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opinion about breaking rule and riding closed trail - Page 2

post #31 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinF
If somebody follows me under a rope, and they get hurt, I can safely say I wouldn't feel at all responsible for their problems. They still made an independent conscious decision to do something that the mountain's safety personnel didn't want them doing. If I do it, I do it at my own risk.
Do you feel any responsibility if you trigger an avalanche or if your rescue puts people at risk?
post #32 of 220
No int he East you can still get lost and that is a fact. People ahve been lost in the woods for days at Kilington and luckily made it out alive. Jay Peak etc.
Why don't more Easterner's comment on this?
post #33 of 220
I like Whistler's poiicy.

They put runs that aren't ready (not enough snow, hazards etc) out of bounds. Meaning you can ski them, no penalty, but there is no patrol and any consequences are on your own head.

If something is marked closed there it is for a good reason, usually the possibility of knocking off a slide onto an open trail below.
post #34 of 220
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by skieast
I like Whistler's poiicy.

They put runs that aren't ready (not enough snow, hazards etc) out of bounds. Meaning you can ski them, no penalty, but there is no patrol and any consequences are on your own head.
finally a resort with balls, i hate seeing the skier code things posted everywhere because some of the rules in it are otal bulls*#t to me.

sorry for my attitued i am just pissed off because i have to file a chargeback with my cc company because this gay seller on ebay wouldnt ship item sux for him... chargebacks make u refund full payment +10$ so he has to pay another 10$!!!
post #35 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by jstraw
Do you feel any responsibility if you trigger an avalanche or if your rescue puts people at risk?
As I said in my first post on this subject, I live in the East where the avalanche probability is zilch. I don't know any Western mountain anywhere nearly well enough to ever dream of ducking a rope there.

Secondly, I would not expect any sort of rescue operation. You duck a rope, you are on your own. Get yourself out. If you don't think you can, then don't go in. As the signs at Killington say "the woods will be as cold and lonely tonight as they were 200 years ago".
post #36 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinF
Secondly, I would not expect any sort of rescue operation. You duck a rope, you are on your own. Get yourself out. If you don't think you can, then don't go in. As the signs at Killington say "the woods will be as cold and lonely tonight as they were 200 years ago".
Your willingness to not expect a rescue is not really the point. If you go missing, other people *will* be out in the elements looking for you.
post #37 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by jstraw
Your willingness to not expect a rescue is not really the point. If you go missing, other people *will* be out in the elements looking for you.
And *if* he goes missing, his family/friends (assuming...) will be the ones DEMANDING that someone go out in the elements looking for him.
post #38 of 220
This little incident is circulating on TGR right now. Seems apropos:

Was wondering why the KIRO7 news van was at the Pass last night. Thought it was about road conditions.

Seriously, WTF are people thinking these days? I can't believe how many people are ducking the ropes at Alpe this year. If anyone ventured out into the adjacent BC, you would notice large terrain traps, creek beds about 7 feet down- not totally filled in yet, and lots and lots of potentially dangerous cliff bands and other areas that don't have ample snowpack.

People are constantly ducking ropes into Snake Dance, Felsen, and Adrenaline - all which have a lot of hollow snow pack, holes, etc... There's a reason why Patrol has some of these areas roped off.

But I can't speak for this guy. Sad story, and I'm sure there's always more to it than what's reported.

Sorry to rant about the closures in general- I don't know the guy so maybe I'm off base- but with so many people ducking ropes right now- it only further jeopordizes future access in this day & age of litigation in US.

Here's hoping for a healthy recovery to injured snowboarder. Anyone have an update?

SNOQUALMIE PASS, Wash. -- A local snowboarder is being treated at Harborview medical center this morning.

He survived a 300-foot fall down a rocky cliff at Alpental ski area.

Authorities say the 21 year old snowboarder went off the trail--past barriers and warning signs yesterday.

He then fell off a ledge higher than a 20-story building.

He was found unconscious, but the ski patrol gave him CPR.. reviving him.

Rescuers say he went over International Cliff, an area that is permanently out of bounds.

