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The "Park & Ride" Epidemic - Page 3

post #61 of 81
There's nothing "wrong" with Park and Ride. However, it is a less efficient way to ski. Michael Rogan was explaining to us this weekend (and I hope I got this right) that a flexing or extending joint had 6 times the power of a static joint. Try an "air turn" with your arm/hand (fully extended vs flexing)or try it with a screwdriver and a screw. You can feel the difference in power. Because of this power, you can also be more precise with your turns and more easily adapt to terrain changes.

The big problem with Park and Ride instructors is that their low level demonstrations (wedge turns and christy turns) also include park and ride. They help to churn out park and ride clones no matter what they are "teaching" because this is how they ski. Fortunately, at lower levels it's much harder to see the difference. Mea Culpa - I did this during an exam drill for a straight run to gliding wedge demo during Pro Jam. It's easy to get lazy when you have extra energy to spend. It's hard to get energy efficient when you need it if you don't practice it to the point where it's automatic no matter what kind of turn you make or where you make it.

Park and Ride is a pay me now vs pay me later thing. You save a small amount of energy by not progressively moving body parts through the turn, then pay a lot more when you make sudden movements at the end of the turn to catch up. You can carve clean arcs doing this on easy terrain, but you lose the ability much quicker as the terrain steepens than when making progressive movements.
post #62 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Peters
Which brings up an interesting question...

Is is possible for a park-and-rider to make a "perfectly" carved turn from initiation through completion through initiation of the next turn? "Perfectly" in this example means nice, smooth, round trenches.

If it is, what's wrong with that?

If it's not, WHY not?
No one has really addressed this so I will. Yes it is quite possible to run clean tracks and in fact 97% of all clean carvers are using movement patterns that are of park and ride origin.

To run clean tracks in park and ride you counter rotate the hip around the inside ski until you have a fair amount of counter. Then hold the inside foot back and use angulation that originates in the hips instead of the feet. To counter this bring the outside hand forward and down. Gorrilla turn style. To change the turn shape, rotate the upper body into the direction of the turn to square the upper body with the skis. This allow more angulation originating from the hips without feeling to far back.

To initiate the new turn swing the pole diagonally in the direction of the turn to help unwind the rotated upper body and relax the outside leg. You will quickly move laterally across the skis and switch edges abruptly like a snowboard turn to park and ride the other direction.

What is wrong with this?

Its a weak position on the inside ski that does not allow for tipping of the ankle and thus no real ability to extend the inside leg to control inclination. This results in park and ride because you have shut down your best method of progressively changing edge angle.

In additon, because this position is weak, g forces are transmitted to the inside knee radially. This puts the inside knee at risk of ACL tear if you get thrown back and to the inside with a good edge on the inside ski.

Young athletic skiers can get away with suprisingly high g loads and short carves using this method.

A stronger position starts with an increase in flexion of both ankles from neutral. The inside foot is tipped to the little toe edge starting from the ankle. As soon as edging begins the inside hip is allow to project forward. The core is tensioned to coordinate pressure on both shins. The outside hand is slowly brought forward and down. This inceases pressure on the outsid shin as pressure builds. It also allows for a perfect match between angulation and inclination as edging begins in the feet. The upper body does nothing and remains nearly square to the direction of travel with little counter. The pole is not swung in the direction of the new turn but flicked a the wrists forward.

You are in a strong position with the inside and outside hip stacked over the line of force. You can easily reduce tipping on the inside ski and extend of flex the inside leg to progressively go back to neutral while considerable force is still being generated in the turn. The result is powerful smooth progressive turn transitions that have no abrupt edge change. You do not have to wait for pressure to fade or switch edges quickly as you have not shut down the inside half.

The difference here is whether the inside hip is over the inside foot or countered behind the inside foot.
post #63 of 81
Hmmm...
... Static positioning vs subtle movements. Does anyone else here see the difference?
Here are some tell tale signs of park and ride syndrome.
Transitions are hard for the park and ride skier because they lack the range of motion needed to do the transition appropriately. The CM stays inclined way too long and forces the skier to rush their transition or to use extra movements just to get back to neutral. Upward releases are just one example of this. Rotary push offs are another. If you cannot return to neutral and linger, you probably are parking. Terrain variations tripping you up? Again this is probably another sign of parking, or posing.

