or Connect
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › Tuning, Maintenance and Repairs › Ski Tuning - edgetune.com questions
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Ski Tuning - edgetune.com questions

post #1 of 22
Thread Starter 
http://www.edgetune.com/productfeatures.html

If you were a recreational skier and about to buy tuning equipment (side/base bevel tuning), would you consider this?

I looked and couldn't find any commentary on the product here.
post #2 of 22
why don't u just pay the measely 15 or 20 bucks and bring it to a profesional?
post #3 of 22
I'd never touch my skis with a power tool. For $130 you can set yourself up pretty well with some moonflex stones and guides.



and to whoever said take it to a store- uh, welcome to epicski. You'll probably figure out soon enough that most people here prefer to do their own tuning because 1) $25 every time you need a tune adds up quickly when you tune once a week or more, as many people here do, and 2) many of us have had bad experiences with those expensive shop tunes, and why pay for a subpar tune when you can do it yourself.
post #4 of 22
Modified version, for those who have a family and/or tune relatively frequently:

Quote:
Originally Posted by maxint
why don't u just pay the measely [15 or 20] 450 or 600 bucks and bring it to a [profesional] random high school kid working for minimum wage?
As to the tool: it looks kind of interesting from the website. It doesn't seem inordinately expensive: $90 if you already have a Dremel tool (more, of course, if you don't, though you get a Dremel tool as part of the deal), and the package includes some useful throw-ins besides the tool. If you do multiple pairs of skis, and value your time, it seems it could pay for itself fairly quickly. Assuming it works well, that is.

I think it's a new product, which would explain why nobody's posted their experience with it here.

I've never used any ceramic grinder, much less this one, so it's hard to judge if it's really a good product. Someone who's worked with ceramic grinders in a shop could probably judge its bona fides though.

Things I wonder:

- Just one grit for the grinding stone. How smooth a finish does it leave? Would you want to use a fine diamond stone after it anyway?

- The base-angle grinding mode worries me a little. Overbeveling due to removal of material? Also, the guy seemed somewhat casual about how far the stone projects through the hole in the guide: it would seem that very small variations in this could significantly change the bevel angle.

- Durability of the stones.
post #5 of 22
Thread Starter 

agree

I think you have to give in on the idea that this would potentially remove less material.
Also, I am not sure about 'tempering' edges on the skis, but I believe the claim regarding the heat dissipation via ceramic material.
Undoubtedly, the idea of making a mistake with a 'power tool' is a point well taken.
post #6 of 22
Nice way to shape sidewalls on old Volants though
post #7 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by sjjohnston
I think it's a new product, which would explain why nobody's posted their experience with it here.

I've never used any ceramic grinder, much less this one, so it's hard to judge if it's really a good product. Someone who's worked with ceramic grinders in a shop could probably judge its bona fides though.

Things I wonder:

- Just one grit for the grinding stone. How smooth a finish does it leave? Would you want to use a fine diamond stone after it anyway?

- The base-angle grinding mode worries me a little. Overbeveling due to removal of material? Also, the guy seemed somewhat casual about how far the stone projects through the hole in the guide: it would seem that very small variations in this could significantly change the bevel angle.

- Durability of the stones.
Its certainly "neat" appearing. I've never used one either, but I have spent a lot of time with ceramic grinders in shops as well as older belt stuff. Some huge issues stand out, in addition to the excellent points you brought up:

-Heat: 220 grit wheel removing a "few thousandths" as they put it each pass will generate a lot of heat. For a variety of reasons, it isn't good practice to heat the edge while removing material. Hardness changes that aren't desirable may occur, and rapid wear of the ceramic material will likewise occur. The results from professional equipment when the coolant flow is interrupted even partially are quite ugly.

-Design concept: The stone spins in the wrong axis. They note that you have to "properly dress" the stone to ensure it is square. Because of its design, the stone will naturally become non-square with use. They say: "The ceramic grinding stone surface must be fully dressed for squareness and concentricity for the sharpest edge." Pro designs use the face of a cylindrical disk for this reason, they remain squarely dressed by design. Look at a trimdisc design if you can't visualize this:



-Underpowered and undersized. Because they are using such a small motor, they have resorted to a small stone which has problems discussed above. Another side effect of using a cylinder the wrong way is that the point of contact is infinitely small. This helps with "getting away" with the low torque motor, but it doesn't help with consistent results. Also, this means that all of the heating going on is very localized. The face of a trimdisc contacts the edge over about a half inch, enormous in comparison. Another likely side effect of the low power small design is the very aggressive stone. 220 grit is finer than a file, yes, but nowhere near as fine as a "medium" disc from the pros.

He talks about variation of the strips the base slides on. The problem here is that the base often won't be flat, and the tool doesn't cross the entire base. Note the $20 dual sealed bearings riding on a machined shaft on that Trim machine, they ensure that the ski is resting flat regardless of waviness in the base. We replace all of them each year. Note the machined cone that holds the ski flat, which is pressed onto another of those bearings, and is again replaced once or twice each year.

Another big problem for such a hand tool is the fact that the tool is far lighter than the the motor powering it. Again, the motor is in the wrong axis, and this won't help holding it squarely and consistently against the ski.

Pressure management with hand tools is key. Adding power to a hand tool that by its nature requires feel is not a good way to get consistent results. This is why no one uses power hand tools for really fine material removal. Wood craftsmen may use a hand plane, and they may use a powered plane, but they aren't going to use a powered hand plane on anything really important. Real power tools have to have a lot of mass and huge stiffness. The weakest part (IMO) of the Trim design is the bevel adjustment. It is adjusted by rotating a carefully machined wheel with flats at different radii for different bevels. Every year during summer service, the Wintersteiger tech brings in a big jig and checks all of the angles for trueness to indication.

