not looking back at the snow to see RR lines, I’m skiing because of the wonderful feeling I get and I get that more from straight skis then I do from shaped skis. I ski for the feelings I get from it, the energy I get out of it - not for the way I look or what people think of me.
First off, welcome to EpicSki.

If you think that a straight ski can be skied the same as a shaped ski - you DO NOT know how to ski a shaped ski. Old school carves are essentially what are considered "scarves" these days. If you like the feeling - great - but that doesn't make them a better tool, or you a better skier... in fact it is just the opposite.

Most people who ski on straight skis still, do not know how to ski a shaped ski (most people who ski on shaped skis don't know how to ski them either though). That fact, is why most of them still prefer straight skis. The two tools are different, and do not ski a like. If you ski a shaped ski the same way that you would ski a straight ski, most likely you will hate it. You may be able to get by with old school technique on them, but you certainly aren't even getting to the tip of the iceberg when it comes to their actual performance potential (especially a modern high end ski).

As far as better skiing is concerned, you won't get it on a straight ski... especially when you compare an expert on modern skis to an expert of 15 years ago on 15 year old gear. The shaped skis make a huge difference in what you can actually acheive on skis (carves, angles, float, quickness, etc). Ski technology advances every year, and the skis get better and better. I notice a huge difference in my race stock skis from one year to the next. I can do things on my newest slalom skis that I never thought I could do on my original short slalom skis in 2001.

Unfortunately most skiers don't understand the difference between straight and shaped skis - and especially how to get the most performance/advantage out of new skis. That is well, but those same skiers shouldn't go around touting that straight skis are better, just because they don't understand or know how to use a modern shaped ski. The truth is that many don't know how far you can actually push a shaped ski. Like I said above, ignorance is bliss.

Later

GREG
post #62 of 360
anyone who claims to have made "good turns" on straight skis is quite confused on what is a "good turn", I'll wager.

saying good-bye to straight skis and getting on a decent pair of modern design skis is like moving from undamped wooden spoked wheels and solid rubber tires on a car, to today's variety of wheels & tires run through a competent suspension system with sophsiticated damping.

what was the speed limit on the unsuspended wooden wheel/solid rubber tire combo? 35 mph? 40 mph? and then only if the running surface was free of anything to destabilize the car's line/attitude.

I think that's closer to the proper analogy. auto/manual shift is not even close to describing the difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier
I didn't say that skiers would magically become great skiers becuase most of them suck... actually pretty much all of them suck. Super, you can carve a straight ski. I garuntee you that you can not come close to doing the things (while on straight skis) that those who use modern technique can do with shaped skis... especially a modern equivalent to a Rossi 4S.

Straight skis were/are limited. I can ski circles around (literally) anyone using them - especially on groomers. If you think a Rossi 4S carved, you are definitely not carving turns now... Ignorance is bliss.

Later

GREG
post #63 of 360
Heluvaskeir

Thank you for welcoming me to the board.

You did not read my post correctly. I never said a straight ski skier is better. I said it seems there is an attitude of shape ski skiers to think all straight ski skiers think that. Your post proves my point.

I also never said shaped skis are skied the same way as straight skis.

Just because I prefer straight skis does not mean I don't know how to ski shaped skis. That is a very ignorant assumption. I ski both. I've raced on both but when it comes to enjoying a day on the mountain (bumps, trees, steeps, groomers) I like my straights. You may like shaped and that is great but please don't push your preference on others by saying they don't know how to ski shaped skis.

I stated that shape skis provide a better performance at carving and speed - that's why racers use them. That's why I've used them. But have you noticed what the bump skiers are still using? Straight or at least a lot closer to straight. I also said that there is more to skiing then just RR tracks and speed. There is "feeling".

Again I never said once that straight skis are better. I said people shouldn't go around simply saying shape skis are better period as you have.

Greg I don't mean to start a fight but your post totally misrepresented my post and that is not right. Yes ignorance is bliss and your post proved it.

Just so you don't think I'm anti-shape skis, my twins are getting new shape skis for Christmas.
post #64 of 360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Twinsdad+1
Again I never said once that straight skis are better. I said people shouldn't go around simply saying shape skis are better period as you have.
oh I don't know, Twinpapa.

I think that modern sidecut/dimension/design skis are superior in every way. I think that anyone who's spent a lot of time on both the old designs and the new ones, and who has some modicum of ability and technique, would pretty much agree.

mainly for the reasons provided in the auto analogy that I used above.

perhaps you'd like to share with us the instances where an old pencil ski is superior?
post #65 of 360

old school?

