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Stivot / Steering Carve - new technique? - Page 2

post #31 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
A pivot is a pivot is a pivot. The tactic has been around a long time, well before the emergence of shape skis. Straight skis required carve supplementation, and pivoting was one of the preferred tools to do that. When shapes came on the scene courses were still set the old way, which made them straight enough to deem pivoting quite unnecessary, and arc to arc became the popular mantra of the day. Since then course sets have intensified in offset, and now pivoting is coming back into focus as a primary technical element. Some who don't possess a knowledge of the history of race technique think this is something new. It's not.

What's new is this "stivot" term. Why do we need a new term for a pre carve redirection? I'll watch OLN this afternoon and see if Chad is claiming some type of subtle difference between a pivot and a stivot. If a difference does exist, I doubt it's of great significance. From the term I'm guessing it has something to do with the presence of pressure during the redirection, as occurs when steering. I'll post again after the race.
hey I think this Rick guy is on to something here.

steering "new"? nope.

drifting "new"? nope.

and I'm not even a racer! How the Racers Ski covers the concept of drift and using it for line changing.
post #32 of 61
Speaking of not new, anybody recall the "surf technique" as described by Georges Joubert some 30 years ago? It involved sliding a flat ski way out to the side in the fall line while the torso remained inside until time to reengage the edges and zip past the next gate. He published some stick-figure drawings that depicted a skier with knees that bent sideways. Those French always were a bit different.
post #33 of 61
I spent quite a bit of time doing the "surf technique". I think it was in detail in Skiing an Art a Technique (I'll look, I still have my copy)The drill he reccomended was to go downhill in a "chair" position with your hands on your knees and rotate your feet under your knees (flat skis requiered) It worked pretty well in softer snow but i never perfected it on hardpack.
Come to think of it, it was kind of what Bode does when he crosses in the backseat.

Kneale
I'm coming to Boyne Highlands for the Mid -Am the first weekend in Jan.
post #34 of 61
We've been training this with our kids and having some pretty good results. I set a row of whiskers up the falline from the inside pole of the panel about four meters. The task is to finish the turn to the brushes then, keeping the tips on the brushes, hop the tails around and direct the skis to the panel. The problem is when the athlete makes the move to early and gets later and later in their line. Timing is everything here. Our first GS race is at Mt Ripley this week end. We'll see how it works.
post #35 of 61
Its funny, Ive been flamed here and elsewhere for many years stating that WC skiers dont carve every turn since they need to brake and some gates are set so tight that it is simply impossible to carve GS with 21m FIS sidecut.
post #36 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6
Its funny, Ive been flamed here and elsewhere for many years stating that WC skiers dont carve every turn since they need to brake and some gates are set so tight that it is simply impossible to carve GS with 21m FIS sidecut.
I hope I wasn't one who did so. to quote Yoda, "racers don't really carve, they skip across the surface of the snow, little tiny skips."
post #37 of 61
tdk6
You'll get no argument (flame) from me on that one.
post #38 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6
Its funny, Ive been flamed here and elsewhere for many years stating that WC skiers dont carve every turn since they need to brake and some gates are set so tight that it is simply impossible to carve GS with 21m FIS sidecut.
Tdk6, I think you must be confusing us with the Realskiers forum. Harald swears it's not true.
post #39 of 61
No sweat boyz.... none of you guys are on my black list

Rick, Harald is an interesting caracter.... time will tell....
post #40 of 61
SLATZ--what age are your athletes? I have some J3's and 4's that need this technique when the get to the Junior Olympics Quali's, as there are always a few "make or break" gates which are un-carvable. The Academies must be teaching it, because their kids make that move and kill mine on those few turns that demand that move. My kids gamely try to carve, get low, late, etc... I'm going to try your training method, but with alot of education about when to and not to do it. Anyone else have a good training drill for this move?
post #41 of 61
"Stivot" or "spivot" came up in a discussion I was having with one of the US team coaches several weeks ago. It came up when discussing direct lines and the skidded entry to try to cut some of the line off while controlling speed. It came up simply in the context of "they're calling this a stivot now". And he just kind of shrugged his shoulders as if to say...whatever!

