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Smallest bootshell (outside forefoot) available for deep carving without bootout?

post #1 of 28
Thread Starter 
Hey what is the best boot for avoiding overhang on my 66mm wide Slalom Race ski for freecarving and bodycarving My old boots have lost all their color in the forefoot area due to constant bootouts. My boot size is Mondo Point 26-26.5 I don't need to have a super hard boot, little bit harder than the Racetech CS from Atomic would be fine. My overall goal however is not having to worry about bootout on my skis.

Which boot do you recommend (my feet take pretty much everything - in snowboarding one has pretty much no choice in hardboots so me feet got used to a little pain and I don't mind opening up the top two buckles after each run)?

This weekend I tried on the Racetech CS and Nordica Doberman and Hot Rod in a store. The Racetech CS seemed to be the smallest to me with the fewest overhang. However it seemed to be softer than my hardboots for Snowboarding whom I consider not to be very hard. Compared to my 10 year old Tecnicas which don't flex at all and are far too upright in flex I kinda liked them.
The big problem is that I don't know any shop/skifield where I could demo them. Will they get substantially harder in cold temperatures?
What happens when I put in the screw at the back from the lower hole in the the higher hole - that should make them harder, shouldn't it?

The HotRod and the Doberman were quite nice too but I believe they were a bit wider and therefore not so good for deep down carving without very high plates.

I didn't have the chance to thest the Fischer Plug (they only had the Somatec 9000s) which already had practically no overhanging because of their foot stance. They were about the same outer size than the Nordicas but better distributed.
Is the Somatec 9000 Ti smaller from the outside than the normal 9000? Do you think one gets less bootout on a Somatec stance than on a normal one?

O.T. Does anybody know why there are there no super stiff skiing boot shells that are using a springsystem to determine the forward and backward flex stability (and way) like on snowboard hardboots, so its not the shell deformation but the spring that provides for the flex. (this as well means adjustable forward lean)
post #2 of 28
That's a big reason why plates are used on narrower race skis. The increased stand height (distance from the bottom of your boots to the snow) helps avoid booting out. I think you're looking at this problem from the wrong angle. Get the right boot that fits and just use plates to avoid bootout.
post #3 of 28
what noodle said
post #4 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noodler
That's a big reason why plates are used on narrower race skis. The increased stand height (distance from the bottom of your boots to the snow) helps avoid booting out. I think you're looking at this problem from the wrong angle. Get the right boot that fits and just use plates to avoid bootout.
I'm using plates - I am at around 61-64mm standing height - so nearly Fis-legal and I don't really fancy superhigh plates like 6-9cm high.
As said - I don't mind if the boots are a bit uncomfy. My bootfitter will take care of that if it gets really bad. I am just searching the smallest boot from the outer dimensions in 26.5Mondo.
post #5 of 28
I'd like to see video of you booting out with a 60 mm stand height- must be some crazy forces!
post #6 of 28
Flexons are some of the narrower boots out there. When "trenching" started to get popular, Dolomite came out with a boot that had about 20mm of lift built into it.
post #7 of 28
Don't the new Technica Race Pros have a new last that is pretty small to help with boot out?
post #8 of 28
I'm wondering why your having this problem, yet Bode Miller doesn't.

Are you sure your're booting out or is there a dropping of the shoulder that is causing you to lose the edge.
post #9 of 28
Buy a wider ski. 90mm waist skis lay trenches much better than 66mm skis.
post #10 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Highway Star
Buy a wider ski. 90mm waist skis lay trenches much better than 66mm skis.
or narrower, find a pair of Elan Stealths, 40mm waste
post #11 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Highway Star
Buy a wider ski. 90mm waist skis lay trenches much better than 66mm skis.
I like this answer better than mine.
post #12 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Highway Star
Buy a wider ski. 90mm waist skis lay trenches much better than 66mm skis.
Isn't it really dependant upon overall dims, not just the waiste? And don't forget the technique? A ski with dims of 90/90/90 isn't going to carve better than a 115/67/101.....
post #13 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finndog
Isn't it really dependant upon overall dims, not just the waiste? And don't forget the technique? A ski with dims of 90/90/90 isn't going to carve better than a 115/67/101.....
Um yeah, thanks for that brilliant observation.

Point is, if you are booting out there are several ways of preventing that (depending on the cause):

- Narrower boots
- Narrower bindings
- More lift
- A wider ski
- Carve on harder snow instaid of packed powder

I find that 90mm skis with a 20m sidecut will lay super deep trenches. If you bevel them to 1/3 and keep them sharp, they will do it on ice.
post #14 of 28
You are very welcome! The 90 mm comment while certainly gets folks attention needed that qualifier. Interesting comment about the 20 m radius. I just came back from ski school and the instructor, a Aussies Natl member and coach/instructor made a comment that he had no need for skis with less than a 20 meter radius. He prefers GS models but 20 meters is 20 meters. He skis on Dynastar 68's and gets about as low as you can- all with no boot out. His comment was the actual radius of the turn is determined by the force against the ski and the published radius is actually misleading as it is not the limit of the ski.
post #15 of 28
Thread Starter 
Well at the moment I am still on maybe 10 year old Tecnicas (if not older). They do not flex at all and are like 12cm wide (but stand over pretty much only on the inside, not on the outside edge) Coupled with a 66mm ski this is just really bad. But as the ski only boots out on the inside ski (I can then in softer snow see 3 lines (1 from each ski, and one from the shoe toebox of the inside boot/leg) I heavily boot out in them. There is no more color left on the inside - is that enough proof for booting out? It is definitely not about technique - more about ruining my technique cause I fear the boot out all the time and have to distribute more power to the outside ski.