There are a lot of orange ropes, danger, cliff, closed...that funnel you into the safe ways down, because there's only really two ways you can, go, " said Debby Riehl with the Ski Patrol.

Members of the ski patrol told us they're amazed the snowboarder survived such a fall.
post #39 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maineac
Ok, I agree it is not ok to duck a rope, but here is my story. Myself and 3 other friends about age 16 were at Squaw Mountain In Greenville, Maine when they were running the lift one night because of freezing rain. So the four of us each got one of those plastic boat sleds and hoped on. Well the lifties saw us and took off after us up the hill in a Cat. We barely beat them to mid-station where we promptly peeled down the trail next to the lift. We flew down that trail which had a slick surface with the rain. One of my most memorable runs ever.
St Anton has that toboggan trail that is nice and slick up top, then gets all choppy below the bar(brilliant!) We didn't like going slow so we took the shortcut down the piste...which was not roped off...we got chased by the cat...the next day we saw the visual-aids warning about winch cables where the skier gets decapitated. I don't sled down black runs in the dark after a night of drinking anymore...
post #40 of 220
Just had to chime in. I skiied in the East all my life, and most of it is at a very, very small hill where I was an instructor there. I've ducked plenty of ropes at that place, for a couple of reasons:
1) It was, and still is, a family first place, meaning that unless conditions were perfect for the very lowliest of beginners, they would close the trail. Not talking about big gnarly rocks or chutes or anything there, just a slope that was almost permanently out of bounds because the resort just didn't care to open it.
2) I knew my way around the woods, and even then, the trails wich were roped off were 100feet at best from condos and houses at the bottom.
3) This is important folks: never duck a rope alone. Never. If you break a leg, have at least a buddy to go get help. I know this will infuriate many here, but seriously, when you pay 50$ for a day ticket, you expect the patrollers to be able to go get your sorry ass anywhere on a smallish the mountain (not even 800 feet vert here).
post #41 of 220
I'll back up what most everyone else has said.....
Trails are roped off for a reason!

In spring of '02, 2 friends and I decided to duck the rope on Whistler peak. If you look at the Whistler trail map and see where West Bowl funnels into Dusty's Descent, you'll see EXACTLY where I'm talking about. At the time, the funneled area was roped off because that part of the mountain was still being logged for trails. But boy did it look sweet from the top!

Anyhow, after skiing a little while, we noticed that the trail was becoming not so much of a trail anymore...littered with treestumps that were becoming harder and harder to avoid. One of my friends was on her snowboard and as you can imagine, had a hell of a hard time. Eventually we couldn't ski anymore, as the "trail" had become nothing but fallen trees, mud, and construction equipment. We took off our gear and hoofed it until we could find someone who could operate the backhoes. We had to beg for a ride down to the street from one of the construction guys, who was not too happy to have 3 stupid chicks trespassing in his work zone.

Although I sometimes look back and laugh, it was REALLY stupid for us to do that and we're lucky that getting lost was the worst that happened to us.......
post #42 of 220
As a former Patroller youall know how I feel about this question. We've beat this question to death at least five or six times in the past five years. The question still is asked and the answer is always the same. There can be no other answer.

No matter what your arguement is. There is no justification for skiing a closed area or trail. Only bad things can come from it. Lost lift pass, injury or death. East or West it doesn't matter. A closed trail is a closed trail.
post #43 of 220
a coupel years ago at liberty (small mt in pa) after a bunch of snow fell, iat the end of the day a few of us decided to use the 4x4 trail on the frontside to get down, which lead a little off to the left as your goin down, so we neared the bottom and hiked through soem trees ontot he general trail and skiied a few hundred yards to the bottom.. again supre small mt in the east and i know the mountain like the back of my own hand
post #44 of 220
I'm with Bob and dchan - and other like minded folks on this one. The correct answer is a simple one.

Don't like how patrol at a particular resort manages closures? Go somewhere else. Otherwise, how about not putting others at risk & potentially screwing things up for everyone else? In other words, don't be a selfish ass.

Here's a link to the thread at TGR on the latest idiot stunt at Alpental...

