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opinion about breaking rule and riding closed trail - Page 7

post #181 of 220

OK Bob

Mine does say that and I actually had to sign the thing. But then on opening day they forgot to drop the ropes. The masses ducked and skied! So did the patrollers. No one was arrested and it was fun.

Bob, the East really is different from the West re: this issue. It is different Northern Vermont to Southern Vermont. There is little doubt that ducking the ropes is wrong, but sometimes it seems like a minor wrong. It's just no big deal. Many of the issues about safety and burdening other peoples lives just doesn't really fit the East (generally speaking).

I don't want to promote rope ducking, but it's just a fact - people do it.

Last year I was with a guy and we were headed for a closed trail. He stopped, had to turn his jacket inside out - he's an instructor and he is not supposed to ski closed trails in uniform.
post #182 of 220
It's intersting to hear that this issue seems to be less of a concern in the East. I'll add my story to the mix.

Early 90's I was working at Sugarbush. Early season, after our first decent snowfall, a few employees decided to ski the upper part of Organgrinder from the top before it was open. After the first pitch, it flattens out, and these guys apparently tried to straight line the flat section. One hit a submerged, unmarked (since the trail was not open yet) water bar.

A good friend was the mountain doc at the time. She had to go up with patrol to bring out the body. She said that he probably died immediately, after the compression drove his knees into his skull. The guys he was with were luckier, since they only lost their jobs. (Not to mention how much permanent effect that might have had on them.)

I'm out West now. Got a "real" job so I can pay for my pass and try to squeeze in my 20 days a year. But my feelings about ducking ropes haven't really changed. Dangers aside, I just think it's selfish. Regardless of your feelings about resort management, patrollers, liability laws, etc., it's simply a matter of following the rules. If you don't like the rules, management, patrollers, etc., you are always welcome to go somewhere else, or just hike somewhere for your turns. Once you get on the lift, I think you should abide by the "house" rules, even if you don't like them, or agree with them.

Would it be great if there were fewer ropes, less litigation, and more personal responsibility at ski areas? Of course. But until then, this is what we've got. The good news is that there is a place you can go where there are no ropes, signs, or rules. It's called the backcountry.

Ducking a rope to a closed trail to "get the goods" feels a lot to me like those who drive by on the shoulder when you're sitting in traffic. It feels like they're saying to the rest of the world, "I'm more important than you, my needs and desires are more important than yours, I know what I'm doing more than those who made the rules, and therefore the same rules don't apply to me. And if you just had the balls, you would do it too." To me, that's just feels arrogant and selfish.

Yes, I know you are aching for the fresh. So am I. Yes, I know it looks really good on the other side of the rope. But so does the other side of the highway when I'm stuck in traffic. And I don't go there, even though I'm a very good driver, and could probably get where I'm going just fine on the opposite side of the road. "Come on ... if you only had the balls, you would cross the median and drive eastbound on I-70W with me, and get home faster than the rest of those suckers sitting in traffic."

Personally, I have a lot of respect for those who respect the ropes, even if they may not necessarily understand or like the fact that they are there.

Thanks for reading. I'm sure I didn't change anyone's mind, but it felt good to express my opinion, and contribute to the discussion ...
post #183 of 220
your view is cramped and narrow.

there's nothing wrong, illegal, or "un-skier" about skiing the OB terrain.

it's called "backcountry skiing" and a lot of people do it. some do it exclusively and never buy lift passes.

for a skier who enjoys skiing backcountry, non-lift-served terrain, the IB/OB distinctions are almost irrelevant from a personal safety perspective.

and personal safety is the ONLY role that the Ski Patrol should play.
post #184 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott G
It's intersting to hear that this issue seems to be less of a concern in the East. I'll add my story to the mix.

Early 90's I was working at Sugarbush. Early season, after our first decent snowfall, a few employees decided to ski the upper part of Organgrinder from the top before it was open. After the first pitch, it flattens out, and these guys apparently tried to straight line the flat section. One hit a submerged, unmarked (since the trail was not open yet) water bar.

