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Bump technique for new skis

post #1 of 26
Thread Starter 
hi there.

Someone may have mentioned (either here or in another forum) that a slightly different bump technique is required when riding the newer skis with deep sidecut and fat tails (i.e. metron series, elan magfire 10/8, rossi zenith). With pivot-at-the-top technique, and a bit of a skid around the bump to control speed, it seems like you might hook the wide tails of these boards.

Can anyone elaborate?

Thanks
post #2 of 26
You need to keep the front half of the outside ski's inner edge working on the snow. You do not want the middle of the ski (and NEVER the tail) the part of the ski that is engaging the snow. The only time you have control is when the front part of the inner edge is cutting into the snow.

So, as you're passing over the crest of the bump, pull your feet behind you so your center of mass feels like it is diving down the hill. It really isn't, but that is what it takes to get those tips working on the snow.

And feet together always in bumps
http://www.olympic.org/uk/utilities/... MediaType=pic


Ken
post #3 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoftSnowGuy
.....And feet together always in bumps.....
Ken, we must be the only ones here at epic calling for feet together. Not allways offcourse but especially in bumps. At least if you want to do it very very efficiently and faast. I myselfe have them maybe a fist apart but nowadays with 40+ and a bad back I need to take it easy.

Anyway, my style of skiing bumps consists of staying centered over the skis with a very strong under boot contact with the snow. With the new skis (havent skied Metrons but all sorts of slalom and race carvers) I have had almost no adjustments to make to my technique. I let my leggs do lots of work by flexing over bumps and extending inbetween the bumps. At the beginning of the flexion part my leggs do a lot of work while I crash through the snopiled hillside slopes of the mogul. After that I fly in the air or skidd with a very soft touch under ski. One problem with the wide tailed skis arrise when skiers apply to much pressure during the stearing phase since the heavily shaped sidecutts wants to stear themselves. This is bad since you need to ski according to the terrain and not the skis sidecut. The other problem is that the tails dont fit inbetween the moguls. This is solved by skiing the moguls the other way arround like I do. Sounds confusing but you want to stay out of the fast lane. The tracks are so narrow big tailed and showeled skiis simply dont fit. Hit the big piled heap of snow head on.
post #4 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoftSnowGuy
You need to keep the front half of the outside ski's inner edge working on the snow. You do not want the middle of the ski (and NEVER the tail) the part of the ski that is engaging the snow. The only time you have control is when the front part of the inner edge is cutting into the snow.

So, as you're passing over the crest of the bump, pull your feet behind you so your center of mass feels like it is diving down the hill. It really isn't, but that is what it takes to get those tips working on the snow.

And feet together always in bumps
http://www.olympic.org/uk/utilities/multimedia/gallery/results_uk.asp?entid=76&LinkName=FREESTYLE+SKIING& MediaType=pic


Ken
Thanks for the link ! I've just re-watched the '92 olympic run of Grospiron in Tignes. You can't see me, but I was there, on the side of the run, under the heavy snow fall. At that time Edgard was the man , my hero ! What a hell of skier he was.
post #5 of 26
The reason for the feet together in bumps is because you have points knocked off for air showing between your legs in competition. Its not the most efficient or the best way to ski bumps. Competition bump technique does not translate like competition ski racing down to the masses because of the way the competitions are judged. Feet together for recreational skiers is an unfortunate consequence of mogul comp judging.
post #6 of 26
Yeah, I agree. It is true that you generally want your feet closer than when skiing groomers or powder -- but certainly not locked together ala 70s hot dog style. This is simply because you want your skis to follow more or less the same trajectory and this is obviously more difficult if your skis are wide apart. But they still need to move indpeendently and a wider stance still gives you mucch greater balance and ability to reorient quickly. I'd venture that this is especially true with very shapely skis as locked together they are going to be hooking into each other literally right and left.