For sure I could buy myself a second ski (like a 80mm 2*Titanal Snowrider or even a 90mm waisted ski) but 1. I don't have the money, and second I need new boots anyhow and 3. this alone would not solve my problem. Iwould still need new boots.

Having a boot that is say only 95mm wide I could stand over only 15mm to each side and that should be enough for ski edge angles up to say 60-65° on hardpack.
I don't really need a raceboot - but I think it is the only way to go as all other boots I have seen are way wider. As well I love a very hard and low-volume fit in order not to have the need to buckle in very hard.

However as said above not all raceboots are equally snug. The dobies for example stand over a bit more on the inside than the Atomics Racetch. The Fischer are even completely even side to side and the best I have seen so far. The consumer 9000 I tried is however way too stiff in the forward flex (IMO according to Fischers top Consumer line motivation "the harder the better - flex is evil")

Skiing is only my second snowsport. I mainly do raceboarding. If I compare the boot overhang from skis to my raceobards it is non-existent (I even grinded my boot sole of a few mm to achieve smaller angles). On soft snow I even set it back some mm from the edge in order not to boot out (about 80° of canting the snowboard against the snow are possible for me. With a skilike 1.5cm overhang I would boot out in every second turn)
post #16 of 28
my diablo race pro, size 28.5 is 11cms wide. should be something like 2mms less for the next smaller shell. inside/outside overhang are close to a 5:6.

i doubt any consumer shell on the market will deliver much slimmer results.
post #17 of 28
The best boot is the one that fits best. So this discussion is irrelevant. I can tell you that the Diablo Race R is pretty narrow in the forefoot but if it does not fit you well, it is not worth it.
post #18 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Capacity
I'm wondering why your having this problem, yet Bode Miller doesn't.
Bode grinds the outside of his boots. That, and wears them 3 sizes small to enhance control. I am not sure he is a suitable comparison.

Never the less, I agree with your point.
post #19 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by extremecarver
I'm using plates - I am at around 61-64mm standing height - so nearly Fis-legal and I don't really fancy superhigh plates like 6-9cm high.
You must really live up to your handle cause any stand height over 60mm is crazy high and yet you're still booting out? I wish you could post some video of this (or at least pictures of the wear on your boots).
post #20 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Capacity
I'm wondering why your having this problem, yet Bode Miller doesn't.
Bode Miller is racing and not extreme carving or bodycarving. The latter isn't really that popular in the states. For those that don't know the difference, look at the picture below and you'll realize the type of bootout extremecarver is talking about.



-T
post #21 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by real9999
Bode Miller is racing and not extreme carving or bodycarving. The latter isn't really that popular in the states. For those that don't know the difference, look at the picture below and you'll realize the type of bootout extremecarver is talking about.



-T
0_0



Europe is a strange, silly place.
post #22 of 28
bode doesn't do soft snow, more like ice rinks. To say he doesn't get over that far is a matter of opinion though.






here you can see even what even ground down plug boots with 55mm gives you.

Of course you can do this to avoid boot out on the inside foot



This is useful to prevent outside foot boot-out

post #23 of 28
the major difference is that Bodes upper body remains upright and horizontal, this actually creates higher levels of resistance and greater forces against the skis- especially on ice and hard-pack. We just had this lesson last week. I letting my hands hit the snow on turns, once I learned to keep the upper body more horizontal, I had more stability, higher G forces resulting in tighter turning.
post #24 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finndog
the major difference is that Bodes upper body remains upright and horizontal, this actually creates higher levels of resistance and greater forces against the skis- especially on ice and hard-pack. We just had this lesson last week. I letting my hands hit the snow on turns, once I learned to keep the upper body more horizontal, I had more stability, higher G forces resulting in tighter turning.
That is correct - and I also use racing technique (this really messed up my snowboarding raceboard technique BTW as too much of breaking in the waist takes away stability if one is on one edge!).
However when trying to bodycarve I directly boot out on my skis because I get most of the pressure on the inside ski - therefore I can't even do it on my boots. Using "race technique with angulating the upper body" I can put 80% of my weight on the outside ski (which has very, very few boot overhang) and thereby not booting out- this is again suboptimal.

I don't want to achieve the same as on a raceboard (www.extremecarving.com) but would like to ride hard on skis too - therefore I search the smalles boot.

and you can see in the pictures that bode is close to a bootout - doing the same turns on a soft slope he would definitely bootout!

Thanks to real999 for the pictures I didn't realize people not understanding my word bodycarving.
post #25 of 28
Great pictures and I bet it hurts like hell if there's any death cookies!
post #26 of 28
It may be a silly question, but when you boot out, is it on the outside or the inside ski? Before i got on Metron B5s, I used to boot out on my inside ski quite often, especially on a slope with a double fall line (when i got into the rhythm and forgot to make a correction). I could only use SL11 on hard pack, and that is the reason I got rid of them and just tune up my B5s more often. On the Metrons I have not booted out even once, be it hard or very soft snow. I LOVE my B5s for that!
post #27 of 28
Thread Starter 
AS said above. I only boot out on my inside ski. Outside works allright.

So if anyone could please post which friggin boots are the smallest. Size Mondopoint 26 or 26.5 (real foot size).

What I could easily acces.
Tecnica Diablo Race, Icon XT
Nordica Dobie WC 130
Atomic Racetech CS (don't really know where to get the Ti)
Salomon Course (the race department one)
Or Fischer 9000 Worldcup (not the consumer one - which is way too hard in the forward flex for what I like)
post #28 of 28
The narrowest in the forefoot is the diablo Race R.

the other plugs might be close. The semi-race boots (Dobie 130, CS, Diablo Race Pro) are not what you're looking for. Their forefoot areas are wider (even if the plastic is thinner)
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