A good friend was the mountain doc at the time. She had to go up with patrol to bring out the body. She said that he probably died immediately, after the compression drove his knees into his skull. The guys he was with were luckier, since they only lost their jobs. (Not to mention how much permanent effect that might have had on them.)

I'm out West now. Got a "real" job so I can pay for my pass and try to squeeze in my 20 days a year. But my feelings about ducking ropes haven't really changed. Dangers aside, I just think it's selfish. Regardless of your feelings about resort management, patrollers, liability laws, etc., it's simply a matter of following the rules. If you don't like the rules, management, patrollers, etc., you are always welcome to go somewhere else, or just hike somewhere for your turns. Once you get on the lift, I think you should abide by the "house" rules, even if you don't like them, or agree with them.

Would it be great if there were fewer ropes, less litigation, and more personal responsibility at ski areas? Of course. But until then, this is what we've got. The good news is that there is a place you can go where there are no ropes, signs, or rules. It's called the backcountry.

Ducking a rope to a closed trail to "get the goods" feels a lot to me like those who drive by on the shoulder when you're sitting in traffic. It feels like they're saying to the rest of the world, "I'm more important than you, my needs and desires are more important than yours, I know what I'm doing more than those who made the rules, and therefore the same rules don't apply to me. And if you just had the balls, you would do it too." To me, that's just feels arrogant and selfish.

Yes, I know you are aching for the fresh. So am I. Yes, I know it looks really good on the other side of the rope. But so does the other side of the highway when I'm stuck in traffic. And I don't go there, even though I'm a very good driver, and could probably get where I'm going just fine on the opposite side of the road. "Come on ... if you only had the balls, you would cross the median and drive eastbound on I-70W with me, and get home faster than the rest of those suckers sitting in traffic."

Personally, I have a lot of respect for those who respect the ropes, even if they may not necessarily understand or like the fact that they are there.

Thanks for reading. I'm sure I didn't change anyone's mind, but it felt good to express my opinion, and contribute to the discussion ...
Great post!
post #185 of 220

I must say

it is well written.

I think people who defend ducking use justification as a means of making it ok. There are many reasons why it can be dangerous and serious in nature.

There have been some great points made here. Like I said earlier, it's rare these days for me to break the rules. Mainly the season pass is what holds me back. Safety is another reason. Come spring the temptation grows as does irritation at the fact trails are still closed. And then there's powder.
post #186 of 220
I don't think it's about rope ducking being "okay" or "legal"

it's more like the reasoning that went into the notion of right turn on red, eh? red lights serve their purpose if they stop traffic so that it may alternate directions periodically. but what if there's no reason to be stopping, no traffic in the opposite direction?

likewise, if you have experience skiing backcountry, you are comfortable skiing "OB" or "closed in-bounds but named secretly by The Bunion Bunch", and the formal boundary of the ski area starts to look pretty darned arbitrary.

if the ski area is trying to protect itself from me, it has nothing to worry about.

so what's up with The Bunion Bunch telling me I'm essentially a criminal and worthy of pillory in the square?
post #187 of 220
so what's up with The Bunion Bunch telling me I'm essentially a criminal and worthy of pillory in the square?

Oooh goody, a vendetta. Can we throw rotten fruit and dog $hit at you too. That would be so satisfying.
post #188 of 220
make sure that you throw sugar snack tomatoes would you please?
post #189 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzostrike
your view is cramped and narrow.

there's nothing wrong, illegal, or "un-skier" about skiing the OB terrain.

it's called "backcountry skiing" and a lot of people do it. some do it exclusively and never buy lift passes.

for a skier who enjoys skiing backcountry, non-lift-served terrain, the IB/OB distinctions are almost irrelevant from a personal safety perspective.

and personal safety is the ONLY role that the Ski Patrol should play.
This man has my vote
post #190 of 220
To all the people who don't understand why some decide to duck a rope, here's a story: at my little bump of a hill, we don't get huge snow dumps, or even big snow dumps. The max is usually 8-10" at a time, and that doesn't happen a lot. Some years, it doesn't happen at all. So powder, when it can be had, is precious, very precious.