In a beginner we often see it as rigidity, in an advanced skier it is usually one of the symptoms mentioned above. In an instructor it is usually the robotic phase just before the epiphany happens.
post #64 of 81

Park and Ride

Quote D(C): Post 14," Nobody should be allowed to get away with anything incorrect."

I'm a member of the Epic SKi non-expert ski club, and the above quote may be the most arrogant statement I've ever heard from a self appointed expert. Just imagine the gall of a skier relaxing on ski's and just enjoying the day, the feel of the snow underfoot, the fresh air and gorgeous mountain view while cruising a groomer with no traffic. This person has a lot of unmitigatged gall to ski like that. Also those beginner Level I instructors they think they're so good but all they do is ski in a static position all the time, they ought to take a pill or a beer and loosen up. D(C) do you really take yourself so seriously that you actually b elieve what came out of your mouth. The heart surgeon, engineer, cop or other professional doesn't really need your pontification. But don't let anyone get away with doing anything incorrectly. You might start with a few persons who broke the rules and changed the was people skied, start with the Mahres and how about Roberto and Bode. Good Luck I hope you have good medical insurance.
post #65 of 81
Wow! Pete calm down. If it was brain surgery there would be a more serious consequence to an "error". Skiing is a lot of things, to a lot of people but as you pointed out it is supposed to be fun. Posing and getting locked into one position limits a skier's options but if it works for you, use it and have fun.
post #66 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre
No one has really addressed this so I will. Yes it is quite possible to run clean tracks and in fact 97% of all clean carvers are using movement patterns that are of park and ride origin.

To run clean tracks in park and ride you counter rotate the hip around the inside ski until you have a fair amount of counter. Then hold the inside foot back and use angulation that originates in the hips instead of the feet. To counter this bring the outside hand forward and down. Gorrilla turn style. To change the turn shape, rotate the upper body into the direction of the turn to square the upper body with the skis. This allow more angulation originating from the hips without feeling to far back.

To initiate the new turn swing the pole diagonally in the direction of the turn to help unwind the rotated upper body and relax the outside leg. You will quickly move laterally across the skis and switch edges abruptly like a snowboard turn to park and ride the other direction.

What is wrong with this?

Its a weak position on the inside ski that does not allow for tipping of the ankle and thus no real ability to extend the inside leg to control inclination. This results in park and ride because you have shut down your best method of progressively changing edge angle.

In additon, because this position is weak, g forces are transmitted to the inside knee radially. This puts the inside knee at risk of ACL tear if you get thrown back and to the inside with a good edge on the inside ski.

Young athletic skiers can get away with suprisingly high g loads and short carves using this method.

A stronger position starts with an increase in flexion of both ankles from neutral. The inside foot is tipped to the little toe edge starting from the ankle. As soon as edging begins the inside hip is allow to project forward. The core is tensioned to coordinate pressure on both shins. The outside hand is slowly brought forward and down. This inceases pressure on the outsid shin as pressure builds. It also allows for a perfect match between angulation and inclination as edging begins in the feet. The upper body does nothing and remains nearly square to the direction of travel with little counter. The pole is not swung in the direction of the new turn but flicked a the wrists forward.

You are in a strong position with the inside and outside hip stacked over the line of force. You can easily reduce tipping on the inside ski and extend of flex the inside leg to progressively go back to neutral while considerable force is still being generated in the turn. The result is powerful smooth progressive turn transitions that have no abrupt edge change. You do not have to wait for pressure to fade or switch edges quickly as you have not shut down the inside half.

The difference here is whether the inside hip is over the inside foot or countered behind the inside foot.
Pierre:

Thank you for the well-thought response. I appreciate it.

Nevertheless...

I have to say that I just can't seem to figure out whether to listen to what you (and others) are describing or go with what someone who is FIS/NCAA-credentialed, race coach credentialed, PSIA-examiner credentialed (in alpine, tele, skate, and park/pipe), and Alaska heli-guide credentialed is telling me. This guy is demonstrating what seems to be an extremely strong, dynamic, EFFECTIVE way of turning a pair of skis while driving the outside ski and letting the inside do what it may.

With all due respect, I guess I'm going to go with what I can see versus what I'm reading.
post #67 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Peters
Pierre:

Thank you for the well-thought response. I appreciate it.

Nevertheless...