Turnalot
post #42 of 61
It worked. A J1 boy won a race and three were in the top ten in all three races. My J1 girl was second and third(once) and won the last run.
I have two first year J3 kids that are really fast but small, carve very well but too round. Both of them made considerable improvement timewise and their lines are pretty much "spot on".
The key is timing, if it's right it's awsome if it's too early it goes down the drain. It's really hard to get young kids to wait long enough.
The brushes seem to work well. I put them up the rise line in line with the inside panel pole. I use five spread about two meters starting about six meters down to four meters above the panel. The task is to keep the tips on the brushes and hop the tails around until they point to the gate then pressure the edges. It take some kids a lot of convincing.
post #43 of 61

Pivot Brush Drills, Great WC video demo Pivot, Stivot

Quote:
Originally Posted by SLATZ
It worked. A J1 boy won a race and three were in the top ten in all three races. My J1 girl was second and third(once) and won the last run.
I have two first year J3 kids that are really fast but small, carve very well but too round. Both of them made considerable improvement timewise and their lines are pretty much "spot on".
The key is timing, if it's right it's awsome if it's too early it goes down the drain. It's really hard to get young kids to wait long enough.
The brushes seem to work well. I put them up the rise line in line with the inside panel pole. I use five spread about two meters starting about six meters down to four meters above the panel. The task is to keep the tips on the brushes and hop the tails around until they point to the gate then pressure the edges. It take some kids a lot of convincing.
Check out the video of Blardone at Alta Badia - one of the best examples of Pivot and steering pivot turns I've seen this year. I'd show this to all your kids Great coverage of all races!

Link to Sport1.at

I was watching Rowmark's J1's training on upper CB's day before yesterday. Very icy. They had a brush set above the turning gate about apex that the racers went outside of as they hooked up their pivot, then a brush set after the turning gate (about 2 - 3 meters below) that racers were to ski above or inside of. Was a very effective drill. The racers that timed it right could finish the turn inside of the after-brush, those who didn't were hitting it or below it. They used different colored brushes for the Apex brush and the exit brush (Red above, Green on exit).
post #44 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzostrike
hey I think this Rick guy is on to something here. steering "new"? nope. drifting "new"? nope. and I'm not even a racer! How the Racers Ski covers the concept of drift and using it for line changing.
Good perspective Gonz. While historically most truly new technical innovations have been created at the highest levels where competition to win races encourages experimenting with options made available by equipment changes. (I.e. shape skis impact on the last dozen seasons). Then any applicable changes then trickled down to the skiing public thru various formal, or informal, learning venues or informational sources that are more varied now than any time in the past. What appears new is that more people than ever seem to be using these new resources and various venues, to experiment with the opportunities shape skis provide. The result is the introduction and application of more of the “techniques” of the world’s best across all levels of the sport from beginners on up to all mountain skiing and recreational racing.

One of the interesting things in skiing that should never change is that each generation comes along on their own wide-eyed path of discovery and, not knowing the history of the sport, creativity explore some things that might have be considered “been there, done that” by previous generations. The quirky offshoot of this is when someone “sees” something old for “their” first time and thinks they have discovered some "real change in technique" simply because it is new to them (even if only to them). So I’m a bit bemused some of the recent declarations of new techniques cropping up that are simply the same old skills or movements in use (or miss-use) for ages, but re-applied to shape skis. So we should be careful to avoid further jargon confusion (in a sport plagued by it) by miss-representing an old movement as something new, be it rotation from the body core or re-directing the skis before engaging the sidecut, simply because someone who didn’t know what to call it puts a fancy label on it. A new description is not a new technique.

Skiing back then and now is still staying in balance and using edging, pressure and turning movements to go where you want to go in a way that makes you happy. Ideally this involves employing options from blending movements to create effective technical or tactical options for carving groomers, powder, bumps, or whatever you what to do on skis. Depending on skill levels these options all employ common foundational movements with characteristics of biomechanical efficiency and adaptability. An while the order and priority of these movements has evolved to take advantage of shape skis, they have been around for quite a while, and will be for some time to come ready to be adapted to the next opportunity equipment evolution provides.
post #45 of 61
Origionally posted by Gary Dranow
"Check out the video of Blardone at Alta Badia - one of the best examples of Pivot and steering pivot turns I've seen this year. I'd show this to all your kids Great coverage of all races!"
Did that the weekend it was on and showed it at training. Last weekend I taped Kranjska Gora and used it at our team meeting at the race.
Last year we called it the "Bodie move" but I only worked on it with the bigger kids. Too many brushes on the hill get confusing, especially for little ones.
post #46 of 61