One year, we had a HUGE dump during the night, the resort had around 20" of fresh in the morning. It was Wenesday, I got up very early, took school off and drove my car in the unsafe conditions in order to get the pow. I arrived at the mountain and there were lots of cars for a Wenesday: every regular had took the day off just to ski. Lift opens up at 8:00, I rush to my favourite trail. It is closed and a patroller stand guard. I inquire why the trail isn't open and he gives me the usual, we aren't finished checking for rocks, trees, etc. Only problem, this run was open during the weekend, why would there be rocks there now? Rocks didn't fell off the sky, snow did. I got the real answer pretty fast when three patrollers arrived, chatted a bit with the one standing guard and then proceeded to duck the rope. A lot of patrollers also did this, before opening the run at 8:30...

When they finally openend the thing, it wasn't powder anymore, it was cut up snow. Still good, but not great... Why should I get sloppy seconds? I got to the resort at the same time as these selfish a$$holes... When I complained to the resort, I was only told that ski patrol did that to ensure the safety of skiers... URGGHHHH.

Why can't I duck the rope if the patrollers are doing it? Especially when they couldn't ski their way out of a paper bag if their life depended on it (no offense to those who can actually rip it, but you are a rare breed)?

While some resorts will open as much as humanely possible and give the client their money's worth (a contract doesn't just entails the buyer, but also the seller to provide a quality product), some just let shit as this go on without blinking an eye as long as the money comes in. I wouldn't duck the rope in resort A, but resort B better have patrollers with fast planks*... I know for a fact that ski patrol gets a lot of flak from people who are fed up with resort policies, but sometimes, this flak is very, very, very well deserved. Being too lazy to put up signs to warn for obstacles and just close a trail also falls into the category of ridiculous policies. Ski patrol should make the skiers' experience more enjoyable and safer, not act as if they were above everybody else and had the absolute right to decide right from wrong. Closing a trail because you can't work a sled there, I can understand; closing a trail because there is major obstacles (snowmaking, a lot of rocks, unskiable ice), I can understand, but closing a trail because it looks to gnarly for you to ski? Weak, and we see this a LOT in the East.

*I wouldn't do this if I wasn't very familiar with the resort. Skiing a closed trail that you have never skiied before is not... well... it isn't my definition of smart. At least, do some recon.
post #191 of 220
I suppose someone has mentioned this but...Dan Treadway skied a permanently closed area at Whistler and got the boot for a year.

He regrets it.
Wouldn't you?
post #192 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott G
and these guys apparently tried to straight line the flat section. One hit a submerged, unmarked (since the trail was not open yet) water bar.
Very tragic, but this could have been prevented with some personal responsibility:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Impalabuilder
From my point of view it is just absurd to think that ducking a rope under all circumstances in the east is dangerous. Use common sense, and your knowledge of the mountain. If you don't have both of these, don't do it.
post #193 of 220

Water Bar

They can be dangerous. Often the ditch will fill in with drifted snow, so you can't see it. The down hill edge can be steep and abrupt. If you hit that with speed a problem can be had.

We were at Magic and my buddy hit one on an open trail ( you could see this one). He went flying, rolling - he was a mess but did not get hurt. It was not marked! Everyone else saw it. My buddy was luckie to not be injured.

You can get hurt skiing on closed trails. Hit a rock and tumble into a rock field, varying depth of snow, logs, and leftover stuff from projects. You just can't tell what's under the snow and how deep it is.

The only reason more people have not been hurt is that so many people obey the rules and poachers know where they are going - what to expect.
post #194 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffr
Why can't I duck the rope if the patrollers are doing it? Especially when they couldn't ski their way out of a paper bag if their life depended on it (no offense to those who can actually rip it, but you are a rare breed)?
You've said a lot of stuff that's full of insults about patrollers, but I'm only going to point out the one thing above. I don't know where you ski, but most patrollers not only can ski their way out of a paper bag as if THEIR lives depended upon it, they also have to be able to ski their way out of a paper bag as if YOUR life depended upon it--while hauling a sled with deadweight in it. Who do you think hauls people off cliffs and steeps? Who hauls people out of woods (and in the East, TIGHT woods)? Who skis the cliff areas, steeps and woods to check them for safety? Patrollers, all of whom are quite capable of "ripping it up" and are hardly a "rare breed."

