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Boot story and help needed...plus a couple complaints!!!

post #1 of 23
Thread Starter 

I am going to tell my boot story and then ask some questions...any one with that gives quality input will be thanked...so here it goes:

I skied in a pair of Lange XR9's for several seasons...size 11...they were comfortable and never hurt my feet as long as I kept my toe nails short due to a little bit of "toe bang" from big jumps (probably due to a boot too big for me)...this year comes along and I order a pair of Lange Comp 120's in 10.5...boots feel snug and begin giving me a ton of pain on the bone that runs along the outside of my foot....so I go to a boot fitter and he molds me new footbeds since my old ones were never properly posted...he also punches out the left boot a little for my pinky toe that rides on top of the toe next to it....so I go home (8 hours away) and try the boots out...I am getting a ton of pain in my arch now.

I go into the shop and bam....he shell fits me and they are 2 sizes to big (I wear an 11 sneaker)...so he ends up putting me into a Tecnica Diablo Flame (alot softer boot I know...not sure about this one yet)...the new boot is 26.5...now...he wants me to ski a couple days on them before he trims my new footbeds(from the Langes) and puts them in the boot....I must say....there is alot of pressure on my big toe...but none of my other toes (at least length wise)...

I am getting numbness in my foot (in the "pad" right behind your toes...on the pinky side)...first question....how long does it take to wear in new boots that are uncomfortable? When will they get comfortable? I am also getting a little pain in the center of my foot along my arch...length wise...

Is this boot going to be too soft for freeriding and jibbing?

How tight are you suppose to put your buckles? A little less than what would cut of your circulation?

I must say that I hate this whole boot fitting thing and breaking in new boots...it just plain sucks....why all the pain when my old to big boots did not give me trouble? Not to mention I had to have 3 pairs of skis remounted...and yes I wear an ultra light sock.

I have 3 or 4 more days of skiing before my trip out west...will they be better by then? Should I wear them around the house? I have been advised to put them on with HOT wet socks and wear them around the house...then repeat after the socks chill....is this as dumb as it sounds?

How long are you suppose to wear a boot before you heat mold it? What will heat molding a very snug boot (length wise) do for you?

Lastly I am a little irritated that the boot fitter that made my footbeds...well the first set...they never posted them...got lazy....the second set...why the hell are these people not telling me my boots are to big before they take my 100-150 bucks?

I have a very rigid, narrow foot....is this what is making this process so hard?

This process has really made me mad...now I am trying to sell the Lange's that I have used like one and a half times....hopefully I can get like 250 for them and not lose a TON of money...I think that is all for now....hopefully I can get some help/sympathy...I know this is a lesson in life that all skiers must learn...but it still sucks...is there any hope that these boots will fit?

Last bit of info...my toe just reached the 27.5 mark on the Nordica measuring tool.
post #2 of 23
A toe 'reaching' a point on a measuring tool may well have something to do with weight bearing without a footbed. If weight bearing is significantly different then non weight than this is a good indication of the need for footbeds.

A rigid foot may give pain with too much arch support and this sort of foot should get more correction at the heel. Have someone perform a windlass test.

Buckles should be tight enough that boot is snug. You are probably used to cranking buckles to make up for a massive boot. A snug fitting boot may need the buckles just tight enough for them to give a solid thump down when you push it far enough.

A lot of the pressure on the toe may be from the liner and you may need to stretch that. There have been threads on that and they have been ressurected quite recently so should be easy to find. TRUST the shell fit, nothing else is significant but may need some work.

Perhaps you can take the Lange back as any decent shop should recognize the mistake in sizing.
post #3 of 23
Thread Starter 
Well first off thanks for replying to my long ass post...I made the stupid mistake of buying the boots online...never again!!! As far as the weighted foot thing....yes my foot does "grow" as I put weight on it...the shell fit is right with these new boots...when I stand on a flat floor in bare feet.....

right foot: all weight pretty much distributed between my heel and right behind my big toe....i have to kind of "flatten" out my toes and push down to get pressure on the outside-bottom of my foot (behind my pinky and toe next to it)...kind of like my foot is tilted to the inside....I do get very SLIGHTlY more wear on the inside of that shoe...however I get more wear overall on my left shoe bottom

left foot: more even distribution of wieght across the front "pad" behind the toes..with a little bit of wieght right next to the front of my arch ( i do not have collapsed arches or anything but a little flatter left foot)...i also get a little more wear on the inside of this shoe as well with alot more wear over all on this shoe...maybe I drag it??

as for my toes..they are normal except the right pinky sits on top of the toe next to it and left pinky does the same thing except to a 50% less extreme

I worry about telling the boot fitter to much before I go out a get some skiing in and then I can tell wear the pain is...I fear over analysis and to many boot modifications...

one other thing...how come boot fitters don't look at the way a persons shoes have worn? And when I go they never seem to pay attention to canting my boots...I guess I stand up straight through the leg???

