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# How to teach transition??? - Page 2

Quote:
 Originally Posted by RiDeC58 This link seems to be broken. Anyone else have a problem getting there?
Try this one:

http://www.edgechange.com/
I brought this up a couple of years back in a different context. It was good and contentious then so no reason not to throw it out there again. Jane'sdad touches on it as well.

I agree with the transition being all important and in a general sport definition would be the 'critical instant'. Problem is skiing is usually broken into turns and turns broken into segments which causes a break (in perception) right at this 'critical instant'.

Try thinking of 1 turn starting when the skis are in the falline and continuing until the skis are in the falline again. Last time someone made the analogy of changing lanes in a car. It is two moves but often refered to as one turn.

Visulizing this way can help focus on the flow between turns or transition. I'm not sure if the links here already cover some of this but at any rate it's food for thought.
Exactly, L7. Transition starts in the fall-line.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by nolo Exactly, L7. Transition starts in the fall-line.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by nolo Exactly, L7. Transition starts in the fall-line.
What, with planning for the next turn? Transition ends with the application of new edges, does it not?.

I don't get the fall line-to-fall line idea. You can't stop in the fall line. You can call it an "out of the box" way of looking at turns, but in the real world, turns have to have a start and an end, and you just can't quit turning and stop when you're in the fall line.
Quote:
 Try thinking of 1 turn starting when the skis are in the falline and continuing until the skis are in the falline again.
If you mean '..continuing until your cm and skis are in the same relative position in the fall line again (ie hard left rudder to hard left rudder = 1 turn sequence) I am tracking with you.

Without spending too much time describing it, I think;
Left-Crossover-Right-Crossover equals 1 movement group that brings you back to the beginning. I repeat this endlessly instead of thinking of it as two movements, one left, one right. Just a perception thing. The arc described by a sine wave is endlessly repeating but defined by half it's period - I want to think of the whole wave, not half at a time. By not breaking it in half I can transition without hesitation.
Kneale,
Fall line to fall line is just a convenient way to describe the ongoing transition from one set of edges to the other. Most people perform a series of disconnected turns when they think Start, Middle, and End. Flow and linkage are inter-related and it starts with realizing that there is no such thing as a single turn. Starting at the top of the run, and ending at the bottom are concepts we seem to forget. Even if you stop halfway down you still need to get to the bottom of the hill before that run is "finished".
Sorry to disappoint you, Rick. With jasp, I'm thinking of linking turns fall line to fall line, apex to apex. Until you can do that, you aren't going to have a smooth, flowing transition.
Nolo, I skied today, and for part of the time I was working on a variety of transitions. And by transition I don't mean the falline, I mean the period in which you stop turning right and start turning left, of vise versa.

I did outside leg relaxation, inside leg extension, weighted release new outside ski in air, weighted release new outside ski on snow, waist steers, equal weighted two footed rolls, diverging steps, retractions, pivots, stivots, slow rolls, fast rolls.

I just have a big problem with the philosophy that transition skills can be expanded and refined by not focusing on them. A real big problem.
yeah - one of my instructors went through a stage of fall-line to fall-line.....

i notice that the last few yearsor so he gave it up....
I can see thinking of skiing from fall line to fall line, but I can't see how you can discuss transitions between turns in that context when you're not changing edges in the fall line. I agree that the fall line-to-fall line consideration assists in grasping the concept of flow, but the real physical flow has to occur at neutral.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by justanotherskipro Kneale, Fall line to fall line is just a convenient way to describe the ongoing transition from one set of edges to the other. Most people perform a series of disconnected turns when they think Start, Middle, and End. Flow and linkage are inter-related and it starts with realizing that there is no such thing as a single turn. Starting at the top of the run, and ending at the bottom are concepts we seem to forget. Even if you stop halfway down you still need to get to the bottom of the hill before that run is "finished".
You're not talking in terms of flow between a pair of turns with this approach, you're talking about all the turns in a run. Visualizing fall line-to-fall line can help with the concept that the transition from one set of edges to the other set is something that involves ongoing actions, but it can't really describe the action process. You simply cannot have flow if you don't flow through the transition.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Rick Nolo, I skied today, and for part of the time I was working on a variety of transitions. And by transition I don't mean the falline, I mean the period in which you stop turning right and start turning left, of vise versa. I did outside leg relaxation, inside leg extension, weighted release new outside ski in air, weighted release new outside ski on snow, waist steers, equal weighted two footed rolls, diverging steps, retractions, pivots, stivots, slow rolls, fast rolls. I just have a big problem with the philosophy that transition skills can be expanded and refined by not focusing on them. A real big problem.
I Think of it this way Rick. In a "modern reaching turn" the skier will be longest in the apex through the falline. From here, the movements that got us long will reverse, to the traditional view of transition, as being shortest at the end of one and the beggining of the next. If I View turns as movement patterns, then falline to falline can make as much sense as traditional transition to transition. the movement patterns do change and reverse in the falline, just as they do between turns.

