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opinion about breaking rule and riding closed trail - Page 5

post #121 of 220
For every person who knows it's not the thing to do, there is one or two who think it's ok to duck a rope or knowingly ski a closed trail.

It all comes down to knowing right from wrong and having the conscience thought process that tells you in the back of your mind if it's ok or not.

It is less dangerous here in the East for one reason only. The lack of an avalanche danger. There are other reasons for slope closure. Snowmaking is the most used reason for closing a trail around here. The next reason is lack of Resort personell. In other words, for financial reasons the resort decides to eliminate the operations of one or more lifts that service certain trails. This happens frequently during early season or midweek when the skier numbers drop off considerably. Of course, pissing off season pass holders and regulars.

As a patroller, nothing upset me more than catching someone poaching fresh tracks on a powder day on a slope that was closed. Shoot, if I couldn't ski it why should you? But, being an understanding guy, I'd listen to most stories of why they should be able to ski it and I couldn't, then I'd explain why I should rip their lift pass and send them on their way. Most of the times I'd ask them how it was, give them my spiel and send them off to ski the rest of the day. The beligerant ones would get the walk to the parking lot.

Skiing through snowmaking is not only dangerous, it's stupid. Hoses and nozzles aren't good. Some slopes are closed right after snowmaking so that the groom will set to temperature. A mix of man made and natural sometimes needs to blend together so you're not skiing soft to sticky. Makes for good faceplants. And there is the monkey see, monkey do factor. Someone sees one set of tracks and decides if someone has already skied it, it must be ok.

Even in the East, you're still taking some kind of risk entering a closed trail or a roped off slope. All this discussion and it isn't going to change anyones mind. The one who has ducked the rope and gotten away safely will continue to do so. The ones who have ducked the rops and got caught or injured or caused someone else to get hurt or killed will never do it again.

Let it rest.
post #122 of 220

Element of Risk

Snowmaking is one area of concern that has not been discussed much here. The soft snow and variable conditions can really spell disaster if you are going fast and suddenly stop dead. People do get hurt from time to time due to slow snow. I generally won' ski a trail closed for grooming or snow making.

That of course can happen on open trails too. Management should manage this danger but sometimes the get lazy. Ungroomed, frozen manmade snow can be slick as hell. We had an incedent where many tourists slid out of controll into the woods and snowmaking equipment. There were injuries but it could have been a real mess.
post #123 of 220
For my fellow easterners, picture a double black diamond with snowmaking going on and it looks perfect ( patrol probably didn't get a chance to open it yet)... Duck the rope?
What happens when you get to the fifth or sixth snowgun going about 25MPH, and it's airhose clogged and is blowing pure water. Looks perfectly white like snow, but skis like porcelain... A double fall line at that point takes you right into the trees....
I know a Quadraplegic (former) expert skier who wishes she respected closed ropes...
On a funnier note, at Killington every May, they close Bear mountain while Outer Limits is still skiable. On those weekends, we ski off the backside of Superstar, time it right and get 2 or 3 runs of corn on O.L and arrange for someone to pick us up in a car. I got followed once. I turned around and asked if he knew where he was going, he replied "no, but it looks like you do". I said "yes, to my car, which is a 17 mile cab ride from the nearest running lift and where your car is parked...." He only had to hike about 200 feet back.
I've seen Tommy Moe ski off a 400 foot cliff at Jackson Hole and deploy a basejumpinglike Chute. I wonder if he ever had anyone follow him unprepared....:
post #124 of 220

That was nice of you

to give him a lift.
post #125 of 220
I've fallen face first in front of a snow gun going at full blast.....not pleasant...
post #126 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by freeskinow
That was nice of you to give him a lift.
I actually had no room, I think there were 8 of us in a Chevy Blazer, IIRC.
I thought it was nice of me to turn him back before he got too far along.
post #127 of 220
Gee. How appropoe(sp)?

From KSL...

Snowbird sent search teams looking for th(re)e teenagers when parents said they didn't return from snowboarding. Officials say the boarders ducked a boundary rope and became stranded in a closed area.

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=142694
post #128 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie
Gee. How appropoe(sp)?

From KSL...

Snowbird sent search teams looking for th(re)e teenagers when parents said they didn't return from snowboarding. Officials say the boarders ducked a boundary rope and became stranded in a closed area.