Don't even get me going on the "if the patrollers can, I can" mentality. You cannot compare the rights of a paying customer of unknown skiing ability with mountain personnel whose job it is to check trails for safety, provide search and rescue, and sweep trails at the end of the day to make sure everyone's off the mountain and no one is left injured overnight.

You might be an awesome skier, I am not questioning that. But the resort cannot just assume that you are capable of skiing anything and everything on the mountain. Funny thing about patrollers, though: Not only do they have to be able to ski everything on the mountain, they also have to be able to ski (ride or telly) everything on the mountain HAULING A SLED. Yep, there are auxilliary patrollers who can't ski everything on the mountain, but they're not the ones checking that trail you want to poach, so it's a moot point. You should reconsider insulting the people you are relying upon to come to your aid if something happens to you...God forbid. Of course, they'll save you even if you are belligerent to their faces because that's the kind of people patrollers are (they will also think you have a brain injury since belligerence is a symptom : ).

Yah, maybe I'm a bit biased about patrollers because I'm married to one now, and many of my friends are patrollers too, but that wasn't always the case. And on those days when I saw patrollers getting a few jollies skiing a closed trail before opening it to the public, I thought to myself, "Lucky them! Too bad I have no interest in becoming a patroller so I can enjoy that particular perk. Oh well, poor me."

Thatsagirl
post #195 of 220

Up North

The ski patrollers are some of the best skiers on the mountain. And they can ski anything. These guys are good.

Jay, MRG, Stowe, Smuggs and even Sugarbush have guys that just don't exist in southern Vermont. When they closes trails there it's usually for a good reason. I have skied many times at MRG and Smuggs where if it were my call the whole mountain would be closed.

Thatsagirl, some of the bull $hit that management offers down this way along with incompetent patrollers, really can be frustrating. They close a perfectly fine trail only to open a vary dangerous ones.

But that doesn't really matter. If we ski a closed trail we are breaking the rules and that is self-centered behavior. I might be a little self-centered.
post #196 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by freeskinow
The ski patrollers are some of the best skiers on the mountain. And they can ski anything. These guys are good.
"good" is a relative term.

where I ski, they range from high-intermediate level to low expert level. SOME of them might qualify as SOME of the best skiers on the hill on SOME days under SOME circumstances.

but it's really overgeneral to say that as a group, "these guys" (ahem. sexist or generic?) on the Ski Patrol are "some of the best skiers on the mountain."

I know some who are great skiers. But they're not all of them so great.

and on your "closed for a reason" -- how do you apply that logic to someone who successfully skis the same terrain but OB, as a backcountry skier.

does the run "not count" because to you, the same run inbounds is closed "for a reason"?

what exactly are you saying?
post #197 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by freeskinow
The ski patrollers are some of the best skiers on the mountain. And they can ski anything. These guys are good.
And women too! Jay is pretty close to 50-50 when it comes to breakdown of male vs. female patrollers. Did you know that Jay's Patrol Director is one of two women directors in the country? Pretty neat!

Quote:
Originally Posted by freeskinow
Jay, MRG, Stowe, Smuggs and even Sugarbush have guys that just don't exist in southern Vermont. When they closes trails there it's usually for a good reason. I have skied many times at MRG and Smuggs where if it were my call the whole mountain would be closed.
I am glad you said this about closing trails for good reason. Everyone knows that Jay's patrollers aren't "cops" and will only stop someone from ducking a rope if they are right there and they just can't ignore it. But really, there is the concern that someone will get hurt on a closed trail and a) no one will know because no one's checking closed trails or b) a rescue will have to be done on a trail that's difficult to get a sled to and then down. Just the other day, someone had a nasty wreck on the roped-off and clearly marked "closed" Powerline after hitting a granite boulder. He didn't look pretty. : And patrollers had to figure out how to get to him and get him down. It took a long time to get him off the mountain. There was NOT enough snow coverage on that trail to be open, but people figured the patrol just didn't know what they were doing, roping it off. Ever walk down a trail in the summer? You'll notice there's often pretty gnarly terrain under the snow.