I was a very late convert to new school. In fact every year I make it a point to break out my still mint 1992 Rossignol 4sk's 203. They still ski great and I have fun knowing I can still ski em nicely.

Compare em to my new 168 Volkl Allstars....???

Like comparing my old 1971 Fiat 124 Spyder with a new Miata...

Kinda dumb.

They are much better for one thing tho. Old school ski's make much better Adirondack chairs.
post #66 of 360
No way would I go back to straight skis.

I skied on some RD Coyotes (slalom) until just two years ago and I could make those buggers ski. The only reason I didn't upgrade was because I didn't have the cash. I picked up the cheapest shaped skis I cold find at an end of the year sale at PCMR and it was like being born again.

Now I have no problem purchasing new skis and I am actually excited about spending the dough to get the best on the market.
post #67 of 360
Quote:
Originally Posted by twinsdad+1
Just because I prefer straight skis does not mean I don't know how to ski shaped skis.
I really don't mean to look down on other skiers usually, but if you prefer straight skis, you are not using your shaped skis properly. The only place that staight skis might give you an advantage is in bumps, and even that is a shaky stool to stand on because new bumps skis are shaped... plus I have no problem ripping through a bump run on any shaped skis. So, that said; shaped skis are better. It isn't ignorance at all. I have skied both, and can ski both, well above a skill level that most skiers can even comprehend. I'll keep my modern skis for now.

You are right to put your twins on modern skis.

Later

GREG
post #68 of 360
Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzostrike
anyone who claims to have made "good turns" on straight skis is quite confused on what is a "good turn", I'll wager.

saying good-bye to straight skis and getting on a decent pair of modern design skis is like moving from undamped wooden spoked wheels and solid rubber tires on a car, to today's variety of wheels & tires run through a competent suspension system with sophsiticated damping.

what was the speed limit on the unsuspended wooden wheel/solid rubber tire combo? 35 mph? 40 mph? and then only if the running surface was free of anything to destabilize the car's line/attitude.

I think that's closer to the proper analogy. auto/manual shift is not even close to describing the difference.

Perhaps I was not being concise enough in my statement. There is no doubt that in my mind that currant skis are vastly superior 99.9% of the time, if not 100% of the time to straight skis, your tyre / wheel analogy is very good. My point is that I actually enjoy skiing straight skis because I find them much more involving and challenging, the same way I prefer to drive a 30 year old sports car for pleasure as opposed to a new car, the new car does everything much better….however I do not find it as involving.

A recent thread here was about “good skiing experiences”, for some people that might sleeping in a car and heating a tin of food on a camp stove is a good skiing experience, for others it is a five star resort, for others still it could be heli-skiing. It is not my place to say which is best, everyone has different criteria.

Merry Christmas to everyone, hope you get some slope time on the skis of your choice!
post #69 of 360
Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzostrike
oh I don't know, Twinpapa.

I think that modern sidecut/dimension/design skis are superior in every way. I think that anyone who's spent a lot of time on both the old designs and the new ones, and who has some modicum of ability and technique, would pretty much agree.

mainly for the reasons provided in the auto analogy that I used above.

perhaps you'd like to share with us the instances where an old pencil ski is superior?

I stated that shape skis perform better. They float better, they carve better, they allow you ski race courses faster. As far as bumps and especially on the east coast, I think the straight ski is a bit better. However performance is not the main point of my previous posts. My point is there is more then just performance when skiing. Why must you and Greg insist that if one perfers straight skis they are not good shape ski skiers?

I'm not and I don't believe the originator of this thread was trying to force straight skis on anyone but several people who like shape skis sure are pushing their preferrence. Hey you like shape skis, I like shape and straight and pick my straights when I have the chance.

One question - Why do think that just because someone might like straight skis they don't have some modicum of ability and technique?
post #70 of 360
I think the point is ,The good old days of 1 pair of skis that can do it all.
Bumps ,trees, powder it didn't matter.
The new skis are great and getting better every season ,but you can see from all the threads on this forum that 1 pair of skis isn't good enough anymore.
And maybe because I was 10 -15 years younger ,but I ripped bumps better with a pair of 200cm K2 kvc's than I do now. Actually I know quite well it's the 10-15 years younger thing , but there is not much we can do with that.
post #71 of 360
the "challenge" of skiing straight skis is one I can understand. but it's not one that I want to indulge.

I'll draw another analogy that might make better sense. I used the car analogy only as a means of demonstrating the improvements using someone else's baseline for comparison/analogy (a car).