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=142694
And they're home safe and sound with mommy and daddy right now. Tomorrow they'll be bragging to their 'bros. :

American society needs more accountability.
post #129 of 220
At jay peak this last wednesday I ducked the rope into one of the Vauxhalla following some local around and was the sweetest skiing I have ever done, untracked 2-3 feet of super light snow. So what if I am selfish, Powder is meant to be skied, not looked at, if i get there first dot get caught, and have help in case of something, I skied more snow.(we had a group of 10)

As for the discussion on the area known as the "The Dip"(area right of timbukto) Jay has open boundaray policy, and the signs are there to inform not to prohibite. Also there is a way to traverse back to the jet triple with out ever taking a ski off.

At my local resort here in PA there will not open up a slope unless it is groomed first, and the tree are never really allowed to be skied. I have skied entire days, where I have only skied closed runs. Only time i ever got yelled at was Oct 25th this year the Mountain Manager chase me down as i was hiking and said the resort was closed you cant ski there. I told him open up a lift(over a foot of snow) and just kept walking up, his 300lb ass just ran out of breath. Never hit any thing hard in 6 runs of oct skiing in Pa.

There are dangers anytime you ski, anywhere. I am not out there to get hurt and really am careful. With that said the scariest thing that happen to me on that day at Jay Peak was in everglade, when i stoped above a tree and got sucked down to my chest a in treewell and had to be pulled out by one of the guys I was skiing with.
post #130 of 220
Must be wary and pick your spots...TRASHED my P40's 4 years ago after an early season 28" dump at Sunday River on a closed trail full of big rocks (which I was aware of before ducking in)...early season brain fart on my part as I saw a boarder floating nicely on top...I however was on skis and not exactly fatties.........OUCH
post #131 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Peters
And they're home safe and sound with mommy and daddy right now. Tomorrow they'll be bragging to their 'bros. :

American society needs more accountability.

Bob,

I really hope they are in Court tommorrow. I'll keep everyone posted.

L
post #132 of 220
got sucked down to my chest a in treewell and had to be pulled out by one of the guys I was skiing with.[/quote]

Treewell's CAN be nasty
post #133 of 220
I saw this on the local news last night about the fellow that got lost at Keystone last month; here's the link:

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news...25/detail.html
post #134 of 220
Quote:
I know a Quadraplegic (former) expert skier who wishes she respected closed ropes...
well, how did it happen?

Quote:
American society needs more accountability.
if that were the case, the title of this thread would be "what are your favorite ropes to duck?"
post #135 of 220
Thread Starter 
i dont really see how snomaking can be dangerous, these days most sno guns are mounted on high post to eliminate danger, the "sled guns" are perfectly fine, in fact last year i was really bored and i skiied 20ft in front of the snogun whcih was on and when i came out of the spray i was a frozen icicle/snowman! even 20ft from it is was blowing pretty hard so i wouldn't consider putting my face like 5 ft or even 10 ft away from it because that can possibly be dangerous. Then big mounds of snow that snoguns create "can" be dangerous if your stupid and u dont look at what is behind them before you go off of them, i always have a buddy stand and tell me if its clear then i do it for him and thats how we stay safe...
post #136 of 220
To those testosterone addled folks to whom a closed rope has the same effect that cliffs have to lemmings........after 27 years of seeing how stupidity can be painful I say have at it........your local patrol appreciates the business!!.....
post #137 of 220
Many of the ski resorts in the south have facilities at the top of the mountain. A couple years ago, I was waiting at the top of a run near a parking lot at Snowshoe WV on a powder day. It was 9:05am and they were late opening the trails, so the ropes were still up at the top. Being a powder day, I was getting impatient and seriously thought about ducking the ropes to start skiing. Well, it's a good thing I didn't. A patroller finally rode up on a snowmobile at 9:15am and took down one rope that led to the main mountain. They left another trail closed off because the lift servicing that part of the mountain was not running yet. Had I ducked the rope and skied down that trail, I would have been waiting a couple hours at the bottom for the lift to open and get me back up to the top (or would have had a long hike uphill!).

So at ski areas where the facilities and your car are at the top, definitely think twice about ducking ropes. Sometimes even gravity is not your friend.

Craig
post #138 of 220
I'm willing to bet that everyone on this thread who said "ducking ropes is stupid" have at one time or more driven a car after having had an alcoholic beverage, or exceeded the speed limit on occasion... yet are just hypocritical enough to think these actions are more responsible than a skier out just having fun.