Thanks a mill...and I have read ALL of the boot fitting threads on here that I could find
post #4 of 23
Thread Starter 
L7 I was reading one of your other threads and came across this:

"You could be over supported or you could have a very rigid midfoot. Do a winlass test to see how much mobility you have in your midfoot. If you are rigid midfoot it can often work better to get the needed support/correction at the heel and leave the midfoot with little to no support."

These are your words...it is funny but now that I think about it...my non posted footbed gave very little to no arch support and I did not get that pain...the new footbeds (although they do have a heel lift) do give that pain....I also felt it in the stock footbeds of the new boots...I do have a very ridig foot and it is the same pain as "standing on a ladder all day" whcich I have done many times...I think I will bring this up...now if I could just figure out the numbness on the outside corner of my feet....both of them...right behind the pinky something is not getting blood...I wonder if it is pressure from my screwed up pinky toes?

Man all this makes for a shit ton of appreciation for a good boot fitter...if I don't get this fixed...where is the BEST place to go in Breckenridge to get boot work done and WHO should I ask for??

post #5 of 23
I wrote similar comments about support at the heel and rigid midfoot in my first reply to you. A heel lift is not the same thing as I am talking about. You can still pronate with a rigid mid foot and therefore still benefit from support or correction you just have to go about it a little differently.

Good chance your toes are going numb from muscles spasming and cutting blood flow due to dealing with too much or too little support.

Cuff alignment should be done on your boots and a boot fitter making footbeds should be doing it since he has now fundamentally changed your alignment.

I personally don't pay that much attention to shoes since lots of things cause funky stuff like, not tying them, dragging your heels or your toe. You aren't walking in ski boots anyways so it's only slightly relevant as opposed to checking wear on a running while selecting a new running shoe.
post #6 of 23
Thread Starter 
If my bootfitter needs a little "guidence" how should I suggest going about arch support for someone with my type of foot?

Also, I was looking at my foot and I have a tendon that protrudes just inside my arch when I lift my toes and it generally seems to sit right next to the skin....when my foot beds were made I was sitting...not standing....something I never understood since my feet change once there is pressure on them...can you answer why bootfitters mold footbeds in this manner and what kind of problems it can cause? Is it possible that there is pressure being put on this tendon that runds the length of my foot (in the place I am getting pain) that is causing problems and how should I go about fixing with a bootfitter? After all a bootfitter is only as good as the feedback that the skier gives them right?

Thanks as always
post #7 of 23
i would think a good boot fitter will ask the questions and will pretty much ignore what you are saying at first..after he finds a good boot to your foot size he would take custom footbed "which should have been formed to foot in a standing neutral position" and trim to your new boot...he would adjust cant and you prob should wear for 7 to 10 ski days and as for as much time as possible arround house to break in liners..at this piont go back and work on hot spots then go back to skiing for a few times and return for any other fit issues
post #8 of 23
What you are looking for with the windlass test is the arch noticably rising when you lift the toes. The protrusion of the tendon is not unusual but no movement in the arch when you do this indicates a rigid midfoot.

Different footbed systems take the mold in different ways; weighted, unweighted, or semi weighted. It may be you had a superfeet system which to me is a little difficult to get the correction from the heel. Not impossible but the guy doing really has to know what he is doing. It may also be a little easier to over support a rigid foot leading to some of the problems you are having.

As to 'guidance', ask him to perform a Windlass test and discuss with him (or her) the implications of the test results and how to accomodate this in the footbed. Share your current experiences with arch pain and make it clear you want to be free of that and ask about getting support in the heel to do that.