8 months of the year I am a dedicated MTB rider. I own 4 different MTBs, 2 are "hardtail" with no rear suspension, and 2 are full suspension.

One of the "hardtail" bikes is a singlespeed, meaning I have only one gear to use for all terrain, rather than the 18 gears (2x9) that I have on the other 3 bikes.

The experience of riding the SS bike is more primitive and basic, more essential in a literal sense. One gear for all terrain, living in the Northern Rockies where we have long and fairly steep climbs, means that I either kill myself on the climbs or walk the bike. Now, walking isn't really riding is it? Not in my book it's not.

I could further "purify" the SS experience by replacing the front suspension fork with a rigid fork. I could remove the front disc brake that allows me greater control and stopping power. With these changes, I'd be back to plodding along a relatively tame trail at a low speed of 12 mph or so.

Puritanical, luddite views on "challenge" born from reduced technological dependence have their place, but if you want to be a good Puritan, you need to get off those step-in alpine binders and metal-edged skis, and get onto some longthongs with barrel staves for "skis" and tie your leather hiking shoes to the "skis" with the longthongs.

Quote:
One question - Why do think that just because someone might like straight skis they don't have some modicum of ability and technique?
you are reading that into the post. it's not about "liking" straight skis. I liked all my straight skis. what I am saying is that if you PREFER straight skis, you probably haven't learned how to ski modern skis. that's all I'm really saying. and you can disagree with me, for sure. many do.
post #72 of 360
loboskis, I'm back down to 1 pair.

That said, if folks want to ski straight skis, have a great time. They are more challenging and less capable, that's for sure. Kinda like doing telemark on XC racing skis. But, some folks enjoy the work of overcoming the limitations of the tools to the challenges of stepping up to the highest level on the most effective gear. That's fine. But, please don't think that your skis perform better in any conditions than the modern equivalent. It's just not true.

And to be clear, every person I've seen here talking about the difference and advocating shaped skis have been skiing long enough that they have skied both, and most are exceptionally skilled skiers.
post #73 of 360
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier
I really don't mean to look down on other skiers usually, but if you prefer straight skis, you are not using your shaped skis properly. The only place that staight skis might give you an advantage is in bumps, and even that is a shaky stool to stand on because new bumps skis are shaped... plus I have no problem ripping through a bump run on any shaped skis. So, that said; shaped skis are better. It isn't ignorance at all. I have skied both, and can ski both, well above a skill level that most skiers can even comprehend. I'll keep my modern skis for now.

You are right to put your twins on modern skis.

Later

GREG


I'm sorry but one more quick post before I have to leave. What does "I have skied both, and can ski both, well above a skill level that most skiers can even comprehend". Greg are you on some pro tour or world cup circuit or traveling the world in front of the movie camera? What does that mean? Even if you are some great skier that is a rather selfcentered comment. You might be good but how do you know you are better then anyone else here? What's the criteria? I myself am a rather good skier but I would never say something like that because there is always someone better at any given time. Oh also I noticed in another post you can literally ski circles around straight ski skiers. Does that mean that shape skis even go up hills enough to go completely around another skier? You might want to checkout the correct meaning of literally.


Sorry that my first few posts had to be so confrontational.

Merry Christmas to all.
post #74 of 360
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier
I really don't mean to look down on other skiers...
...but you can't help it. You're reasonable skilled...

(For the sake of those who are new here, that's irony. Greg is an exceptional skier and also very knowledgeable.)
post #75 of 360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Twinsdad+1
Oh also I noticed in another post you can literally ski circles around straight ski skiers. Does that mean that shape skis even go up hills enough to go completely around another skier?
Ummm... yes! I have both seen and done this.
post #76 of 360
Quote:
Originally posted by gonzo
you are reading that into the post.
Actually, thats what I meant. If someone needs a challenge (or ski straight skis for the challenge) they should challenge themselves to learn to ski on shaped skis. By skiing what you've skied for the last 25 years the same way you've skied on that equipment for the last 25 years is not much of a challenge in my opinion.

Later

GREG
post #77 of 360
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh
...but you can't help it. You're reasonable skilled...

(For the sake of those who are new here, that's irony. Greg is an exceptional skier and also very knowledgeable.)
so is ssh.
post #78 of 360
Shaped skis are better in technical turns. Straight(er) skis are superior for long radius arcs, which also include some mogul turns. Fat skis like deep snow. Telemark skis, etc.. etc.