I've ducked ropes for 40 years and never put anybody in jeopardy. Some of my best runs ever were on the other side of the ropes, which isn't such a surprise since not only is this where the best untrammeled snow is, but also the most interesting features and terrain.

When you've put the milage in, there are many, many, many significant runs in your life that were closed. Chamonix is a great example. This place puts very few ropes up, but where they do put them is to let people know that a severe hazard exists. If you really want to ski Cham, the most interesting stuff is behind the ropes and... no one comes out and screams at you for being adventurous. They have a rather novel concept there that "everyone should take responsibility for themselves".

US ski areas don't open runs that might give their average whitebread customer reason to complain. Insufficient coverage and insufficient staff are a pretty poor excuse - 30 years ago, rock avoidance was just another skill in skiing. Part of the sport is the adventure, and if you want it all canned in a user-friendly package then, sure, stay on the Disneyland side of the ropes. I've seen too many mountains held back in the 80's by law enforcement-type patrollers who are too lazy to flag obstacles and put a up a warning sign at the entrance of a fresh run, yet have an endless amount of energy in policing anyone who might usurp their authority. These people aren't skiers - just hungry to dominate others.

Of course, it's not always fair to focus on Patrol when policy is sometimes dictated by fluffy air-headed ski area management. Half of these people are so out of touch with the sport I sometimes wonder if they've ever tried it.

Either way, I'll be grinning from the wrong side of the ropes and all the power to those who try to catch me.
post #139 of 220
I'd really rather not comment on this topic. The anti rope jumping sentiment is just overwhelming . I used to, and good times were had. That was then, this is now.
post #140 of 220
ducking a rope is dumb if you don't have much skill to ski something you're not expecting.

any other time, any other skier who's competent, it's just a personal decision.

I duck 'em when I know the terrain. sometimes.

and sometimes I don't.

I wouldn't encourage my kids to do it... if I had them.

and since I'm not a ski patroller, I'm not in any position to tell others whether they should or shouldn't.
post #141 of 220

Dangers of snomaking

Quote:
Originally Posted by staffpro
i dont really see how snomaking can be dangerous, these days most sno guns are mounted on high post to eliminate danger, the "sled guns" are perfectly fine, in fact last year i was really bored and i skiied 20ft in front of the snogun whcih was on and when i came out of the spray i was a frozen icicle/snowman! even 20ft from it is was blowing pretty hard so i wouldn't consider putting my face like 5 ft or even 10 ft away from it because that can possibly be dangerous. Then big mounds of snow that snoguns create "can" be dangerous if your stupid and u dont look at what is behind them before you go off of them, i always have a buddy stand and tell me if its clear then i do it for him and thats how we stay safe...
Snowmaking equipment is dangerous for a variety of reasons. There are water pipes and air pipes that run to the snowmaking equipment. Larger resorts have these underground and there is usually cement "bunkers" with a metal manhole cover or small fire hydrant like coupler for the snowmakers to hook up the lines to the snow making guns. Some resorts have these pipes in a sunken gully at the side of the trail. I have seen a small ski area run a hose across a closed run to get water to snow making equipment. I have seen a snowmaking gun blowing ice because of air pressure problems. It looks like milk. It does blend in very well with the snow, its just slightly shinier, in the right light. The real problem was that it was rippled, so anyone turning their skis sideways to hockey stop was going down. The dangerous thing about the sleds IMHO is the hoses running to them.
post #142 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by staffpro
i dont really see how snomaking can be dangerous,
Obviously you have never been a snowmaker and just don't get it. Let me put it in terms that hopefully you will understand. Pop quiz time:
  • Does an ice climber walk on his climbing rope with his crampons?
  • Does skiing/riding across a snowmaking hose with knife sharp edges damage the hose?
  • If a snowmaking hose breaks under high pressure can it jump around like a big anaconda snake and knock you out cold and do permanent brain damage?
  • Do snowmakers ever get hit in the head by a high pressure snowmaking hose and lose conspicuous for many hours?
  • Do temperature changes mean that the snow guns sometimes just pumps out pure water?
  • If you try to ski through snow with snow gun water, can it grab your skis like a big clamp and launch you right out of your ski bindings so you fly through the air like the superman that your are until you land face first into some really wet snow or worse into a snowgun?

Pop quiz hint. Snowmakers don't like you skiing/riding across their hoses because you are placing their lives in danger.
post #143 of 220

America

is full of people who need baby sitting. That's why our speed limits are so low. That's why we have cops crawling out our butts on the road. That's why we can' drive!