Also what does get longest at one point will start getting shorter, flexing from this point, slowly managing pressure to the point of release. Falline to falline turns to me are just focusing on the cycle from the longest point instead of from the shortest point of the skiers body. It is to encourage a more modern reaching turn, where the skier is long and strong through the apex of turn. I personaly like the idea and as I understand and feel it more, the idea or concept grows even stronger for me.

i remember 4-5 five years ago trying to get across to a group of students I had that we can and should move/time our extention/flexion to different areas of the turn. If I had had a firm grasp of the falline to falline concept then I think I could have communicated it better and gotten better results. For some it might be easier to change timing, for others it might be easier to change definition of when the turn begins. Sorry to jump into the midlle of this thread. Later, RicB.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Kneale Brownson You're not talking in terms of flow between a pair of turns with this approach, you're talking about all the turns in a run. Visualizing fall line-to-fall line can help with the concept that the transition from one set of edges to the other set is something that involves ongoing actions, but it can't really describe the action process. You simply cannot have flow if you don't flow through the transition.
Well, you can't have flow through neutral if you don't have flow from the falline to neutral either. I think it just the yin and yang of it all, and you can't recognize one wihtout recognizing the other. later, RicB.

### Transition

First post. Came across this ski forum last year and it's my favorite by far.

Anyway, transition. Here are the thoughts that help me:
1) Rotate pelvis under you (as with a thrust) and keep pelvis over your feet. (This keeps you out of the 'back seat' and promotes use of skeleton to support weight rather than your quads and back muscles).
2) Collapse/relax the downhill/stance leg (this releases the edge).
3) Bring the uphill ski back underneath your hip (prepares it take the brunt of your weight)
4) Allow your upper body (or CM) to 'free-fall' towards the fall line. (This sets up your new inside edge and positions your CM between your new downhill/stance foot and the center of the new arc you'll carve)
5) Be patient while the new downhill edge takes hold.
6) Repeat!

Items 2,3, and 4 basically all happen together. Item 1 is a general thought and is maintained outside of transition too.

Your thoughts and results may vary!

Was out on the slopes yesterday for the first time this season with my 11 year-old daughter... magic.

Jim
I agree with RicB. The essence of flow is continuity of movement through a series of turns. Fall line to fall line can get a student thinking differently about skiing, which is the first step in changing how a student skis. Aren't we trying to help students shape turns, rather than a series of Z traverses? By focusing attention on the middle of the turn rather than the end of the turn, I am discussing the process of transitioning, not a moment of transition.

I like what Rob and Eric DesLauriers say in Ski the Whole Mountain:
Quote:
 From this point forward we will describe good skiing in terms of linking your turns from fall line to fall line. We won't talk about one turn at a time. The real magic of good skiing is in the transition from one turn to the next. Good skiing results when you link your turns. For many skiers, this will be a shift in focus, but it is critically important. To ski well it is absolutely key to focus on the completion of one turn, through the transition between turns, to the engagement of the skis in the next turn. Carve, release, transition, engage, carve--from the fall line of one turn to the fall line of the next.
This one stirred it up again, sweet. Sure it's an 'out of the box' type thing but whenever you hit a block isn't thinking 'out of the box' what is most likely to get you through it?

Someone said they had an instructor who focused on it for awhile but seems to have given it up. That doesn't mean it didn't help him or teach him something. I don't think falline to falline is the only way to think of a turn but then I don't think transition to transition is the only way either. Both ways have benefits and both ways have drawbacks. Using both at appropriate times can help achieve different things.