BTW, I'd never profess to be the greatest bump skier in the world, so take w/ a grain of salt, but I do enjoy skiing bumps in my 11m SLs. Clearly with all shaped skis you want to ski an S-line not a Z-line (much more elegant anyway, I think and a *lot* better on your knees.) And to sort of agree w/ SnowGuy you really need to get those front tips engaged. Think of guiding the front of your skis down the back side of the bump with your ankles while maintaining forward momentum.

But you still won't be carving the whole turn. As always, you can use the turn transition as a time to pivot the skis to get a new line. And you can still slide sideways down the back side of the bump..note that this is possible here because the middle of the ski is at the high point of the bump and so the back of the ski won't be engaged. (Hey, I'm making this up as I go along if thats not already obvious.) At this point you want your skis to be flat to the snow, which means that your knees are pointed down hill relative to the rest of your body.

So I guess the basic point is that even w/ very shpaed skis you still need to be able to turn them flat. A few drills that really helped with this -- actually they have helped my skiing enormously in general. 1. falling leaf (if I'm remembering correctly) where you keep your direction exactly the same but turn your skis back and forth across the mountain and 2. doing 360s on the snow w/o using your poles. Both require your skis to be flat on the snow to work properly. With all of the emphasis on carving we forget that we need these things.
post #7 of 26
I think it's a good idea to at least try to engage the edges of the skis a bit at the top of each turn. Especially if the bumps are hard. This does require more pressure on the front of the skis. If I need to pivot on the top of a bump, it's usually because I f-d up the previous turn and am off balance.
post #8 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by MilesB
If I need to pivot on the top of a bump, it's usually because I f-d up the previous turn and am off balance.
Your hill must not have snowboarders.

Seriously, while it may not be ideal, I think this is still key to learning how to ski bumps for one reason...speed control. Note - I am *not* talking about skidding here; your skis are flat, not fighting against the slope in a despertate attempt to scrub speed -- I am talking about controlling turn shape. Until a skier can feel confident that he or she can control the direction and shape of the turn reliably he or she will always end up bailing. Once you have that then you can look at doing a more complelety carved turn. But there are always going to be be places where things are off line and a little pivot is handy.
post #9 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by 800lbgorilla
hi there.

Someone may have mentioned (either here or in another forum) that a slightly different bump technique is required when riding the newer skis with deep sidecut and fat tails (i.e. metron series, elan magfire 10/8, rossi zenith). With pivot-at-the-top technique, and a bit of a skid around the bump to control speed, it seems like you might hook the wide tails of these boards.

Can anyone elaborate?

Thanks
So far, all the responses have been generic "how to ski bumps" replies. Whether I agree with the responses or not is not material. But to answer your question, no, I don't think you should ski them differently with wider skis, except that you want to keep your feet slightly further apart to make sure you aren't banging your skis together a lot. If the tip of one gets on top of the other, it could potentially cause problems.

Also, for the same reason, make sure you actively guide the inside ski along with the outside ski so that they stay parallel throught the turn. If you finish a turn strongly with the outside (downhill) ski, but don't do the same with the inside ski, you'll end up in stemming the skis and possibly crossing them if the outside, turning ski gets hooked up on the next bump for a split second. If that happens, your uphill ski, which is pointed downhill, will go where it's pointed, while your downhill ski gets shoved underneath the other ski and you'll end up sliding face first down the hill.

Both of these are normal skiing technique, but should be a bit more of a focus in the bumps.
post #10 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnH
So far, all the responses have been generic "how to ski bumps" replies.
Not so!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnH
..I don't think you should ski them differently with wider skis..If that happens, your uphill ski, which is pointed downhill, will go where it's pointed, while your downhill ski gets shoved underneath the other ski and you'll end up sliding face first down the hill.
I think perhaps we are talking mroe about shapeliness than simply width. And in the case of a mroe shaped ski, I think definetly a more S-shaped turn is appropriate and possible, just as the more shapely skis allow you to do a carved turn at slower speeds and tighter radius than less shaped skis. Despite what I said above, I would say that is mroe of the ideal, still you (well, most of us anyway) are not going to be doing railroad trackes down the bumps.