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=41913

BTW - I think everyone sympathizes with the urge to duck a rope now and again. Just a bad idea though...
post #45 of 220

Bugs Me

I'm from the East and I really do believe that there is a difference. In the East you have mountains that allow woods skiing any where you want to go. Then others close trails because the patrol is so lazy they can't perform sweeps on trails that are wide open - ridiculous. They will close a trail and say #u@k you to the paying customer (me). It causes contempt for safety.

I duck fewer and fewer ropes only because I don't need the hassel of a clipped ticket. But I would if I felt it was safe and could get a way with it. That's how I feel about it. I made some stupid calls, but sometimes its like the mountain is expecting a visit from a congressman or some bull$#it dignatary. It pisses me off - can you tell.

Out west I learned that it's more dangerous to poach. But it would be tempting none the less.

Every time we talk about this people get too self-rightous. If you don't want to do it then don't do it.
post #46 of 220
Jeffr:

If you work at resort, I am amazed that you would even consider ducking a rope. The place I used to work for would fire you on the spot if you were caught ducking a rope.

Powdr
post #47 of 220

At Jiminy

A guy was poaching at night on his snowmobile. He was crusing up and down the steepest trails. He came over a swale going fast and slamed (landed on) into the cat that was grooming. The cat had the winch attached and it was real dangerous. He got in a lot of trouble and his snowmobile needed a lot of repair!

I never did anything that bad. But who knows, if there was powder?
post #48 of 220

Not enforced

I agree toatlly -- poaching is just not how it should be done.

But I want to add one thing to this thread -- if patrol won't enforce, how the hell do they expect people will abide??! Any given powder day at the canyons you see countless tracks snaking through the lines -- some not 30' from the patrol shack! Here I am watching all of these miscreants get the goodies and me, law-abiding citizen, waiting for a gate to drop so I can ski something that is already completly tracked up?

Meanwhile, not that anyone should be there anyway, but completly clueless destination skiers end up follwing the tracks through these lines and find themselves god knows where. Last week saw a hapless crew head off through the trees below lift-service -- nice long hike ahead of them.

Resorts claim zero-tolerance but I haven't seen it, at least not at my resort. Is it as out-of-hand as this elsewhere?
post #49 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by freeskinow
A guy was poaching at night on his snowmobile. He was crusing up and down the steepest trails. He came over a swale going fast and slamed (landed on) into the cat that was grooming. The cat had the winch attached and it was real dangerous. He got in a lot of trouble and his snowmobile need a lot of repair!

I never did anything that bad. But who knows, if there was powder?
Something like this happened at an area I worked at...A guy on a snowmobile never saw the rope that closed a trail, and there is no chance he'll ever see it...It took his head off clean.
post #50 of 220
An english skier seriously wounded yesterday in tignes
http://www.pistehors.com/comments/519_0_1_0_C/
His brother triggered a slide on him.
And there's no snow ! The snow base is below average for that time of the year. By every account a lot of off piste runs are skied on rocks.
Avy hazard was 3/5, a level that doesn't impress anyone nowadays.
Ignore warnings at your own risk.
post #51 of 220
I ski primarily in the east, and I really have no problem with ducking a rope if it is at an area I know well. This is something I would never dream of doing out west. The dangers are just far far less in the east - no risk of avy, really no risk of getting lost on a trail (those who get lost are the ones who venture into the woods) - your real risk is hitting something and getting hurt so that you couldn't make you way down. I know the dangers and risks (both of injury and loss of my pass) going in and accept them if chose to ignore the sign.

Where I ski the reasoning tends to always be to get some fresh powder- many resorts groom the entire mountain when it snows.

I'll also add I always carry a radio and ski with friends, so if something terrible did happen it wouldn't be to tough to find me (or one of them). I wouldn't do it if I was alone or someone did not know my whereabouts.
post #52 of 220

Guilty

About a week ago we had a foot of powder, rare. The mountain had groomed and had done a poor job. There were death cookies 3ft thick. They had blown snow on other trails that were not yet open. No grooming had taken place. Sections of the trail had real thin cover and other areas required caution. I could understand why it was closed.