I believe thinking falline to falline helps you focus on transition by not breaking it up at that 'critical instant', someone seemed to say they thought it would cause the opposite effect.

Someone else said that skiing is never '1 turn' but always a series of turns and a flow down the hill. That being true then why would you always percieve the skiing in one way with a turn always ending/stating at the same given spot. That perception will impact the physical ability to perform at that point. A new perception may just shed some new light on a critical point and have no negative impact on the actual act of linking many turns and flowing down the hill.

Again I liked the analogy from last go at this of changing lanes in a car. Does anyone actually think of it as making one turn and then making another turn? Doesn't that seem like it would make a relatively simple task more complicated? I think people tend to think of it as one move and that helps you to complete the task smoothly and with flow.

Nolo's quote from the deslauiers sums it up nicely as well.
You start telling students that max edge angle happens at the falline, and that reduction of that max edge angle begins at that singular point, and you plant the seed for the creation of a single turn shape repertoire. The beginning of edge reduction from max edge angle is dependant on how much across the falline a turn is taken. The more complete the turn, the further past the falline max edge angle is held. Focus on the transition, that being the clean roll from max edge angle to new edge initiation, and a smooth transition can be learned and incorporated into any turn shape.

The key element is how we move to and through neutral. There are many ways to do this, and the broader the methodologies one has to make that transtion, the more able one is to execute a smooth transition in various tactical, and state of balance, situations.

Focus on specific and proper transition execution skills, and the placement and timing of that execution, dependant on turn shape, will take care of itself. Focusing on the gross extremities of that execution (the surrounding fallines) may provide a patch for major flow problems, but it removes focus on the more crucially important elements of the fine points of the movement process through neutral and into the start of the new turn.

Eventually, if you really want to teach a consistently well executed and ultra clean transitions, you're going to have to shift focus back to broadening and refining the edge change transition skills. Why waste time with quick trick fixes that just somewhat mask the real skill deficiencies, when you can go to meat of the problem right off the bat, and foster some really significant skill enhancements?

Wait, I think I know the answer. One hour lessons, where you'll never see the student again. The land of duct taped, quick fix patch jobs.
Given that there are many different ways to make a transistion, how do you choose a particular transistion for a given turn?
Quote:
 Focus on the transition, that being the clean roll from max edge angle to new edge initiation, and a smooth transition can be learned and incorporated into any turn shape.
Rick, we're just changing the reference point for turn transitions from the traverse to the fall line, and asking for transitional movements (reversing the directional flow of movements) to begin earlier in the previous turn and to occur progressively through the middle of the S.

(I don't do one hour privates.)

### fall line to fall line. ugh.

You're not going to fix problems in transition by ignoring that the transition exists. The notion that one can just think about turns in a different way and make problems vanish is wrong.

Fall line to fall line makes one think about two positions in the turn. It does not address how to get there -- it relies on the students athleticism to get there. And suppose for a minute that the student's transition DID improve. Do you think they'd know why? Rewarding the successes of unconscious competence is no solution.

It's not a fix if they don't know what happened.

### What changed your mind, E?

I know we've hashed and rehashed this subject in the past. A thread I recalled was: http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=22580&page=2&highlight=fall+line+ transition

Quote:
 fluid turns obviously require fluidity which is why I made the joke earlier. If there is one place in a turn that level 7 & 8 skiers need to focus on it is this edge change transition fluidity so why talk about ENDING something and STARTING something else? Why not visualize one fluid movement of the feet and cm to the fall line then do it again? It is just easier for me to think of it this way and to imagine the sensations I am reaching for. When my legs are extended as I am rounding the fall line I am the most relaxed. It's a way of saying finish a TRANSITION and begin a new one! This works for me I notice that the majority of level 7 and 8's do not have problems with their turns during the fall line phase (2 o'clock to 4 o'clock) Hmmm? what needs work? and should we think or tell our students to stop in the middle of that work then start again??.... Historically instructors have thought this way (starting and ending each turn across the hill) and dating back to the era of wooden skis and long thongs, where each turn ended in a traverse, it was very viable. We don't create platforms to step off of anymore, we release edges and reengage edges. Today it seems dated and creates a psychological impedement to fluid transitions. These fluid transitions are what separate intermeadiate skiers from expert skiers and should be thought of more holistically than segmented in my humble opinion.
Quote:
 Quote: Originally Posted by bud heishmanIt's a way of saying finish a TRANSITION and begin a new one! This works for me That's getting filed for future use....thank you!
I'm not saying anything different than when we talked about it last year. Perhaps for clarity I might have said that I consider this teaching topic a Level 7/8 topic, not a Level 5/6 topic.
Thank you, Rick and BigE.