On the second point definetly. Anotehr drill is tracer turns or one ski off the snow entirely. This forces you to learn how to turn on the outside edge so that you don't get the crossing problem you are refering to.
post #11 of 26
Going back to the original question, you might want to look at John Clendenin approach. His WEB site is www.skidoctors.com.
He also has a series of articles on the subject published on the www.realskiers.com (subscription required) WEB site.
post #12 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodro
Not so!
Oh, well maybe I missed something. My bad.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodro
I think perhaps we are talking mroe about shapeliness than simply width. And in the case of a mroe shaped ski, I think definetly a more S-shaped turn is appropriate and possible, just as the more shapely skis allow you to do a carved turn at slower speeds and tighter radius than less shaped skis. Despite what I said above, I would say that is mroe of the ideal, still you (well, most of us anyway) are not going to be doing railroad trackes down the bumps.

On the second point definetly. Anotehr drill is tracer turns or one ski off the snow entirely. This forces you to learn how to turn on the outside edge so that you don't get the crossing problem you are refering to.
I guess that's probably true. With straight skis, most people just pointed them down the hill and slapped their way down the zipper line. With skis that actually have some discernable sidecut, it's easier to deviate from the fall line and ski the bumps with round turns. But having said that, many of us, when straight skis were still the norm, made round turns in the bumps. But the round turns required more skidding to make the same radius turns. So now, you can edge the ski more, skid less, move in a forward direction, and actually ski with more speed out of the fall line and have more control.
post #13 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnH
So now, you can edge the ski more, skid less, move in a forward direction, and actually ski with more speed out of the fall line and have more control.
Bizactly. I guess there ius a tradeoff -- on the onehand you can make much nicer smoorther turns, OTO you need to be more on top of things..and I suppose this all means that bump turns are now more like 'normal' groomed turns and so as otehrs have pointed out sharpening basic groomed snow techniques will more directly translate to better bump skiing and vis. versa. ...?
post #14 of 26
Quote:
The reason for the feet together in bumps is because you have points knocked off for air showing between your legs in competition. Its not the most efficient or the best way to ski bumps.
I always ski with my feet together in bumps because it's easier when both skis are experiencing the same contours. It's more efficient to ski that way, instead of having one foot on the crest and the other foot in the trough.

The original post does bring up a good point about newer skis, though. I enjoy the shape of my Fischer RX8's on the groomed, but in the bumps (with my feet together technique) I feel as though I could be skiing better. I've been experimenting with la lane change type of thing where I zipper line a few bumps, open up to a GS style turn, then drop in to another zipper line. I don't know what the "wave of the future" will be for bump skiing. GS turns through bumps? Smooth Turns like on a normal groomed run? Or a return of the zipper line (and a - gasp - reduction in the amount of sidecut for skis)?
post #15 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by 800lbgorilla
Someone may have mentioned ... that a slightly different bump technique is required when riding the newer skis with deep sidecut and fat tails ... . With pivot-at-the-top technique, and a bit of a skid around the bump to control speed, it seems like you might hook the wide tails of these boards.
I don't think a 'different technique' is actually required. More like desired. Modern skies are not only more shapely, they're generally softer, shorter and far more torsionally rigid than their older counterparts. They're great for bump skiing.

Skiing bumps with skidded, twisty turns where we mostly pivot on top of bumps using the base of the skis, then use skidding to control speed doesn't make any real use of new-ski attributes mentioned above.

I'd agree we need slightly more distance between our boots to accommodate a wider tip & tail but not very much. I too like both my skis to be working the same approximate surface. Too far apart and one ski is going up while the other is going down...

If the tails of these shorter modern skis are poking/snagging the bump behind us we're probably pivoting too quickly from a bump-side or perhaps a trough location. If ski-tail-edges are 'edging-into' the bump we're on (as we leave it) our CM is likely further back than desired, or possibly, we haven't continued to turn the ski far enough before the ski-tip encounters real support.