P.E.T., Age Groups and terrain

Quote:
Originally Posted by SLATZ
Originally posted by Gary Dranow
"Check out the video of Blardone at Alta Badia - one of the best examples of Pivot and steering pivot turns I've seen this year. I'd show this to all your kids Great coverage of all races!"
Did that the weekend it was on and showed it at training. Last weekend I taped Kransja Gora and used it at our team meeting at the race.
Last year we called it the "Bodie move" but I only worked on it with the bigger kids. Too many brushes on the hill get confusing, especially for little ones.
Yep, I agree that any drill setup teaching the P.E.T. as a tactical element is for more advanced age groups. Without solid fundamentals the pivot entry turn can lead to many unwanted movement patterns such as shoulder rotation, banking and breaking at the waist. What was cool in the training section I was watching at PC was the terrain the coaches selected to set up the drill. This was the break over onto and first turns on CB's face. Those who are not familiar with this track, this is the same hill the was used for the 2002 Olympic GS. CB face boasts an improbable 56 degree pitch and usually is either very hard packed or icy. The drills that were set for the J1's and Mids served three purposes, 1) to get the athletes to start the turn earlier regardless of the terrain and snow 2) to ski tactically a sensible line finishing their turns high enough to stay ahead of the course to the following transition (the "Ghost Flats, only 45 degrees) and 3) learn how to stay aggressive in their initiation (ILE, SLE and P.E.T's) projecting their CM downhill in the face of challenging conditions. With more intention the athletes that performed the well setup drill maintained better skeletal alignment allowing them to control the shape of their turn. The athletes that broke form, typically letting their CM's stay a little too far back or hinging at the waist were not able to stay on the higher line.

Absolutely all of this is for the older more experienced racer and not a situation a coach would want to present to their J4's and most J3's (though I've seen some 1st year J3's that have astounding skill base, they just keep getting better, don't they?). What I liked was how the coaches setup the drills on the terrain the demanded the skills they were working on, it was very congruent.
post #47 of 61
P.E.T.- Pivot entry turn

ILE - Inside leg extension

SLE - Simultaneous leg extensionl

post #48 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
P.E.T.- Pivot entry turn

ILE - Inside leg extension

SLE - Simultaneous leg extensionl

Thanks Rick - Just call me "JargonMan"
post #49 of 61
I did have very good luck using it with a couple first year J 3s who ski too high and round. Showing the video during a break in training is what really seems to get it across. Freeze framing the part where the tails are up and the tips are on the snow goes a long way too.
post #50 of 61
Slatz, contrats on your success with the kids!

Could you go into detail a little more with the implementation and specific obstacles you encountered with your pivot drill?

Such as, what was your thinking in having more brushes below the turn pole than above? Trying to reduce the amount of pivot and require a carve phase at the bottom of the turn?

What type of terrain did you do it on? Did you vary the terrain,,, working your way up to steeper pitch, and/or more offset?

Did you do timed runs for the kids during training so you both had instant confirmation of their progress?

Did you initially have kids pivoting to early, double engaging, sliding and dumping too much speed? If so, how did you overcome it?

And anything else you found surprising, enlightening during the process that you think we might benefit from.

Thanks
post #51 of 61
I only used a line of brushes above the gate.
The course was even rythm about 24 to 26 meters betweeen gates and about 8 to 10 meters offset.
The terrain was not really steep enough but was all we had. Only the first five gates had much pitch so I didn't put brushes on the last five.
The task was to hop at the brushes, on the tips, displacing the tails to point at the line under the gate.
A trip to the TV half way through on the first night helped a lot.
Everyone wanted to move too early. It took a lot of convincing to get them to try it. There were frequent "relapses". The ones that got it were pretty amazed at the way it felt.
There were lots of demos of the hop on the tips. These kids spend a lot of time on their tails.
I was really surprised at how much faster the kids were when they did it right. I didn't think there would be such a noticable difference on a hill with that pitch.
A couple kids with GS points in the 90s were noticably faster when they switched from their higher, rounder line.
As I said before the J 3 kids who skied too high and round got really quicker and right on the panels when they figured it out.
We did set up the timer but it promptly malfunctioned so we didn't get the "hard evidence". I'm not sure it would have been too accurate because our hill is ten gates and half are on the flat. Maybe the Brower at the transition point would be a true test?
post #52 of 61
Thanks, Slatz. I guess I miss-read this, thinking you had brushes 6 meters below the gate too.