I have to say that I just can't seem to figure out whether to listen to what you (and others) are describing or go with what someone who is FIS/NCAA-credentialed, race coach credentialed, PSIA-examiner credentialed (in alpine, tele, skate, and park/pipe), and Alaska heli-guide credentialed is telling me. This guy is demonstrating what seems to be an extremely strong, dynamic, EFFECTIVE way of turning a pair of skis while driving the outside ski and letting the inside do what it may.

With all due respect, I guess I'm going to go with what I can see versus what I'm reading.
Is it "carving" when the outside ski and only the outside ski is cleanly carving?:
post #68 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost
Is it "carving" when the outside ski and only the outside ski is cleanly carving?:
I think Ingemar Stenmark might have an opinion on that. Anybody know him?
post #69 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre
>To run clean tracks in park and ride you counter rotate the hip around the inside ski until you have a fair amount of counter.

>Then hold the inside foot back and use angulation that originates in the hips instead of the feet.

>To counter this bring the outside hand forward and down. Gorrilla turn style.

>To change the turn shape, rotate the upper body into the direction of the turn to square the upper body with the skis.

>To initiate the new turn swing the pole diagonally in the direction of the turn to help unwind the rotated upper body and relax the outside leg. You will quickly move laterally across the skis and switch edges abruptly

Wow, Pierre, that sounds like a lot of sequential activity. When do we get time to park?

I have a different example of park and ride, one which requires much less movement, and one which most people working "park and ride" patrol would look at and with out hesitation slap the cuffs on the culprit.

>Put your hand in your pockets. Leave em there.

>Set off down the falline on flat skis with feet well apart.

>Tip both shins at the exact same amount till the skis are engaging a moderate edge angle. Amount of lateral knee seperation never changes.

>Ride that edge angle all the way through the turn, keeping everything from the knees up exactly vertical. Angulation happens only at the knees. Nothing above the knees ever moves, not even a blink, totally static, never altering the fore/aft balance point even a hair, and always remaining completely square to the skis.

>To transition into a new turn, simply tip the shins in the other direction. (vauwy simple, vauwy easy)

Much less movement there, almost none as a matter of fact, and a mega amount of time in park.
post #70 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost
Is it "carving" when the outside ski and only the outside ski is cleanly carving?:
Only if you think WC racers carve.
post #71 of 81
post #72 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Peters
Pierre:

Thank you for the well-thought response. I appreciate it.

Nevertheless...

I have to say that I just can't seem to figure out whether to listen to what you (and others) are describing or go with what someone who is FIS/NCAA-credentialed, race coach credentialed, PSIA-examiner credentialed (in alpine, tele, skate, and park/pipe), and Alaska heli-guide credentialed is telling me. This guy is demonstrating what seems to be an extremely strong, dynamic, EFFECTIVE way of turning a pair of skis while driving the outside ski and letting the inside do what it may.

With all due respect, I guess I'm going to go with what I can see versus what I'm reading.
I am describing the movement patterns that will work to do a clean carve at 1/2mph or mac schnell. You are describing the feelings that these movement patterns produce at very dynamic speeds with a lot of pressure. High speeds also provide some rebound to work with so even the transition does not feel like heavy inside ski stuff.

In addition, these things are not totally sequencial but more blended into a smooth movement pattern. I have a hard time doing that smoothly in words.

When I get to cranking, my skiing feels pretty outside foot dominant and my inside foot can get light enough to come off the snow at the fall line. It also feels like I need to drive the outside foot to keep from "rotating the hip backwards around the inside foot to park and ride" and ending up with to much counter. I also have a very active inside leg extension right through transition that feels very outside foot dominant. I also kinda quit feeling the inside ski actively tipping to initiate the new turn on anything that starts to feel real dynamic. I am sure I am tipping it instead of getting lazy but I don't consciously feel it anymore.

If I am working with skiers who are considerably lower level in skill and time on snow to you, then I need to add in movement patterns that may already exist in your skiing. At your level I don't think I would be talking to much about flexing the ankles and tipping the inside foot and how to keep forward.

At your level it may simply be that you are not driving the outside half enough and ending up with a bit to much counter in high speed turns. This would result in having the upper body to low over the outside ski and having the outside edge break loose more often then you like. I think I might be saying the same things to you that your friend is.
post #73 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikewil
Don't suppose you have any old Jet Stiks floating around the ranch? Wonder what other uses they could serve?
YOU, of all people here ask this ? You have never putted across the Living Room floor into a Jet Stick ?
post #74 of 81

Sorry I got carried away there.

One more thing to remember about seeing an Instructor "Park and Ride".

