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Stivot / Steering Carve - new technique?

post #1 of 61
12/18/05 at 7:13pm
Thread Starter 
Stivot / Steering Carve - new technique?

What is a stivot? How does this stivot differ from the previous GS technique? Is there a good photo sequence that can illustrate this new technique?

I was watching the World Cup racing (aka Ten Weeks to Torino) on OLN for the men's GS race at Alta Badia and heard the commentator refer to a new GS technique (the stivot) during Thomas Grandi's first run about 5 minutes into program.

The commentator described the stivot as steering the skis in the direction that you want them to be going, then applying pressure and setting the edges. He said that the stivot was essentially a steering carve that utilizes the sidecut of the skis. Then he said the new stivot technique has replaced the old belly out/pivot attack technique.

I haven't heard the term stivot before today.

The Alta Badia World Cup men's GS race will be rebroadcast on Mon 12/19 5-6 pm EST on OLN as Ten Weeks to Torino - Alta Badia.

Bode Miller had a good hip check save on his first GS run about 8 minutes into the program before he fell later in the run after some interesting mid-air gyrations to avoid an airmail gate straddle.

Thanks in advance for your help.
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post #2 of 61
12/18/05 at 7:49pm
The Stivot is a steering pivot move where the skis are allowed to drift out as you steer into the new turn then lock the edges and stand on the pressure- kind of a new-school float-touch-sting. On super turny course like Alta Badia where a 21M radius ski is a not in its element the Stivot as Chad Fleischer the OLN announcer calls it allows you to throw the skis out there before you stand on the pressure. When you then load uo the ski the sidecut hooks up and sets the turn.
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post #3 of 61
12/18/05 at 8:42pm
The maneuver is basically a skidded arc into the fall line, and a carving exit. By controlling the acceleration phase we can enter the fall line in better control of our speed. This tactic is not something to use all of the time but it can really set you up for the edged portion of the turn. World Cup applications take this to an extreme but the concept is viable at any level.
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post #4 of 61
12/19/05 at 5:48am
Yeah, this is sort of new to racing. It seems to have been invented (or at least perfected) by Bode, and is what allows him to be so fast and take a straighter line. It's not something that would have any use in normal recreational skiing, since it's done purely for speed in gates.

there is a photo sequence of Bode that I've seen here on epic a few times recently, that shows it quite well. I don't have time to look for it, but I'm sure someone will find it soon.

I should add that I don't like their definition on it. It's more of a pure pivot and redirection of the skis, using little edge, then hooking up the edge at just the right time to get around the gate with maximum speed. It's a low edge angle move, so that the skis can be redirected (pivoted) with little speed loss while they are not pointed in the direction of travel. The Ceneter of Mass of the skier stays pointed in the intended direction of travel, not the direction the skis are pointing. It takes a lot of power and great balance to be able to hook up the edges quickly and get the CM redirected toward the next gate. That's why Bode has a hard time staying in SL (and sometimes GS) course. The moves happen so quickly in the tech events that it's difficult to maintain enough balance and control to pull it off. Bode's the only one willing to try it all the time, which is what makes him either really fast or DNF.
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post #5 of 61
12/19/05 at 9:37am
As I said in another thread, WC snowboarders started using this in about 96 or 97. As GS courses became more turny due to shaped skis it became the move of choice for steep, turny gates. Ron LeMaster talked about it at the 2001 USSCA Acadamy. He simply referred to it as "cutting off the top of the turn".
Bode didn't invent it but his go for broke, all or nothing style sure utilizes it to the max. 21 M turn radius GS skis make it more necessary on today's courses.
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post #6 of 61
12/19/05 at 10:34am
I see it as a 'catch up' technique. After a series of well skied carved gates the speed and or line may have reached a point where the next (usually steep or sharp gate) cannot be made clean if at all. Throwing the skis sideways early allows some speed to be scrubbed coming in while getting the new direction early. Setting the edge cuts off much of the turn with the new direction already in place often down a steeper pitch allowing the skier to exit the gate on line with most or all speed intact.