And last year, during that nasty icy January we had where the entire mountain was a sheet of ice, the Derek was closed because it couldn't be groomed, and someone poached it and took a slide that resulted in a head injury. I can't remember whether this was one of the people who died last year or not, there were so many terrible accidents last season during that freaky weather pattern.

Another guy impaled himself on a fat tree branch : after ducking into closed woods (really gross) and a snowboarder hung upside down from his board in a tree for several hours with a dislocated knee or hip : (can't remember which) while patrollers used ice axes and crampons to get down into the woods to rescue him. We even had two patrollers severely injured last season: one trying to make a rescue (broke both heels when he slid into a tree) and the other trying to rope off a trail (lacerated liver when she slid into a tree).

I know those are extreme situations, but they do happen, and more often than people like to think. And when people say you can't fall off a cliff in the East, tell that to the poor guys making a movie on the backside of Stowe last year, when a well-known and respected local skier slid to his death off a 300-foot cliff. We DO have cliffs here.

We also have people get lost in the backcountry and spend time overnight being pretty darn cold, and while that's bad enough, if they fall into one of the brooks or rivers, they are in serious danger. A few years ago, one guy almost died after spending a few nights outside in frigid weather (most Easterners here probably remember the news stories about this). And when someone who is not prepared to go into the backcountry decides to go off the backside of Jay, or Stowe, or Smuggs, or anywhere else, and they get lost, SOMEONE has to go look for them. Those someones are patrollers and local search and rescue organizations. Stowe doens't have its own search and rescue org for nothing, they exist because they are necessary.

So, people need to stop taking safety so lightly on the East Coast. You can't make a blanket statement that what happens at Nashoba Valley is what happens at Jay or Stowe. They are worlds apart.

Unfortunately, people being careless at Nashoba then decide to be careless at Stowe and then decide to be careless at Jackson Hole. Nothing happened before, so why worry? That is what's going through their heads.

And, by the way, I am not directing those statements toward EXPERIENCED backcountry skiers and riders. Just as experienced backcountry riders are always cautioning "newbies" to take safety courses, I am cautioning people that they may not know as much as they think they know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by freeskinow
Thatsagirl, some of the bull $hit that management offers down this way along with incompetent patrollers, really can be frustrating. They close a perfectly fine trail only to open a vary dangerous ones.
Clearly, I can't comment on that. But don't think this applies across the board to all patrollers and all resorts, because it doesn't. And it's dangerous to think it does. There's not a big leap between being careless at a small hill where there are few if any consequences to making a mistake at a larger mountain that can cause serious injury or death.

Thatsagirl
post #198 of 220
Quote:
You've said a lot of stuff that's full of insults about patrollers, but I'm only going to point out the one thing above. I don't know where you ski, but most patrollers not only can ski their way out of a paper bag as if THEIR lives depended upon it, they also have to be able to ski their way out of a paper bag as if YOUR life depended upon it--while hauling a sled with deadweight in it. Who do you think hauls people off cliffs and steeps? Who hauls people out of woods (and in the East, TIGHT woods)? Who skis the cliff areas, steeps and woods to check them for safety? Patrollers, all of whom are quite capable of "ripping it up" and are hardly a "rare breed."

Don't even get me going on the "if the patrollers can, I can" mentality. You cannot compare the rights of a paying customer of unknown skiing ability with mountain personnel whose job it is to check trails for safety, provide search and rescue, and sweep trails at the end of the day to make sure everyone's off the mountain and no one is left injured overnight.

You might be an awesome skier, I am not questioning that. But the resort cannot just assume that you are capable of skiing anything and everything on the mountain. Funny thing about patrollers, though: Not only do they have to be able to ski everything on the mountain, they also have to be able to ski (ride or telly) everything on the mountain HAULING A SLED. Yep, there are auxilliary patrollers who can't ski everything on the mountain, but they're not the ones checking that trail you want to poach, so it's a moot point. You should reconsider insulting the people you are relying upon to come to your aid if something happens to you...God forbid. Of course, they'll save you even if you are belligerent to their faces because that's the kind of people patrollers are (they will also think you have a brain injury since belligerence is a symptom : ).