When we leave one bump toward another the ski-tip climbs up the new bump before the tail leaves the old bump - partially suspending our foot between tip & tail. This allows the pair of bumps to gain massive leverage on the ends of our ski and prevents further pivoting of the ski. The ski's rotation 'stalls' until the tail is dislodged from the old bump. Whether we are pivoting the ski more from the front (desired), the toe of the foot (OK) or pushing out our heels (undesired) we still sense this hinderance in the tail.

A better way to use shaped skis in the bumps is as SoftSnowGuy describes above and as Pierre has described in the past - more (tip) scarving, less skidding. With the skis moving far more forward than sideways, we make maximum use of a modern ski's properties and minimize any tail-trapping situations.

mattchuck2 - 'Medium Radius Turns through the Bumps' is one of the L3 Cert Tasks here in the PNW. Pretty fun(ny) too. Cert Prep groups should make videos. We could raise a lot of divisional dollars on 'em.

.ma
post #16 of 26
There really are two schools of thought out there on moguls.

The first is traditional as its been handed down from competition moguls skiing. It's holy grail is the zipperline and is based around a very narrow stance and mostly pivoting type turns. The upper body faces squarely down the fall line. When toned down to less than the mogul tops without the abundance of air in between the results are some counter rotation or some fore/aft split between the skis and some tail push. There is rather large need for flexion and absorbtion. Balance is enhanced with a good blocking pole plant that is levered forward with the pole rhythm more like walking down stairs. Speed control is primarily by checking edges or smearing the turn.

If your idea of mogul skiing is what you see on TV in the competitions and you have very young knees, then by all means the feeling of this type of skiing is a big thrill.

The second method has little resemblance to competition moguls skiing and more in common with recreational groomed skiing. The stance width is very close to the same as used on groomed snow. The ski tips are kept nearly equal and the skier although facing down hill follows the skis a bit more. There is a light pole touch that is similar to walking down stairs except the pole is intentionally carried a bit past the fall line you are crossing to aid in completion of the turn. The skis are (waist steered) or (Steered like a bulldozer) around the bumps about half way between the tops and the bottom of the troughs. This method requires failry good alignment as skis must track evenly in short radius. This method is enhanced with the bindings in a forward position on the skis for multi position bindings. Much of the traditional flexion and absorbtion is done away with as the line is half way up the bumps. The line may be in the zipperline corridor or around the bumps. Speed control is primarily by even scarving and by intentionally having patience in the top third of every turn. These turns are quite round with the tails following the tips.

With this method nearly all pounding ceases and this method works with all types of bumps even those of solid unadultered ice andthose bumps with no back side. This method is much prefered by people who are non athletic. My mogul clinics are set up around this method.

Most clinicians are teaching a combination of elements of both types in the same lesson. The result is a narrow stance that is a bit rounder and smeared but depends on very slow speeds to reduce pounding.

I hope this helps to clear things up a bit as to why some advocate one way or another. I realize its not a total "how to".
post #17 of 26
Thanks, Pierre. That's a very helpful breakdown.

"Somebody buy that man a drink!"
post #18 of 26
Pierre - I found this image that supports your thesis about recreational bump skiing that resembles skiing on groomed terrain. Most of the principles of good technique apply whether bumpy or smooth, even with shaped skis. I hope this image isn't too small to see meaningful details. This was shot on a medium/steep pitch with large round bumps.
525x525px-LL-vbattach397.jpg
post #19 of 26

Bumps on new skis

Just Go Do It !!
post #20 of 26
In the 7th image from the right in that photo, the guy seems to be leaning way forward. Whenever I get in that position, I'm always thinking that I must look like a beginner skier. But maybe it's necessary at that point in time in order to avoid ending up in the backseat. No?
525x525px-LL-vbattach402.jpg
post #21 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre
There really are two schools of thought out there on moguls...
You know, that's the problem with this board. As soon as you same something, someone jumps into the conversation who actually knows what they are talking about.
post #22 of 26
Quote:
I always ski with my feet together in bumps because it's easier when both skis are experiencing the same contours. It's more efficient to ski that way, instead of having one foot on the crest and the other foot in the trough.
Exactly!