Don't try this at home as the strength required is substantial. The equipment has apparently only been up to this move in the last 3 or 4 years. It makes sense it may have been used in snowboarding first as the wider boards probably allowed the necessay rigidity for the board to handle this stress along with the ability to stand against this stress with both feet.

Bode certainly uses it but I thought Thomas example at AB was classic. His first 10 gates were some of the best skiing I'd ever seen and Raich skiing just (ahead or after?) struggled to the point of it looking like a different course. As a result Thomas was carrying a ton of speed and then just threw them sideways and 'hit it'.

Spivot strikes me as a pretty weak name for it though.
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post #7 of 61
12/19/05 at 10:48am
World Cup skiing videos
http://translate.google.com/translat...3217348%2Ehtml

Bode Miller is an exhilarating, courageous winner on the ski course. He is not the technically best skier. I'd rather have Giorgio Rocca as the skier I'd like to emulate.


Ken
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post #8 of 61
12/19/05 at 11:11am
A pivot is a pivot is a pivot. The tactic has been around a long time, well before the emergence of shape skis. Straight skis required carve supplementation, and pivoting was one of the preferred tools to do that. When shapes came on the scene courses were still set the old way, which made them straight enough to deem pivoting quite unnecessary, and arc to arc became the popular mantra of the day. Since then course sets have intensified in offset, and now pivoting is coming back into focus as a primary technical element. Some who don't possess a knowledge of the history of race technique think this is something new. It's not.

What's new is this "stivot" term. Why do we need a new term for a pre carve redirection? I'll watch OLN this afternoon and see if Chad is claiming some type of subtle difference between a pivot and a stivot. If a difference does exist, I doubt it's of great significance. From the term I'm guessing it has something to do with the presence of pressure during the redirection, as occurs when steering. I'll post again after the race.
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post #9 of 61
12/19/05 at 11:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
A pivot is a pivot is a pivot. The tactic has been around a long time, well before the emergence of shape skis. Straight skis required carve supplementation, and pivoting was one of the preferred tools to do that. When shapes came on the scene courses were still set the old way, which made them straight enough to deem pivoting quite unnecessary, and arc to arc became the popular mantra of the day. Since then course sets have intensified in offset, and now pivoting is coming back into focus as a primary technical element. Some who don't possess a knowledge of the history of race technique think this is something new. It's not.
The new portion would be the ability to 'hit' the edge and actually hold and pick up the line again so dramatically and successfully. That makes for some new applications of the technique and tactics in using it. I don't think anyone sees pivoting as a newly invented technique.
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post #10 of 61
12/19/05 at 2:02pm
Old newssssssssssski!
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post #11 of 61
12/19/05 at 2:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by L7
The new portion would be the ability to 'hit' the edge and actually hold and pick up the line again so dramatically and successfully. That makes for some new applications of the technique and tactics in using it. I don't think anyone sees pivoting as a newly invented technique.
I think this was clearly explained by Jamesk in the 2nd post. I agree its not a new technique but its current application and execution are totally new- it has reappered with the new course sets on steeper hills like Alta Badia. If you canot link carve to carve with a 21m ski you really have no choice but to throw the skis sideways and stand on the edges in order to make the turn high above the gate.

I kinda like the term Stivot- what I fear is every j3 trying it in the wrong setting!
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post #12 of 61
12/19/05 at 4:40pm
OK, I watched the race and listened to Chad's explanation of a stivot. My impression is that he was very anxious to use a new term he just learned, but is a little confused about what it is.

He referred to it twice. The first time he described it as a steered pivot. Steering and pivoting are two separate carving supplementation techniques. Steering is a pressured redirection, and a pivot is an unpressured redirection, so combining the two together really doesn't make much sense. Plus, WC pre carve redirections are almost exclusively non pressured pivots, so the concept doesn't even reflect what's taking place there.

In his second attempted description he stated that a stivot is an engaging of a carve, then a disengagement, a pause, then a reengagement. That's a double turn, it's a clear execution error, and never an advised tactic. I think Chad really needs to brush up on his understanding of this new term he was told about, or refine his explanation.