Yah, maybe I'm a bit biased about patrollers because I'm married to one now, and many of my friends are patrollers too, but that wasn't always the case. And on those days when I saw patrollers getting a few jollies skiing a closed trail before opening it to the public, I thought to myself, "Lucky them! Too bad I have no interest in becoming a patroller so I can enjoy that particular perk. Oh well, poor me."
Where was I insulting to patrollers? Where? Point it out to me, please. There's one thing that I loathe, and it's people putting words in my mouth. I've skiied a lot of resorts where I have nothing to say about patrollers. Nothing. They do a job that is rough, sometimes dangerous, and people often overlook that. But when I pay for my ticket, I have the same right as everyone else to ski a particular area that was safe yesterday without the additional snow: patrollers who poach are still poachers.

As far as skiing goes, this hill doesn't have 1000 feet of vertical and almost every trail merges with 2-3 trails who are very flat and long, meaning that this thing doesn't have any real expert terrain: the only double black is a blue at best at a 1000 vert mountain in the East. And don't even think about bumps, there are none, bar for 200 feet at the left of a flat trail... I've skied with a sled before, it can be hard work in steep area, but this resort has none. What does this mean? Anyone who wants a free pass and doesn't mind having to take a 2 hours course can be a patroller... This resort has 2-3 patrollers who are actually fully trained medics and they are probably the best skiers of the bunch, the others are there to check for ticket, infractions and reassure people when they hurt themselves. Let me repeat that: there are only a handful of patrollers who ski the sled and actualy are trained to perform medical maneuvers that aren't covered in the basic CPR course.

This resort is far from having what I'd call a good patrol staff. It doesn't have a lot of good instructors either... Mountains that actually have hairy terrain need patrollers who can ski this every terrain in that area. A hill in the middle of flat land, where any intermediate skier can ski any given trail, gets patrollers (and instructors) who are mainly intermediates or a bit higher.

And I've never been belligerant to any of the patrollers that did a good job. Never. As I said, I know their job is harsh, I don't make it harder. My problem is mainly with the "my word is that of God" type: these aren't the majority of patrollers, but they are often the ones in charge. Same thing with instructors or lifties: so you can just drop the passive agressivness.
post #199 of 220
JeffR, I didn't put words in your mouth:

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffr

I got to the resort at the same time as these selfish a$$holes... When I complained to the resort, I was only told that ski patrol did that to ensure the safety of skiers... URGGHHHH.

Why can't I duck the rope if the patrollers are doing it? Especially when they couldn't ski their way out of a paper bag if their life depended on it (no offense to those who can actually rip it, but you are a rare breed)?

I wouldn't duck the rope in resort A, but resort B better have patrollers with fast planks*... I know for a fact that ski patrol gets a lot of flak from people who are fed up with resort policies, but sometimes, this flak is very, very, very well deserved. Being too lazy to put up signs to warn for obstacles and just close a trail also falls into the category of ridiculous policies. Ski patrol should make the skiers' experience more enjoyable and safer, not act as if they were above everybody else and had the absolute right to decide right from wrong. Closing a trail because you can't work a sled there, I can understand; closing a trail because there is major obstacles (snowmaking, a lot of rocks, unskiable ice), I can understand, but closing a trail because it looks to gnarly for you to ski? Weak, and we see this a LOT in the East.
And you make it quite clear this is directed towards resorts in the East. Pretty blanket statement there. If you are directing this ONLY at your ski resort, say so. But you didn't.

Thatsagirl
post #200 of 220
Quote:
And you make it quite clear this is directed towards resorts in the East. Pretty blanket statement there. If you are directing this ONLY at your ski resort, say so. But you didn't.