Quote:
The brushes seem to work well. I put them up the rise line in line with the inside panel pole. I use five spread about two meters starting about six meters down to four meters above the panel.
I empathize with you on your limited training terrain. I stuggeled with that for years. Just so much you can do. Keep up the good work.
post #53 of 61
Maybe it should have had a comma between meters and down.
"starting about six meters, down to four meters" In other words, a line of brushes two meters long.
post #54 of 61
SLATZ
Great description. I have two 2nd year J3's whom learning this could make the difference between qualifying or not for JO's. I'm a little nervous about setting it up right, giving the correct feed-back, demonstrating, etc.: Do you have any video of your training sessions hanging around that you could share by any chance?
post #55 of 61
Sorry I don't. I could draw it out, scan it and e-mail it to you. Or I could FAX the drawing. PM me with the e-mail address or FAX number. I think you can get Blardone's run from that site Gary sent. If that doesn't work I still have the races on my TIVO. I could burn them onto a DVD and mail it to you.(there's some good slalom there too)
Last year a J 1 kid that I'd been working on this with went to the J 1s out there and had a really bad time on the steeper terrain. From what I could find out it was a timing of the turn issue. I'm sure that if you watch the video for the timing points you can figure it out for your mountain.
post #56 of 61

When Pivots are called for

Quote:
Originally Posted by SLATZ
Sorry I don't. I could draw it out, scan it and e-mail it to you. Or I could FAX the drawing. PM me with the e-mail address or FAX number. I think you can get Blardone's run from that site Gary sent. If that doesn't work I still have the races on my TIVO. I could burn them onto a DVD and mail it to you.(there's some good slalom there too)
Last year a J 1 kid that I'd been working on this with went to the J 1s out there and had a really bad time on the steeper terrain. From what I could find out it was a timing of the turn issue. I'm sure that if you watch the video for the timing points you can figure it out for your mountain.
Just a personal observation about Pivot turns as a tactical element within the context of a race run. This is for Skizz basically. In my own ski racing on the IMD Master's circuit I encounter several courses that based on pitch, speed, set, snow conditions simply demand a pivot turn here and there. It is not something I think about during race inspection. I believe one can practice the skill in properly set drills to start with but it is not something one would decide to do based on an inspection of a section. The racer develops the skill in drills or especially free skiing on steep terrain or icy conditions and it becomes a second nature maneuver that the racer just does when called for. My point is that if a racer had preconceived ideas that they are going to pivot here or there they may find that it wasn't called for and their timing gets blown out the window. All types of P.E.T. moves are high level skills that are developed through experience more than practice and just becomes a part of the racer's arsenal to pull out at the spur of the moment, because he/she has to as dictated by their speed, the terrain, snow and set.

Here's a simple free environment exercise any of you can try to put yourself in the situation to pivot. Pick a hill that has a flat, break over, then steep section. Please use hard pack, this should not be tried for the first time in packed powder : Use GS skis and make several runs. Figure out what is a close to a 23 - 25 meter turn as you can get and then make the run keeping the radius consistent - at all costs (life and limb). As you reach the steep section the tendency is to increase the radius of the turn to try and keep the skis carving. To stay in the 23-25 meter radius you will have to start skidding the top of your turns. Each pass work on controlling the skid at the top of the turn and progressively add edge angle at the bottom of the turn until you can exit each turn with a carve. Once you hit the steep section start your turn with a good ILE move, this will launch your CM across the slope, you will naturally let your tails slide. Allow yourself some rotary movement of the torso in the first half of the turn as your tails sweep across the top half of the turn. You must keep your hips moving downhill, however. Give it a try and see what develops - good luck!

Just a passing thought
post #57 of 61
The real advantage to kids is the staighter, delayed turn-in line that it uses. They learn they can go straighter if they wait to turn in to the panel.
Most of the drills we use are "self teaching". That is, we don't flood the athlete with information, executing the drill provides the learning.
During course inspection we focus on line and looking ahead. I've found that making a certain gate "special" causes a breakdown in concentration before and after that point. Our line system is very simple and is based on looking two gates ahead. It's very kid friendly and doesn't cause information overload.
During a race if a problem develops in a course my radio instruction might be, "the ride might be a little rough, make sure you're standing on the outside ski" or, "when you're in your tuck keep your elbows ahead of your knees and your hands out over your ski tips". (that last one worked well on a gate where kids were getting launched out when their tails hooked up in a rut)
post #58 of 61
Thread Starter 

Stivot video?