The original post in this thread asked how you teach transitions. You can't teach transitions talking about what goes on while the skis are not transitioning.

The rest is philosophical hooey.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by RicB Well, you can't have flow through neutral if you don't have flow from the falline to neutral either. I think it just the yin and yang of it all, and you can't recognize one wihtout recognizing the other. later, RicB.
Once most skiers good enough to be interested in transition as a topic of consideration are on edge and in the fall line, they pretty much are capable of getting to the end of the turn. The problem is going from that end through neutral to the beginning of the next with smooth, relaxed realignment of things.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by nolo I like what Rob and Eric DesLauriers say in Ski the Whole Mountain:

Don't the DesLauriers pretty much distinguish between what goes on in the fall line and where transitions occur? I've made the parts I notice bold for example in the quote you provided.

"From this point forward we will describe good skiing in terms of linking your turns from fall line to fall line. We won't talk about one turn at a time. The real magic of good skiing is in the transition from one turn to the next. Good skiing results when you link your turns. For many skiers, this will be a shift in focus, but it is critically important. To ski well it is absolutely key to focus on the completion of one turn, through the transition between turns, to the engagement of the skis in the next turn. Carve, release, transition, engage, carve--from the fall line of one turn to the fall line of the next."

They don't describe any transitioning IN the fall line.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by nolo I consider this teaching topic a Level 7/8 topic, not a Level 5/6 topic.
I work to get new open-stance parallel students standing equally on both skis flat on whatever slope we're on so we can roll onto new edges. I aim for this goal when I teach gliding wedge turns. I frequently get spontaneous open stance parallels out of level 3 students during a two-hour lesson. If I get to work with them each day for a week, they're often able to move smoothly from one set of edges to the other in round turns on easy blues.
Nolo,

I liked the notion of "finishing the transition" -- which I use to mean allow the body to move over and inside once you've started the transition (released). Do not let the CM stop at neutral, where folks tend to stand up, wait and lose the effect of inertia. It's especially effective when the going gets steeper.

My preference is to progress from neutral, throuh initiation and finally triggered with release. This allows me to say 'finish the transition' -- move from one turn to the next. But I do NOT change the frame of reference of when a turn starts/stops.

There's just too much going on that is already a cause for confusion in the student.

The student wants to be told what to do to so they can ski better. Filling their head with odd frames of reference will cause a whole slew of problems. The least of which is confusion the worst is analysis paralysis.

I guarantee that if the student leaves a lesson confused, they'll be unhappy and they won't be back. If they get paralyzed, they could even quit.
The box is nice, there is comfort in the box.....stay in the box.

Nobody is saying this is a magic fix and I'm not sure why it would need to be implied it is a 1 hour private never see them again inferior effort. It is simply a way to think of things that may HELP achieve a new feeling in the critical point of transition of the edges. It is not actually reinventing the wheel but it can help people with new feelings just as any other exercise can. At best it is reworking some of the language and quite possibly in a beneficial or at least less detrimental way.

Don't like it, don't use it but not even accepting that it MAY assist and then not trying it isn't exactly giving the possibility a fair chance. Giving those dang shape ski thingies a chance worked out ok for most of you didn't it?
Kneale, I said transition starts in the fall line, I didn't say transition happens in the fall line. I think you misunderstand what I am trying to say.

BigE, I didn't say the fall line was a reference point for the turn starting or stopping, I said it was:
Quote:
 changing the reference point for turn transitions from the traverse to the fall line, and asking for transitional movements (reversing the directional flow of movements) to begin earlier in the previous turn and to occur progressively through the middle of the S.
It's not about "thinking outside the box". Focussing on fall-line to fall-line turns is about NOT teaching transition, and hoping that your student does it right so they can feel it and figure it out by themselves.

BTW: I did try it. What a huge mistake: slack jawed stares, and "So, what is it you want me to do exactly?"

Get a video of them skiing. They'll benefit more from that than any sort of mental mumbo jumbo.
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