So, now I'm left to guess what the originators of the term are trying to communicate. I think they're talking about introducing a pause between the end of the pivot and the engagement of the new carve. During that pause the skis, which have been redirected down the falline, are sliding sideways, perpendicular to the falline, pressured and on a low edge angle, and waiting for the proper time to be engaged into a new carve.

At least that's my current best guess based on what I could make out of Chad's description. Jeeesh, Chad, do we need to bring back Bob Beattie! :
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post #13 of 61
12/19/05 at 5:49pm
Thread Starter 

The new scarve/J-turn variation?

The new scarve/J-turn variation?

The spivot sounds like a combination of a scarve/skarve and a J turn.

The spivot seems especially appropriate technique for certain turny gates where true arc to arc turns can't be achieved with traditional 21m turn radius GS skis. Also as Slatz mentioned the spivot could also be a catch up technique in your race technique quiver.

When is the spivot an appropriate technique in a slalom course?

From Bode Miller interview in 1/04 at training camp in Flachau in Racer Ready magazine. http://mysnowsports.com/main_cpg/For...opic/p=61.html

"Asked about the technique at the start of the turn, known as pitching, Miller explains: “It’s just when you slide your skis sideways and are redirecting into the turn. It’s actively re-directing the skis, as opposed to letting them carve to redirect themselves. And you do it to get rid of speed that you don’t want. And you do it to cut off line. You do it before you have the skis heavily weighted. It’s much easier obviously. If you have them weighted and you chuck them sideways and displace a huge amount of snow and you slow down a lot."



Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesk
The Stivot is a steering pivot move where the skis are allowed to drift out as you steer into the new turn then lock the edges and stand on the pressure- kind of a new-school float-touch-sting.
I like the float-touch-sting metaphor as that is what Thomas Grandi appeared to be doing at Alta Badia on OLN.

Float-touch-sting article 2001 Ski magazine article excerpt "Out With the Old, In With the New: Part II, Step 7" with photos by Ron LeMaster http://www.skimag.com/skimag/instruc...325559,00.html

New: TIGHTER IS FASTER
MIKE: Less vertical distance between gates, better skis and stronger racers changed the game. Now the best competitors can take a tighter line--seen above. We can blast through a gate instead of passing around it, knowing it will break away (A). The line to the next gate is lower and closer to the gate (B). We still start turns very early (C), but the direction change happens with an earlier carve and over a shorter arc. There is virtually no skid (D). This line, which once seemed impossible, now works (provided we are strong enough to withstand the increased G-forces) because we have more confidence in the skis' ability to hold (E).

Photo by Ron LeMaster

Old: STAY HIGH AND ROUND
STU: Back when GS skis were 210 cm long with little sidecut, there was a saying: "float, touch, sting." The fastest way between two points was not a straight line. Smooth, round turns were considered fastest, even if we traveled a longer distance. We stepped uphill to get a higher angle of attack on the gate below (2). We began turns on the "rise line" directly above the turning pole (3). We tried to get the direction change more or less completed before we reached the gate (4), so we "came up under it" in the best position to attack the next gate (5).

Mike Rogan is an instructional contributor for SKI Magazine, a member of the PSIA Alpine Demonstration Team, an instructor at Hunter Mountain, N.Y., and ski school director at Portillo in Chile.



Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnH
there is a photo sequence of Bode that I've seen here on epic a few times recently, that shows it quite well.
Are you talking about the photos from this Ski Magazine article "Bode's Big Secret" http://www.skimag.com/skimag/instruc...29772,00.html?

"Bode's secret lies in what his body does during the transition. Although hard to see in the montage, Bode's center of gravity takes a more direct line down the hill through the transition than his feet do. Even though his center of gravity is behind his feet in the transition, Bode uses his remarkable agility and balance to catch up with his feet by the time he starts to carve, thereby putting him in balance over the forebody of his ski (6 and 7)."