It depends on what you do when you ski and, if you like only one type (like shaped skis), it reflects a preference for one particular type of skiing. Not that there is anything wrong with that.
post #79 of 360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Twinsdad+1
What does "I have skied both, and can ski both, well above a skill level that most skiers can even comprehend". Greg are you on some pro tour or world cup circuit or traveling the world in front of the movie camera? What does that mean? Even if you are some great skier that is a rather selfcentered comment. You might be good but how do you know you are better then anyone else here? What's the criteria? I myself am a rather good skier but I would never say something like that because there is always someone better at any given time.
TD, pretty much. Greg is a racer and coach, as you'll find as you read deeper into EpicSki (which I hope you will do). Please note that he didn't say that you couldn't comprehend his level of skill, just that most can't. And he's right. How many skiers do you know who can comprehend the skills necessary to carve rails into eastern race course ice? Not most, certainly.

I get his point to mean this: his skill level is high enough that he has a very solid basis for objective judgement. For my perspective, I'll ski anything that makes me a better skier, but I'm lazy enough that I'm not going to ski on equipment that makes it harder just to make it harder. I don't need that. I'd rather ski all day and amp up my fun factor than exhaust myself fighting my equipment. Of course, I'm in my mid-40s, now, and would rather ski than train.
post #80 of 360
Quote:
I think the point is ,The good old days of 1 pair of skis that can do it all.
Bumps ,trees, powder it didn't matter.
The new skis are great and getting better every season ,but you can see from all the threads on this forum that 1 pair of skis isn't good enough anymore.
That's actually Pretty Interesting. Are Straight Skis better as all terrain boards? Or is it just that now skis are so specialized (with regard to width, sidecut, etc.) we have become spoiled?

I too have skied both Shaped and Straight skis. I have to say, though, the last time I skied straight skis was the winter before I got shaped skis. I haven't picked them up once since then. So I agree, shaped skis are better.

However, I would not disparage straight ski skiers bye saying "You're technique must be poor, that's why you don't like shaped skis." That's simply not true. Some people just prefer the feel of straight skis. I don't even know if Glen Plake has switched yet. Say what you want about that guy's technique, but he's skied lines that I've only had nightmares about. Sure, HeluvaSkier, you could probably turn circles around him on groomed terrain, and hold your own in the bumps, but are you really going to tell me that his technique is not up to par? When you say:

Quote:
As far as better skiing is concerned, you won't get it on a straight ski
Are you thinking about people like Glen Plake? Or are you just making a generalization about the "average skier?"

The fact is, yes, shaped skis allow me to tighten up my turning radius in ways that were never possible on straight skis. And turning skis by simply tipping them is a boon to novices and experts alike. But there are still some old hardcores out there (pro mogul skiers, old skiing Icons, etc.) that are just fine with straight skis thank you very much.
post #81 of 360
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier
By skiing what you've skied for the last 25 years the same way you've skied on that equipment for the last 25 years is not much of a challenge in my opinion.

Later

GREG
exactly, Greg. I know that from my own recent experience when I returned to skiing in 2000 after a 12-year hiatus. I used straight ski techniques and thought I was doing fine, making "good turns," until one day Yoda caught me by the ear and asked me if I wanted to learn how to get more than 20% of the value I paid for in my ski equipment!

**************

to mattchuck:

when you ski like Glen Plake you are obviously the exception and not the rule. do you ski like Plake? how many others who ski the same terrain as Plake share his predilection for straight pencil skis?
post #82 of 360
Quote:
Originally Posted by S11
Straight(er) skis are superior for long radius arcs, which also include some mogul turns.
True, but modern long-radius skis are still quite a departure from what we skied on before about 2000. And when someone says "straight skis" I think about those pencils, not modern long-radius GS/SG/DH skis.
post #83 of 360
Plake in the park on twin-tips.

How many mogul skiers do you know who skied mogul contests in 1988 on DH boards? Plake skis 218s when he's on straights. To compare himself with the exploits of those skiers from the past.

In other words, he does it because he can. Great. Not because he thinks that they are better or work as well. In fact, from his comment about comparing to others from the past, it's pretty clear that he recognizes that they don't work as well and thus require different/better technique and effort!
post #84 of 360
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattchuck2
That's actually Pretty Interesting. Are Straight Skis better as all terrain boards? Or is it just that now skis are so specialized (with regard to width, sidecut, etc.) we have become spoiled?

I too have skied both Shaped and Straight skis. I have to say, though, the last time I skied straight skis was the winter before I got shaped skis. I haven't picked them up once since then. So I agree, shaped skis are better.