It's liability driven. It's not safety driven.

Quote:
US ski areas don't open runs that might give their average whitebread customer reason to complain

Cheap seats has clarity of mind: I've been carefully ducking ropes for 40 years. I do it less these days, because of safety and because of the excessive hand of the patroll.

I know people disagree but many who have posted are just not like me. Someone said "dishonest", to me that is nothing but a cheap shot. It's my pass, its my body and it's my soul. Some people should look at their own short comings, as I should look at mine.
post #144 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by freeskinow
It's my pass, its my body and it's my soul.
To fail to understand that it's not that simple is to be deliberately obtuse or lacking in intelligence. Since I don't feel like impuning anyone's smarts, I'll lean toward the other explanation.

Your pass is a contract. To enter into that contract, intending to abbrogate it is not really defensible. It's a discussion that went on ad infinitem in the ticket clipping thread. I won't rehash it.

We may or may not wish for a world where your broken body would be left to rot on a closed slope but that's not this world. If you break your body on closed terrain, you become somebody else's problem and risk. You avowed willingness to assume all the risk upon yourself is apropos of nothing.

I have no opinion about your soul.
post #145 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by freeskinow
That's why our speed limits are so low.
My speed limit is 75 mph and speeding tickets are handed out only when the driver exceeds 85 mph. The local ski area has 2,900+ ft vertical drop with almost 3,000 acres in-bounds and an "Open Boundary" policy on all sides...Leave through the gates & re-enter through the gates but it is highly recommended that you read/heed the warnings on the signs before leaving the ski area. Seems reasonable.

Hey, I'm new here- Merry Christmas to all
post #146 of 220
cheapseats >>>"I'm willing to bet that everyone on this thread who said "ducking ropes is stupid" have at one time or more driven a car after having had an alcoholic beverage, or exceeded the speed limit on occasion... yet are just hypocritical enough to think these actions are more responsible than a skier out just having fun."

Ah so it is ok to break the rules, policy, or laws if other people do so even on totally unrelated things? If your point is to say that we all are not rigidly adhering to all rules, policy, or laws in life that I think we can all agree on. Each situation is unique and the way society views such. But that conclusion at the end shows a considerable lack ethical logic. Stretching out that kind of logic to the absurd, the rationalizer might conclude it is alright to rob a bank because people are going 60mph on the freeway instead of 55. Now if you wanted to make a valid argument using that same type of argumentation, you need to show how skiers are breaking other policies of similar nature and seriousness while skiing at resorts. A favorite behavior of those who readily break rules, policies, and laws is that they are quick to rationalize reasons using faulty logic to justify their actions. ...David
post #147 of 220
I've been told that at Alta (by authority),You can duck a rope from the backside- if the Closed sign is facing away from you- sometimes areas that are entered through gates only have ropes further down that can be ducked back onto safer terrain. But ducking a rope for any other reason is pretty foolish. Right up there with "stopping at stop signs is only necissary if there's someone coming" It's the sh** you don't see that kills you.
P.S.- Duck a rope at Deer Valley and get caught- you'll wish you were never born.
post #148 of 220
Either way, I'll be grinning from the wrong side of the ropes and all the power to those who try to catch me.

Sorry, I don't chase or catch A$$holes.

Wanna duck ropes? be my guest.
Get hurt? Tough Shit.
Get caught, lose pass or visit with local law? Tough shit.
post #149 of 220

Well isn't that nice

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Crab
P.S.- Duck a rope at Deer Valley and get caught- you'll wish you were never born.
Other areas have out of bounds policy. DV has nothing to offer but excessive punishment. I'm just not impressed. Reminds me of cops in Georgia. That's what's wrong with America.
post #150 of 220
Other areas have out of bounds policy. DV has nothing to offer but excessive punishment. I'm just not impressed. Reminds me of cops in Georgia. That's what's wrong with America.

No Mr Jones, what you have is a misunderstanding of the facts and issues. DV is located on Private Land and is adjacent to other Private Land. They have neither the right nor the obligation to offer any BC access to OB terrain. Many other areas are located on Public Lands. They have the ability to offer BC access should they or their USFS landlords choose. You should know what you are talking about before making such sweeping generalizations, much like so many here who view it as their right to decide what they will and will not do when recreating on a companies property.
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