Quote:
Originally Posted by SLATZ
As I said in another thread, WC snowboarders started using this in about 96 or 97. As GS courses became more turny due to shaped skis it became the move of choice for steep, turny gates. Ron LeMaster talked about it at the 2001 USSCA Acadamy. He simply referred to it as "cutting off the top of the turn".
Does this Ron LeMaster/presentation (USSCA National Academy - Phil McNichol & Ron Le Master, May 2002) http://www.ronlemaster.com/presentat...l-LeMaster.pdf especially pages 9-10 (photo sequences on p.10) illustrate what you were talking about.

Rotary Movements
* How is the amount of initial pivot going into the turn affected by pitch, turn radius, turn shape, other factors

Slatz - Benjamin Raich (about 15 minutes into the program) struggled on one gate where the commentator mentioned that Raich "got a little too broke at the waist and hooked up the skis on the high side" which led to Raich skiing out of the course in past races.



Quote:
Originally Posted by SoftSnowGuy
What's new is this "stivot" term. Why do we need a new term for a pre carve redirection? I'll watch OLN this afternoon and see if Chad is claiming some type of subtle difference between a pivot and a stivot. If a difference does exist, I doubt it's of great significance. From the term I'm guessing it has something to do with the presence of pressure during the redirection, as occurs when steering. I'll post again after the race.
What difference is there between a pivot and a stivot?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Skierzzzzzz
Is there an article to go with the photo?
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post #14 of 61
12/19/05 at 6:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnH
there is a photo sequence of Bode that I've seen here on epic a few times recently, that shows it quite well.


Are you talking about the photos from this Ski Magazine article "Bode's Big Secret" http://www.skimag.com/skimag/instruc...29772,00.html?

"Bode's secret lies in what his body does during the transition. Although hard to see in the montage, Bode's center of gravity takes a more direct line down the hill through the transition than his feet do. Even though his center of gravity is behind his feet in the transition, Bode uses his remarkable agility and balance to catch up with his feet by the time he starts to carve, thereby putting him in balance over the forebody of his ski (6 and 7).


This series of photos is not the Spivot but an old tecnique called the foot forward extension.
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post #15 of 61
12/19/05 at 6:55pm
I believe this is the montage John was speaking of.

http://ronlemaster.com/images/2003-2...e-pc-gs-1.html

If my quess (post 12) is right, this may be a good example of it. Do you see why?
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post #16 of 61
12/19/05 at 7:20pm
MIght call this a "stivot" in reverse! Bode's inspiration maybe:
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post #17 of 61
12/19/05 at 7:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
I believe this is the montage John was speaking of.

http://ronlemaster.com/images/2003-2...e-pc-gs-1.html

If my quess (post 12) is right, this may be a good example of it. Do you see why?
This is a great sequence- not exactly the so-called spivot but very very close- what Bode is doing here is almost the old lateral projection-but Bode style as both skis are projected forward and outward at the same time instead of the downhill ski independantly. The last 3 shots show a classic pivot movement. I would love to see the rest of the series as he has to drift quite a ways to make the next gate! Its almost as he is throwing on the brakes.
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post #18 of 61
12/19/05 at 7:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by skierzzzzzz
MIght call this a "stivot" in reverse! Bode's inspiration maybe:
http://www.discesalibera.it/inserime...ine1011201.jpg
More like Steve Mahre's inspiration.
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post #19 of 61
12/19/05 at 7:59pm
Oh no, that's Bode's inspiration, Ingemar's "stivoting" in the opposite direction, just like Bode before he makes a massive recovery or falls.
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post #20 of 61
12/20/05 at 10:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ski03
Mike Rogan is an instructional contributor for SKI Magazine, a member of the PSIA Alpine Demonstration Team, an instructor at Hunter Mountain, N.Y., and ski school director at Portillo in Chile.
Mike hasn't worked at Hunter in a number of years. He's back out in the Tahoe area, but I forget which mountain he calls home. He is still the director at Portillo.