However, I would not disparage straight ski skiers bye saying "You're technique must be poor, that's why you don't like shaped skis." That's simply not true. Some people just prefer the feel of straight skis. I don't even know if Glen Plake has switched yet. Say what you want about that guy's technique, but he's skied lines that I've only had nightmares about. Sure, HeluvaSkier, you could probably turn circles around him on groomed terrain, and hold your own in the bumps, but are you really going to tell me that his technique is not up to par? When you say:



Are you thinking about people like Glen Plake? Or are you just making a generalization about the "average skier?"

The fact is, yes, shaped skis allow me to tighten up my turning radius in ways that were never possible on straight skis. And turning skis by simply tipping them is a boon to novices and experts alike. But there are still some old hardcores out there (pro mogul skiers, old skiing Icons, etc.) that are just fine with straight skis thank you very much.
Mattchuck2 you summed up my point. I was never trying to compare ability to type of ski but the thread got highjacked that way by people saying if you don't like shaped skis you don't know how to ski. I ski both just fine thankyou and use different technics for each I like the old technic which doesn't mean I don't have the ability to ski shaped skis.

Oh well I'll enjoy my skiing this week on both my straight and shaped but I'll be on my straight more than my shaped.

Ciao
post #85 of 360
Yeah, I know.

Thanks, guys, for pointing out that Glen Plake is good.

I'm just saying, it's his choice to ski on shaped skis, and he chooses to. Same with mogul junkies on the World Cup. But when you say something like:

Quote:
Straight skis were/are limited. I can ski circles around (literally) anyone using them
- HeluvaSkier

Then I have to call you out. I wasn't saying that you're not better than most people skiing straight skis. I'm just saying that people use them because they like them. And it's not always some idiot in Jeans.
post #86 of 360
Twinsdad+1, what you may be missing here is that a lot of us have gone through a dramatic transition of technique from straight to shaped skis. One of these days, I'm going to start a thread about my oddysey, but suffice for now that I have completely rebuilt it. I was a very strong skier (and also an ex-racer) on straight skis. When I first started skiing shaped, I thought that they were fun and less work, but that was about it. However, after two plus seasons of high-level coaching, I am a completely different skier. The technique that I used to use on my straight skis has been replaced completely by a modern, efficient approach. Every once in a while I try to dial-up the old, but now it just feels silly to me: why would I want to work that hard?

I'm still playing with the changes, working on areas of skill, and so on.

What I have seen, though, now that I have learned more about observing what other skiers are doing is that skiers coming from straight skis who have not had specific coaching on modern technique are easily identifiable from their technique on-snow. They universally think that they are using the new skis well, that they feel the carve, and so on. But, equally universally, they aren't and they don't really.

That's the reason that you've seen the response that you have. Perhaps you are one of those who has made the transition and can go back and forth between very different techniques easily. That's a rare skill, and I applaud you for it, if so. For me--and many others--the habits are too difficult to break to move back and forth like that.

On the other hand, you may be a skier like I was (and still am, at times!): you may not be doing what you think you are doing. "Feel" is a difficult measure and objectivity is hard to come by on the ski hill.

Trust me when I tell you that the posters in this thread really want the best for all (including you). They don't really mean to offend unless they think it might help break through preconceptions. I find that when I'm open to being wrong, I have the greatest opportunity for learning. FWIW.
post #87 of 360
And I want to see what HeluvaSkier is talking about. He talks a pretty big game for someone skiing out of Buffalo . I'm going to be at Holiday Valley next week, buddy, you want to meet up? Should I bring my 205 cm Dynastar G9's or my new Fischer RX8's?
post #88 of 360
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattchuck2
I'm just saying that people use them because they like them.
...and my post was intended to say that this is not why Plake uses them. He uses them because they are way more difficult to ski than shaped skis and so they force him to work harder. Same reason he ripped bumps on DH boards back in the day.

BTW, the WC bumpers who were training at Copper this year were not on straights, either.
post #89 of 360
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattchuck2
And I want to see what HeluvaSkier is talking about. He talks a pretty big game for someone skiing out of Buffalo . I'm going to be at Holiday Valley next week, buddy, you want to meet up? Should I bring my 205 cm Dynastar G9's or my new Fischer RX8's?
Take a camera. Post the pictures. But, also post your honest assessment.
post #90 of 360
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattchuck2
And I want to see what HeluvaSkier is talking about. He talks a pretty big game for someone skiing out of Buffalo . I'm going to be at Holiday Valley next week, buddy, you want to meet up? Should I bring my 205 cm Dynastar G9's or my new Fischer RX8's?
save the swordfights for the Castro District bathhouses, chumley.
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