Thatsagirl
Humm, what about no... Here's what I said:

Quote:
I've skiied a lot of resorts where I have nothing to say about patrollers. Nothing. They do a job that is rough, sometimes dangerous, and people often overlook that. But when I pay for my ticket, I have the same right as everyone else to ski a particular area that was safe yesterday without the additional snow: patrollers who poach are still poachers.
To say that this is a blanket statement is ridiculous to say the least. I will reiterate my point for the last time: there are good patrollers and then there are bad patrollers and this is pretty much on a resort to resort basis. The guys on ski patrol at Massif de la petite rivière Saint-François for example, are great dudes who can ski the hardest stuff and are helpful to clients. I've seen one of these go down a steep mogul run in crazy rain (while on tele gear) in order to inspect the bottom of the trail. That's a guy who can ski.

I'm sure you'd be pretty angry to be denied getting first tracks after taking a day off from your daily occupation because some poachers decided to ski the trail while it was closed. But what about guys on the ski patrol? I understand that they must check for rocks and trees and avalanche and stuff... on a slope in the East that is around 400' long and that was skiied by more than a thousand people the day before... Why when the guy with the cross in the back does it, it's okay? Shouldn't they be the ones giving the example? At the very least, they could've kept some of the pow for the clients, but as I said, the whole trail was cut up when they finally opened it, 30 minutes after I got there.

These guys used the powers that were given to them by the resort in order to accomodate themselves, simple as that... there was a reason they had a guy standing guard at the top you know, and it wasn't because of safety concerns... unless you're real gullible.
post #201 of 220
Ok. Here's one for you all and an example of how it affects everyone, not just the person ducking the ropes.

Today, It's pouring rain at Sugar bowl.

Most everyone is off the mountain now. The Safety people have been sent home. The patrollers are starting to do their sweeps etc. At 3:50, just as they are about to do the final sweeps and shut down the mountain, a girl comes into the patrol office. Frantic, her boyfriend has not shown up and she has not seen him since about noon. He is on a snow board.

The patrol has to call every person they can find and start the searches and sweeps all over the mountain.

They are now loading up the snow cats with head lamps and search gear and head up the mountain for a final search when the call comes across the radio that the 26 yr old male snowboarder has been found.

The story?

He went to the top of lincoln and ducked a boundry rope that has a skull and crossbones on it warning that leaving the boundries of the resort can be a life threatening gamble. Also there is no lift access once you cross over this area boundry.

He then proceeds past several big red signs also warning of the impending danger. He keeps going. When he finally reaches some railroad tracks he NOW realizes that he has no idea where he is. I am not sure if he took his board off and started following the tracks or if the train just happened along at this time but he trys to wave down the train. It does not stop but it slows enough for him to run along side fast enough to hop on the last car. The Train continues on it's way and finally stops in Truckee. He then calls and gets a cab to bring him back to Sugar Bowl. I'm sure the person that let him on the train told him he probably would have died out there except for the fact that he happened to get picked up by the train.

He didn't call the resort or his girlfriend to tell them that he was ok and on the way back so all the people that were headed out looking for him were being put at risk.

Don't know what the final outcome will be but you can bet many people today are greatly affected (adversely) today. It's howling wind and flood stage causing rain out here. Any of you that are willing to duck ropes, ready to go on a search and rescue in horrid conditions like that because someone decided "It's ok to ignore the ropes, It's my life and only affects me"

DC
post #202 of 220
Dave, its wrong for an unprepared person to duck the ropes to access BC in this manner. On the other hand, many skiers and boarders have invested the time and money to properly prepare for backcountry and wilderness, and know the BC routes. It has taken may years for the boundaries to be posted with serious warnings of hazards, rather than threats of arrest. Open boundary policies and gates are welcomed progress for some well prepared outdoor enthusiasts. Unfortunately ropes and boundaries have aways been abused by a small handful of idiots that refuse to properly prepare for the experience and consider themselves above the rules and consequences of their own actions.

I am concerned that stories like this could lead to a reversal of the open boundary policy we enjoy in much of the Tahoe area. A distinction needs to be made between the casual rope ducker, and those that have a legitimate right to pass beyond area boundaries by virtue of their training, preparation and equipment. The kind of abuse described by your story will probably continue to occur regardless of how tightly the boundary is secured or signed. I just hope it does not lead back to criminalizing legitimate users of BC.
post #203 of 220
DC, check out my who's responsible thread. It's a good discussion.