Yes, the Ron LeMaster sequence is the one I was referring to.
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post #21 of 61
12/20/05 at 10:22am
Michael is at Heavenly. He's available for private requests when he is not travelling. He is no longer the SSD at Portillo. He has not been down there for the last 2 summers.
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post #22 of 61
12/20/05 at 12:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by therusty
He is no longer the SSD at Portillo. He has not been down there for the last 2 summers.
That's right. I completly forgot. I skied with him last December at Killington, and it was his first year not at Portillo. Geez, no more 300+ day ski seasons! What's a guy to do?
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post #23 of 61
12/20/05 at 7:42pm
Thread Starter 

Active Redirection?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
OK, I watched the race and listened to Chad's explanation of a stivot.

He referred to it twice. The first time he described it as a steered pivot. Steering and pivoting are two separate carving supplementation techniques. Steering is a pressured redirection, and a pivot is an unpressured redirection, so combining the two together really doesn't make much sense. Plus, WC pre carve redirections are almost exclusively non pressured pivots, so the concept doesn't even reflect what's taking place there.

In his second attempted description he stated that a stivot is an engaging of a carve, then a disengagement, a pause, then a reengagement. That's a double turn, it's a clear execution error, and never an advised tactic. I think Chad really needs to brush up on his understanding of this new term he was told about, or refine his explanation.

So, now I'm left to guess what the originators of the term are trying to communicate. I think they're talking about introducing a pause between the end of the pivot and the engagement of the new carve. During that pause the skis, which have been redirected down the falline, are sliding sideways, perpendicular to the falline, pressured and on a low edge angle, and waiting for the proper time to be engaged into a new carve.
The active redirection that is being used by the racers seems like it must be steering according to your definition (pressured redirection) because the racers are controlling the skid.

What falls into your definition of unpressured redirection (pivot)? If you unweighted and threw your tails over, this throwing of the tails in the air would seem to be unpressured redirection. However, as soon as the tails landed and started to slide, it would seem as though pressured redirection would come into play to control the skid.

I agree that the Ron LeMaster photo montage http://ronlemaster.com/images/2003-2...e-pc-gs-1.html is a good example of this stivot technique because Bode will have to float on his edges/scarve/slide his skis for a few more frames past the last image to clear the gate before he sets his edges harder for next turn.


John H - Thanks for the update on Mike Rogan. I had copied his bio from a link in the 2001 Ski magazine article "Out With the Old, In With the New".
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post #24 of 61
12/20/05 at 11:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ski03
The active redirection that is being used by the racers seems like it must be steering according to your definition (pressured redirection) because the racers are controlling the skid.
Steering not only redirects the skis, it redirects the path of travel of the center of mass (CM). Pivoting only redirects the skis, the travel path of the CM is unaltered. Redirecting the skis while they're pressured (steering) is slow, it introduces drag that an unweighted pivot does not. A pivot, immediately followed by carve is faster. That's why racers do it.

The period between the pivot and the carve is called the feather. It's the period in which the skier is trying to establish a clean edge. It's the feathering skills that seperate the good racers from the great, because the quicker a racer can make it happen, and the less sliding involved, the faster he/she will be. Some racers are so skilled at it that many casual observers don't even realize a pivot was involved in his/her turn initiation. Also keep in mind, the smaller the pivot, the easier and quicker the feather.

Check out these pivot to carve montages:

http://ronlemaster.com/images/latest-images/slides/rothrock-bc-2004-sl-1A.html

http://ronlemaster.com/images/latest-images/slides/cochran-bc-2004-sl-1.html

http://ronlemaster.com/images/2003-2004/slides/pranger-pc-sl-1.html

http://ronlemaster.com/images/2002-2003/slides/Bode-AltaBadia-1.html


These are well executed feathers. They lack the speed dumping, line adjusting slide between the pivot and the carve that Bode is doing in the first link I posted. It's the introduction of that period of sliding that I think is being referred to as the stivot.


Quote:
I agree that the Ron LeMaster photo montage http://ronlemaster.com/images/2003-2...e-pc-gs-1.html is a good example of this stivot technique because Bode will have to float on his edges/scarve/slide his skis for a few more frames past the last image to clear the gate before he sets his edges harder for next turn.
Yep, that's how I'm seeing it too.
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post #25 of 61
12/21/05 at 8:03am

"Stivot" move translation?