But there I stood hand on the rope looking down a trail that I knew would have been fantastic. Morality (my pass) prevailed and I slid away. I haven't slept well since.
post #53 of 220
In the east I take this on a mountain by mountain basis. For example, Jay had 4 feet of snow a few weeks ago, and 7 runs open. I am sure all of you would have poached those days. Reasons are obvious and the terrain is closed more for fiscal reasons than snow reasons. Mad River their terrain is pretty crazy I will not duck ropes their and respect their decisions. Magic however we had a long discussion with them sunday regarding closed terrain. At Magic despite their being ropes up here and their nothing is ever closed. They said thier mountain is privately insured and noone cares including the patrol. Parts of redline looked like Alta Zero and it was open as an example.

Out west the dangers are myriad and I am not experienced enough in the backcountry to take them on so I dont mess around at those hills. If its closed then I figure I prefer to live I wont ski it.

Alfonse
post #54 of 220

Ropes

I agree, no need to duck ropes at Mad River Glen for me. They let you ski where you want anyway. I have skied there plenty of times when I would have closed the mt. When conditions are bad at MRG you can get hurt.

The only part that frustrates me at MRG is the rocks and cliffs near and around the lift. It is so rare that you get to hop a ledge there, but I do understand. It would only be a matter of time before someone got banged up.
post #55 of 220
Both ledges were open last year in late feb-early march.
post #56 of 220
You could poach and listen to the song, "Breakin the law Breakin the law" on your ipod

Just be careful because the next song may be, "I fought the law and the law won, I fought the law and the law won"
post #57 of 220

I saw

I got scared!
post #58 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILOVE2SKI
No int he East you can still get lost and that is a fact. People ahve been lost in the woods for days at Kilington and luckily made it out alive. Jay Peak etc.
Why don't more Easterner's comment on this?
Hahah this is funny. You do realize that when people ski off the backside near the glades(Same place it always happens) that if they have a cellphone or radio the patrol will try and make them walk out unless its dangerously cold. Killington is surrounded by roads, you are not lost there just lazy. A dowhill slog through some trees at night in the snow may seem hard but 10 grand for a rescue will haunt you for much longer:
post #59 of 220
Lodro, the Canyons is a really unique situation. I cannot think of any other place that has such tempting terrain and snow right next to the lift, with an obvious path....shown on the ski area map...that leads back to the lift. While the hazards in Dutchs are well known to locals, tourists have not got a clue. Also, the warnings are only posted at the gate which is uphill from the lift. The fences and ropes next to the 9990 lift simply say closed area. The reality is, it appears that you can duck that rope and ski legendary Utah powder goodness without consequences. Considering the number of tracks, many do. Once or twice a year, someone gets caught by or triggers a slide, and the Sheriff has his media moment talking about their "criminal" act.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodro
I agree toatlly -- poaching is just not how it should be done.

But I want to add one thing to this thread -- if patrol won't enforce, how the hell do they expect people will abide??! Any given powder day at the canyons you see countless tracks snaking through the lines -- some not 30' from the patrol shack! Here I am watching all of these miscreants get the goodies and me, law-abiding citizen, waiting for a gate to drop so I can ski something that is already completly tracked up?

Meanwhile, not that anyone should be there anyway, but completly clueless destination skiers end up follwing the tracks through these lines and find themselves god knows where. Last week saw a hapless crew head off through the trees below lift-service -- nice long hike ahead of them.

Resorts claim zero-tolerance but I haven't seen it, at least not at my resort. Is it as out-of-hand as this elsewhere?
post #60 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodro
I agree toatlly -- poaching is just not how it should be done.

But I want to add one thing to this thread -- if patrol won't enforce, how the hell do they expect people will abide??! Any given powder day at the canyons you see countless tracks snaking through the lines -- some not 30' from the patrol shack! Here I am watching all of these miscreants get the goodies and me, law-abiding citizen, waiting for a gate to drop so I can ski something that is already completly tracked up?
Most likely ski patrol tracks getting in some freshies and testing the snow pack/trail conditions.
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