The Amfit/Surefoot system can work very well as a wedge can be used at the heel which will be formed right into the bed and change the shape of the arch for the scan being done. The scan should be done semi weighted with the operator manipulating your foot into a neutral position. This system still needs a good operator but for your needs it may offer the easiest options to meet your needs.
post #9 of 23
Thread Starter 
Well I appreciate the help...I spent about 3 hours with the bootfitter today trying to work on things and I am still not completely satisfied...he seemed to have no answers for me about the arch problem...I had to sit and think it through my self in order to come up with a solution....whether it will work long term who knows but it seemed to help....until it fell off of course....I had him put a pad right behind my toes that the "pad" of my foot would sit on...this took the arch pain away when I skiied, but after I put the boot on a couple times it just came off....he is trying to figure out something this week...me I am totally pissed off and have had zero skiing fun this season...when I lift my toe my arch does not move other than that tendon showing...that tendon is right where I am getting my pain...the problem with that pad is that I am not really getting any arch support and my toe box has become increasingly cramped...I really do not know what else to do...I have a heel lift in and it still hurts....just a major pain down my arch

Any suggestions before I take up snowboarding???

I am at a complete loss...the boots are nice and snug with good toe pressure...I asked him again and he said I don't need any canting adjustments...he said Iwould know it if I did...so I think I am good there.

He solved the numb toes just not the arch pain....pleeeeeaaaase help my!!!:
post #10 of 23
Thread Starter 
Skidbump....as far as skiing on them....the pain is so bad that I can't get more than a couple runs in before my skiing goes to shit
post #11 of 23
The heel lift is still not the same as the support I am talking about at the heel. I am refering to medial posting /support /pad to keep the calcaneous from rolling is which is likely where your pronation is apparent since you sound to have a rigid mid foot.

The pad under the metatarsals is a bandaid and it works because it lifts your foot up off of the excessive arch support. You are better to work at the excessive support.

Does the footbed hurt just standing on it outside of the boot? If not likely it is the boot pressing it in from the sides which pushes it up higher than you can bear or it should be. Simply grinding off the sides of the footbed in the middle so the mid portion fits into the boot snuggly but not with any pinching may help a lot or fix it entirely.

If it hurts standing on it even out of the boot then what you want to do is grind material from underneath the footbed to 'soften' it. You can take enough material away until it actually has quite a bit of give and no longer pushes from underneath your arch.

With the medial posting at the heel if you grind the bottom of the footbed on the LATERAL side at the heel you will achieve some medial posting and getting this correction /support under the heel may also relieve some of the pressure on your arch.

If you don't understand any of this please ask again. You seem to miss some important points of what I write and get off track as a result. You are likely much closer to this being fixed up then you think.

A combination of these things may well be the answer to rid you of the pressure/pain, as in a bit of each.
post #12 of 23
Thread Starter 
I think you are onto my problem...I sent your post to my bootfitter since he is on these forums...I however do not know what you mean about the whole medial posting...I thought you ment a heel lift UNDER the foot beds....are you refering to something on TOP of the foot beds??? Something to lift my heel or am I totally missing what you mean? The bottom of my food bed was filled in so it sits flat...this is what I thought people refered to when the say posting...it is great that you are helping me though....thanks
post #13 of 23
Thread Starter 
oooh I forgot to say something...the stock foot beds give me that pain when I stand in just my liners...my bootfitter has me molded beds though so i cannot tell you right now....what I do know is that my arch is higher when there is no pressure on it then it gets closer to the ground (slightly) as I stand...maybe becuase the foot beds were molded using a semi-weighted method? and my old ones (that are trashed now) were molded in a weighted method...
post #14 of 23
Yes you are missing what I mean by medial posting but your bootfitter should get it. Medial means the inside or the foot or 'towards centre line of the body'.
Posting does refer to filling in underneath but more accurately supporting the footbed. Medial posing at the heel is refering to supporting UNDER the heel to the inside of the foot.

Your bootfitter should have some heel wedges. Since it sounds like your mid foot doesn't collapse much when you stand barefoot there should be a noticable bowing of the achilles tendon indicating your pronation. This is a result of the calcaneous bone tipping inward (everting). By putting a wedge under the heel on the medial side you (your bootfitter) should see some staightening of the achilles tendon. This is what you want to do with the foot bed. Get the support at the heel to minimize the amount needed at the midfoot as a rigid midfoot will not tolerate much support very well. So a simple medial WEDGE under the heel or simpler yet just grind material away from the LATERAL side of the heel of the footbed for the same effect.
post #15 of 23
Thread Starter 
NOW I know what you mean...sorry about that...like I said I forwarded your message to the guy that sold me the boots and he said he did not want to lead me in wrong direction...I guess he is still learning how to be a "problem solving" bootfitter and his main knowledge is in the area of shell fitting, molding liner, molding footbeds, and just helping customers actually buy the boots...once you said wedge and what not I knew what you meant...I am not familiar with the parts of the foot and probably should have told you as much...this would explain my being lost in all the terms...