The point I'm trying to make is, why is so different to duck a rope or go out the gate that's only fifty feet away?

If the area boundary is roped off, and there is a cliff or unskiable terrain there, why don't they just say so. Why allow someone to enter the same terrain through a gate just a ways away?

Look, I know the dangers of ducking a rope. I've been skiing for 45 years and the last 5 years has been much of it out West. I've ducked the rope a few times I'll admit that. Only because I was with people who were long time backcountry skiers and knew where they were going. It's really no greater risk than entering a gate a few hundred feet down the hill is it?

Read my other post, I ask some interesting questions.
post #204 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cirquerider
Dave, its wrong for an unprepared person to duck the ropes to access BC in this manner. On the other hand, many skiers and boarders have invested the time and money to properly prepare for backcountry and wilderness, and know the BC routes. It has taken may years for the boundaries to be posted with serious warnings of hazards, rather than threats of arrest. Open boundary policies and gates are welcomed progress for some well prepared outdoor enthusiasts. Unfortunately ropes and boundaries have aways been abused by a small handful of idiots that refuse to properly prepare for the experience and consider themselves above the rules and consequences of their own actions.

I am concerned that stories like this could lead to a reversal of the open boundary policy we enjoy in much of the Tahoe area. A distinction needs to be made between the casual rope ducker, and those that have a legitimate right to pass beyond area boundaries by virtue of their training, preparation and equipment. The kind of abuse described by your story will probably continue to occur regardless of how tightly the boundary is secured or signed. I just hope it does not lead back to criminalizing legitimate users of BC.
So what do we do, all carry cards saying that we are backcountry certified?

Anyone without a valid card isn't allowed?
post #205 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars
So what do we do, all carry cards saying that we are backcountry certified?

Anyone without a valid card isn't allowed?
That could work out West. Certified OB. I doubt it would work in the East. Stick with the old method!
post #206 of 220

Zero tolerance at Mt Snow.

This blows!
I got my ski pass taken for a week today at Mt Snow for skiing Hop.
They are enforcing a "new" zero tolerance policy for ducking ropes this year.
How was I supposed to know it was in effect other than getting pinched?
Last year, verbal warnings, this year... well I just told you what happened.
And my freaking name goes into the computer.
She told me to warn all of my dirtbag ski buddies that this was the deal.
So I will vent here and tell all of you to watch your ass.
post #207 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsideskiir
This blows!
I got my ski pass taken for a week today at Mt Snow for skiing Hop.
They are enforcing a "new" zero tolerance policy for ducking ropes this year.
How was I supposed to know it was in effect other than getting pinched?
Last year, verbal warnings, this year... well I just told you what happened.
And my freaking name goes into the computer.
She told me to warn all of my dirtbag ski buddies that this was the deal.
So I will vent here and tell all of you to watch your ass.
jsideskiir:

A: Welcome to EpicSki.

B: No sympathy from me (although you WILL get a lot of sympathy from many of those who have posted in this thread). You broke a rule thinking/hoping there would be no consequences. Apparently there are. I'll bet the word will get out fast.

I'm glad someone back East is enforcing the rules.
post #208 of 220
I am with Bob on this one. You duck a rope, get caught, lose pass for a week, get put on the list. Tough Shit...

There need to be, have to be, MUST BE, consequences to your decisons and your actions. Welcome to the world. :
post #209 of 220
Thanks for the warning, jsideskiir, I'll be sure to pass the word on to fellow dirtbags.

:
post #210 of 220
So sorry to hear about your misadventure at Mount Snow. They can be ruthless. Your story makes me want to go up there and test fate! But I don't want to loose my pass.

Heh man you gotta watch out. That is really their only deterrent. Without some means of enforcement there would be total anarchy. Now it's just the snowboarders causing social breakdown.

You're lucky it wasn't worse, like the rest of the season.
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