Does anyone know which World Cup race (probably 2005-2006 season) where Benny Raich performed a stivot; rotated across the fall line in a full 90 before bringing tip back to fall line to make the turn? According to the VARA seminar notes from Bill Bolte (see below), this video was shown at the 2006 VARA Coaches Educational Seminar at Okemo, VT on 9/16/06. Also, if you have a link to that video or photo sequence, please post it.


Does anyone have a link to video of Bode Miller's World Cup GS run at Park City, UT 11/22/03 where Ron LeMaster captured this photo from http://ronlemaster.com/images/2003-2...e-pc-gs-1.html




Could someone post a summary of the 3/15/07 Ski Racing magazine Tech Talk section article "Svindal wins with the "super stivot" especially any technique discussion?


If you have any links to any videos (World Cup, USSA, Masters, club, beer league, personal) of the stivot move in a race course, please post. Slow motion of the stivot move would also be appreciated.

Thanks for your help in advance.



STIVOT VIDEO

Bode Miller's 2006 World Cup GS run at Alta Badia, Italy

mms://a1272.v22145.g.vm.akamaistream.net/7/1272/22145/v0001/mlb.download.akamai.com/22145/2006/open/skiing/alpine/121706_fis_miller.wmv (copy and paste this direct link into your browser or go to US Ski Team 2006 Alta Badia press release video highlights section just above the results http://www.usskiteam.com/public/news...dId=2&aId=2494 )

Slow motion footage at 40 seconds in and a stivot at 48 seconds



WCSN video of Francois Bourque's 2007 World Cup GS run at Karnjska Gora, Slovenia





STIVOT USAGE IN THE MEDIA/USSA

The term stivot is appearing in the media (Ski Racing Magazine, WCSN/Reuters) and in USSA seminars if you Google pivot ski www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=stivot+ski



Ski Racing magazine 3/15/07 Tech Talk: Svindal wins with the "super stivot" http://www.skiracing.com/index.php?o...12&Ite mid=55



"Svindal races away with giant slalom" by Reuters / WCSN.com's Nathaniel Vinton 2/14/07 http://www.wcsn.com/article/news.jsp...ntent_id=21660

ARE, Sweden -- Norwegian Aksel Lund Svindal powered to victory in the men's giant slalom on Wednesday to bag his second gold medal of the FIS Alpine World Ski Championships.

Ted Ligety finished fourth, the best placing by an American man at these championships, but it was another frustrating day for teammate Bode Miller.

"There's not a worse feeling in the world than getting the wooden spoon," said Ligety, using his term for a fourth-place finish. "The women are definitely carrying the team right now. It's too bad Bode and I haven't come through yet."

Ligety said that the margin of 0.07 seconds was attributable to a "stivot" that he threw into some of his turns. It's a term the American men use that combines "step" and "pivot."



2006 VARA Coaches Educational Seminar Notes at Okemo Mountain Resort, VT September 16, 2006 by Bill Bolte - posted on New Jersey State Racing Association (NJSRA) website on Coaches Education Page http://www.njsra.org/images/VARA%201...%20Seminar.pdf.

World Cup Tactics & Technique in Modern GS section by Adam Chadbourne, formerly with USSA Development Program, filling in for Chip Knight

Definitions:
STIVOT - rotating the sk tips 'in' on approach to a gate, sliding to check speed, then rotating tips back 'out' to direction of turn to lock skis in for the turn around the gate.

Basic turn shapes:
Arching turn: tail follows tip throughout the turn
Non arching turn: as in a 'stivot' or when tip is in a clean arc but tail swashes

Showed World cup video of Benny Raich performing a stivot; rotated across the fall line in a full 90 before bringing tip back to fall line to make the turn (a must see)
post #59 of 61
All the older stuff is on VHS. I had a machine eat a bunch of those tapes.
Ron LeMaster may have a video of that sequence. When he gives a presentation he can click on an image and play it as a video from there.
post #60 of 61
The CSCF World 2007 DVD shows the Canadians practicing this move in the Giant Slalom training section of the video.

I thought about posting that portion of the video, but would probably be violating the terms of the DVD.
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