I thought I heard somewhere about a registration of bootfitters...is there an online list that I could search to find a "certified" bootfitter in the Pittsburgh area? I will try the wedge thing...

I was not sure what you mean by "pronation" so I looked it up:

rotation of the medial bones in the midtarsal region of the foot inward and downward so that in walking the foot tends to come down on its inner margin

Makes sense in a sentence I guess...will I need any canting adjustment if you put a wedge under my inside heal? Won't I stand crooked> (This my be a REALLY dumb question)
post #16 of 23
That's sort of a narrow definition of pronation as it doesn't really occur at just the midtarsal region. In fact with a rigid mid foot little of that would be apparent although it is still occuring. So all you are trying to do is get rid of the pronation to take you to a neutral postion. Then you should adjust the upper cuff of your boot to align with your leg. THEN and only then should you consider canting IF it is necessary. The point of this is to make you stand straighter or less crooked as that is likely your current state to some degree or another.

The only lists of bootfitters I know is on this site or America's Best Bootfitters site which is simply a list of bootfitters that have trained with them.

BTW I guess I assumed by the time you are getting custom footbeds made then you would know about pronation and in fact I thought your bootfitter might have explained it to you.
post #17 of 23
Thread Starter 
Man....L7...you know alot about this stuff...could you clearify the difference between adjusting my cuff to align with my leg and canting?

I thought that is why you adjusted the canting to align the boot cuff with the leg so that the boot sits flat on the ground....thanks
post #18 of 23
Cuff alignment is just that, aligning the upper cuff to the leg. It is often refered to as canting but is not really canting but generally that is accepted to refer to the cuff alignment. I wasn't sure which you were referring to.

True canting is either shaving off the bottom of the boot on one side or building up underneath one side of the binding to acheive an angle on the outside of the boot. (Some people will play with the foot inside the boot but I believe getting the foot neutral is all you should be doing here. ) True canting should ONLY be done AFTER the foot is supported in neutral and the cuff has been aligned to the leg.

Like I said reference is often made to the adjustment on the side of the boot as cant. This is not strictly correct but is generally or quite widely accepted.
post #19 of 23
Thread Starter 
I see...so those different heal and toe pieces you can get from Lange for thier boots would be "true" canting as apposed to cuff alignement...thank you for all the help....I will try the things that you suggested and hopefully next Sunday I will be telling you all is well and you are my hero...till then...best wishes...and think snow
post #20 of 23
Thread Starter 
I have been experimenting with some boot wedges that I had from an old pair of boots and I think this is going to work as long as it does not create pain on the outside of my foot....how much height should I be looking at as far as inside vs. outside?

Also if I have a normal stance that does not require cuff alignment...which way will the cuffs need to go? Outside up giving the cuff a lean to the inside? or opposite of this???

Thanks again
post #21 of 23
The thickness of any heel wedge depends on how much it takes to staighten out the achilles. Obviously you need someone to help you with this since when you try to look you will cause changes. It will be best to play with the wedge under the current footbed to get a feel for alignment and how it feels on the arch.

There is no normal per se for your leg more of a 'normal range'. You want to align the upper cuff to come up your leg leaving the same gap between shell and leg on either side. This will vary with curvature of the tibia, muscle development and balance and other factors. Again you will need help to do this.
post #22 of 23
Thread Starter 
That makes sense to me...my achilles kind of curves in toward the inside of my foot...I take it that this is what you would expect for someone with my described problem???? I can only tell by feel (with my hand) as I do not have a mirror or someone that I can ask (I really should be working right now) I am going to go into see the guy that sold me the boots armed with this knowledge and will be able to tell him what he needs to do to fix the problem that he could not solve....I will be graceful though....I might need him for something in the future
post #23 of 23
Thread Starter 
Well L7 the heel wedge worked great.....it took away my arch pain....however...the Diablo Flames are a size to small....after skiing about 12 days on them and having the pain move from one place to another...and then talking to a couple boot fitters in Breck and Dillion...everyone saying the same thing....they are to small and we don't know how you even ski in them...

I gave the shop that sold them to me a call....was very nice....and guess what....they reserved me a pair of Tecnica Diablo Magnesiums (which I tried on in 27.5 out in Colorado and LOVED)...all I have to do is pay the $100 difference in price....what a great and helpful shop.....they were very nice...much nicer than I expected...

Now we will see how it goes with these boots...I am going to commit to skiing them with the stock foot beds for a month and then go get custom ones done yet AGAIN!!!
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