I'd appreciate help translating this thread's race-oriented vocabulary to concepts more familiar in recreational skiing and low-level PSIA training. Please correct any misconceptions my questions reveal.

1) One poster uses the term "feathering" for the unweighted skid between the pivoting ski redirection and the re-engaging of edged carve. In the feathered phase, the ski direction changes but the COM direction remains unchanged more-or-less down the fall line. Does this correspond very roughly to a sideslip or (with skis changing direction) pivot slip?

2) Skidding in the early phase of a turn followed by edging in the final phase of the turn to re-engage carving seems roughly equivalent to the old-school approach of skidding into a turn and completing it with an "edge check" to control speed, as contrasted with engaging the edges early in the turn. I've been repeatedly told (because I still do it too much ) that this "skid + edge-check" approach is a major non-no in modern skiing. Do I misunderstand, or this an instance of something being functional at the WC level (when done with great skill) but not at the recreational level? If I can't kick the habit, should I hit the WC circuit?

Thanks for any enlightenment.
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post #26 of 61
12/21/05 at 11:05am
I think it was RICK that posted the stuff you refer to....

If you use the search function & search the terms concerned & his name I think you will find more detail in other threads (especially on feathering)
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post #27 of 61
12/21/05 at 4:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonDeane
I'd appreciate help translating this thread's race-oriented vocabulary to concepts more familiar in recreational skiing and low-level PSIA training. Please correct any misconceptions my questions reveal.

1) One poster uses the term "feathering" for the unweighted skid between the pivoting ski redirection and the re-engaging of edged carve. In the feathered phase, the ski direction changes but the COM direction remains unchanged more-or-less down the fall line. Does this correspond very roughly to a sideslip or (with skis changing direction) pivot slip?
Hi, Don. Disski's right, that poster was me. You're a little off here in #1. The feather is a pressured maneuver. Think of this as a 3 step process.

Step 1, the pivot, skier completes prior turn, unweights his/her skis, and turns them to point down the falline.

Step 2, the feather, skier reestablishes pressure, eliminates the unavoidable slide/chatter, and gets them carving as quickly as possible.

Step 3, skier carves the remainder of the turn.


In a stivot the skiers purposely lengthens the time and distance of step 2.



Quote:
2) Skidding in the early phase of a turn followed by edging in the final phase of the turn to re-engage carving seems roughly equivalent to the old-school approach of skidding into a turn and completing it with an "edge check" to control speed, as contrasted with engaging the edges early in the turn. I've been repeatedly told (because I still do it too much ) that this "skid + edge-check" approach is a major non-no in modern skiing. Do I misunderstand, or this an instance of something being functional at the WC level (when done with great skill) but not at the recreational level? If I can't kick the habit, should I hit the WC circuit?

Thanks for any enlightenment
No, Don, they're not the same things. The check, as you describe it, comes at the end of a turn, after all the desired direction change has been accomplished. It follows a non pressured pivot and/or pressured steer, and is used as a tool to dump some speed, terminate the prior turn, and enter a new one.

In the pivot or stivot being talked about here, the edge engagement is not a check, it's an initiation of a carve, and it comes well before all the needed direction change has been achieved. The carve phase of the turn completes the direction change.

Hope that helps.
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post #28 of 61
12/22/05 at 5:37am
So "Stivot", while it's a fun and easy word to say, doesn't seem to be accurate. It should probably be a "Pirve" (pivot to carve), but since pirve (perve/pervert) is already taken : , I guess Stivot is the best they could come up with. "Carvot" doesn't have a good ring to it either.
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post #29 of 61
12/23/05 at 7:20am

Stivot or Pivot?

I took this shot at the America's Opening
WorldCup at Park City a few years ago.
When I first heard the term, it was "spivot."
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post #30 of 61
12/25/05 at 10:03am

Stivot

Funny you should be mentioning this as I just watched a tutioral on this very topic. Bode does ski instruction videos for Comcast on demand cable and he went into great detail about this technique.

His advice was to skid into the top of the turn to take some speed off then set the edge, let the movement pick up speed, continue thru the turn and repeat...

It's a cool little video if anyone has comcast cable I suggest you check it out.
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