There are a few mogul specialty skis available, K2 CaBRAWLER for example, and they don't have much shape. Above I didn't mean that we should emulate competition freestyle skiers, but that they do have their feet together for more than just points. The skier in the .jpg images has his feet close together. In shots 7-8-9 and 14-15 he seems to be pulling his feet back under his center of mass. In shots 4-5-6 and 10-11-12 he seems to be carving, not skidding. No pivoting on the crest of the bump for this guy. Solid pole plant and hands comfortably in front is just good, basic ski form.


Ken
post #23 of 26
the SSD at Winter Park/Mary Jane is a former PSIA demo team member and current PSIA examiner. For those who do not know him he is "the other" Bob Barnes or Barney.

He teaches a very, very simple and effective manner to ski bumps and one that is different than anything mentioned here.

In essence, bumps are approached on a very flat "pivoty" ski. the upper body remains still/quiet. for psia members it is nothing more than a pivot slip in bumps. his mantra is that if you get in trouble......skid. there is very little "edging" and the bias is towards rotary movements. certainly no waiststeering. the tactic is to ski the buddy bump. that gets a little complicated and is best shown as opposed to described online.....or at least i don't have the time to explain now......gotta go teach.

he runs a very popular camp in february called Bob's Bump Camp

http://www.skiwinterpark.com/rentals...nics/index.htm

if anyone would like to improve their bump skiing i heartily suggest you look into this or come to the home of Americas #1 bumps at Mary Jane and take a lesson from a level III pro who specializes in bumps.
post #24 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by moguljunkie
In the 7th image from the right in that photo, the guy seems to be leaning way forward. Whenever I get in that position, I'm always thinking that I must look like a beginner skier. But maybe it's necessary at that point in time in order to avoid ending up in the backseat. No?
Nah, you are seeing good absorbtion at the top of the bump. I wish all bumps were that wide spaced!
post #25 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by 800lbgorilla
hi there.

Someone may have mentioned (either here or in another forum) that a slightly different bump technique is required when riding the newer skis with deep sidecut and fat tails (i.e. metron series, elan magfire 10/8, rossi zenith). With pivot-at-the-top technique, and a bit of a skid around the bump to control speed, it seems like you might hook the wide tails of these boards.

Can anyone elaborate?

Thanks
Well, having spent all last winter on MB5's, I would just say that the newest generation of skis don't require or deny any technique, but I do think they give us more options on tactics and "turn styles" in the bumps.

As Rusty Guy said, the pivot slip is still available and easily doable in the bumps on these skis. I teach pivots slips alot in bump lessons, along with a whole range of tactics ect. It all works, and is quite often nessasary in any given bump run. A good skier should be able to skid a few and then ski into some more modern reaching turns when the bumps suit this, and then go back to some pivoted turns as the terrain/bumps and troughs tighten up and deepen.

Don't allow yourself to be pushed into a one style or bump technique by the terrain, an instructor, or a ski. Versatility will set us free. And I think that the latest generation of skis are the most versatile I have ever been on. Especially the Mentron seires. Later, RicB.
post #26 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by RicB
Don't allow yourself to be pushed into a one style or bump technique by the terrain, an instructor, or a ski. Versatility will set us free. And I think that the latest generation of skis are the most versatile I have ever been on. Especially the Mentron seires. Later, RicB.
very, very well said. there are a myriad of ways to skin the proverbial cat. in addition, i skied a little recently with one of our top instructors who looked amazing in bumps on a metron.

my favorite is a hot rod top fuel.

it ain't the arrow.....it's the injun
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