When an Instructor goes out skiing in uniform and tears up the hill and really jams..you can pretty much count on taking a visit to the Ski School Directors office.
post #75 of 81
The first image shows a position that the average bear cannot hang onto including this bear. He is rotated back and inside as you can see from the skis. High turn forces tend to rotate all of us into that position. The difference is a world class athelete is strong enough that they may even intentionally use that postion to leverage the tails for more speed if the situation warrants it. We all need to remember that racers will do anything for more speed and even substitute muscle power for stance to get it. I doubt he is thinking much about PSIA, PMTS or efficiency in that race.

Me, Yah see that knee? ON me there is a gut in that space you see between his knee and his core. I would already be on my ars from interference and turn forces.

Photos fail to capture the dynamics and instead show a momentary snapshot of position. They can misslead many or educate many. It helps to realize that these guys live on a different planet in terms of their athleticism and skill.
post #76 of 81
Uncle Louie said: "You are in a strong position with the inside and outside hip stacked over the line of force. You can easily reduce tipping on the inside ski and extend of flex the inside leg to progressively go back to neutral while considerable force is still being generated in the turn. The result is powerful smooth progressive turn transitions that have no abrupt edge change."

Uncle Louie,

Could you explain the 2nd sentence?

Thanks
post #77 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Louie
One more thing to remember about seeing an Instructor "Park and Ride".

When an Instructor goes out skiing in uniform and tears up the hill and really jams..you can pretty much count on taking a visit to the Ski School Directors office.
Augh you hadda blow it didn't cha. This is all to true at many resorts.

What instructor would you want to take a lesson from. One you see in lively play ripping up the slopes that seems to be having a criminal amount of fun or a robot that isn't stressing anything.

The resort that I am at now is different. They really don't want you in uniform skiing like a robot. They want you to ski playfully and athletically but they also want you to mingle and include guests in your fun. They even want you to hand out the quicky pointers to guests and entice them into the ski school. It works the guests see a major difference at our resort. Its all about fun and the guests want to be include in anything that someone else seems to be having too much fun doing.

Have I startled guests? Yes I have and I have even had one light into me. I give a wide berth and if they are startled by the distance and speed 97% of the time its very poor boot fit that makes them feel they the need more space. I can help them with that. After a sincere appology and a few questions those few are amazed that I have zeroed in on their real problem.

Once in a while an instructor will startle someone who has been hit recently. Again indifference is not an option. A sincere appology and a very wide berth to that skier are in order.

That is the type of response management wants from instructors who occasionally startle a guest while having fun. Indifference and shrug it off is not an option. You must be a strong level II PSIA to free ski in uniform. Since I have been there I have not witnessed an instructor in uniform, free skiing that has actually hit a guest.
post #78 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Louie
One more thing to remember about seeing an Instructor "Park and Ride".

When an Instructor goes out skiing in uniform and tears up the hill and really jams..you can pretty much count on taking a visit to the Ski School Directors office.
A well-wishing fellow instructor (who can really jam himself) just yesterday warned me about that.
post #79 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blizzard
Uncle Louie said: "You are in a strong position with the inside and outside hip stacked over the line of force. You can easily reduce tipping on the inside ski and extend of flex the inside leg to progressively go back to neutral while considerable force is still being generated in the turn. The result is powerful smooth progressive turn transitions that have no abrupt edge change."

Uncle Louie,

Could you explain the 2nd sentence?

Thanks
I wasn't Uncle Louie it was me so I will save UL.

First realize that you have to resist the forces in a turn in you want to hold the arc you are skiing.

If you are more or less standing on the outside ski and have a poor mechanical position on the inside ski you must either continue to resist the forces by standing on the outside ski or relax the outside ski which will result in Cutting the Turn Short.

With a good mechanical position on the inside half, the inside leg can assist in reducing the edge angle while the outside ski remains strong and holding onto the arc. The result is a well finished turn that progressively gets back to neutral.

Does this answer the question?
post #80 of 81
Yes, it does. Sorry about the mix up.

Thank you!
post #81 of 81

Louie, Louie

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Louie
YOU, of all people here ask this ? You have never putted across the Living Room floor into a Jet Stick ?
Actually I use them in pairs to work on the line of my putter. I like a smaller target when practicing.

Jet Sticks and my orginal skis-Yamaha Hi Flexs along with Lange Pro boots-the memories make me teary eyed.
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