The pro tools manage pressure with pneumatic cylinders. I can change the pressure, and there is some damping in the system to deal with nicks/etc, but the pressure remains constant along the edge, as does (importantly) the feed rate. Feeds and speeds are probably the most important criteria for properly removing metal from anything.

The trim is a pretty good design, but really good and consistent results still require attention to detail and careful setup. I highly doubt that this setup is going to provide really consistent results.

A final concern again goes to the axis that the stone is spinning. Material is removed along the length of the edge. I don't have the background in edges on steel to know this, but it seems that this is generally regarded as not optimal. Knife sharpening, for instance, concentrates on strokes that are largely toward and away from the edge rather than along its length. I'd very much like to see magnified images of the different results of polishing along the length and polishing across the length.

Quote:
Originally Posted by janesdad
I think you have to give in on the idea that this would potentially remove less material.
Also, I am not sure about 'tempering' edges on the skis, but I believe the claim regarding the heat dissipation via ceramic material.
Undoubtedly, the idea of making a mistake with a 'power tool' is a point well taken.
The stone they are using at the speed they are suggesting with the area of contact that it generates will produce really high local temps. I wouldn't hazard to guess them, but with the claim that it can remove a couple thou in one pass I'd be very, very concerned. This is after using professional equipment that removes that much material per pass with coolant, lower speeds, and far more surface area.

And finally, I once remember having to give a woman a pair of rental boots because her boots fit by "the best bootfitter in North Carolina" were killing her. I submit the following for you to draw your own conclusions:

EDGETUNE, INC
200 Summergate Cr
Chapel Hill, NC 27516
post #8 of 22
Thread Starter 

but it looks so easy

alright. i love the internet for exactly this reason. I wanted to find that this was superior for a novice to doing the bevelling by hand but your points are straight on.

That, coupled with the idea of doing serious damage in short order via high rpm power tool by mistake when elbow grease works well is enough to move me over to buy the requisite files and jigs.

Happy holidays - if you see Santa, tell him I am bypassing toys for tools again this year.
post #9 of 22
Okay ... that's some money I won't be spending.

Skiingman's criticisms of the design have the not-insconsiderable virtue that they're suddenly obvious after someone points them out (though they weren't before that ... ).
post #10 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by maxint
why don't u just pay the measely 15 or 20 bucks and bring it to a profesional?
what's funny is that after i wrote this.. i brought my skis to the shop... and they ruined them... told me my atomic beta carves were bowed between the edges near the front of the ski and he tried to flatten them out... little did he know beta carves are bowed in the front.... the irony kills me...
post #11 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by maxint
why don't u just pay the measely 15 or 20 bucks and bring it to a profesional?
I have hundreds of dollars of tuning gear & have been tuning my skis for years! there are numerous reason i do not let anyone else tune my skis, but foremost, i do a better job.

thanks for the sage advice above, but that was not what i asked!!!!!!
post #12 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman
I have hundreds of dollars of tuning gear & have been tuning my skis for years! there are numerous reason i do not let anyone else tune my skis, but foremost, i do a better job.

thanks for the sage advice above, but that was not what i asked!!!!!!
the heat issue seems like a killer of this product . i would like to hear atomicmans opinion
post #13 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by maxint
why don't u just pay the measely 15 or 20 bucks and bring it to a profesional?
Well, last time went to a shop for "hot wax" job, they just ran the skis through the machine in two min. and it costs $10. After two hours of skiing on wet snow, the hot wax was gone. I found out that if I do the job myself with an iron, the wax job can last more than 3 days. A whole pound of wax can last me several years for $15.
post #14 of 22
I just watched the demo video for this thing, and with the light pressure and the single pass, I doubted that there would be any significant heat build up. So I tried it myself on an old pair of skis. I took out my Dremel tool and just ran it over the edges similar to the demo video. No heat build up. I'd be interested to see if anyone has actually tried to use the tool on their skis. I saw a post on another site from an instructor/race team coach who uses it and he was raving about it. I can't remember who it was (and I didn't recognize his name), but he had his creds listed, and he had some good experience. Anyone actually use this thing?
post #15 of 22

hmmm.  this post is from 6 years ago but when googling for info on Edgetune it's the first one i found, so i thought i'd contribute my $.02...

 

  1. i read that EdgeTune Pro has been completely redesigned and so i think it deserves you give it a second look.  (see edgetune.com)
  2. i also read that hand held grinders are now an industry norm (consider Wintersteiger DiscMan, Snowglide) & that fears of heat are untrue.
  3. sooo.... I just ordered two!   icon14.gif  (one is for my cousin in Canada).

 

[ Disclaimer: i love toys; my wife loves that this one saves money unlike so many of my other toys... ]

 

-g

 

post #16 of 22

Just based on quick review of the site, and this thread, it looks like:

 

- They did indeed redesign it exactly so as to address the criticism above in this thread about the orientation. It now grinds with the face of the disk; the original design used the edge the disk. This addresses most of the criticisms above.

 

- They changed to a finer grit: from 220 to 600.

 

- They added adjustable guides that control the interaction of the wheel with the edges. This addresses the other main criticism above.

 

- They no longer even propose using it to do base-edge beveling.

 

Seems to me that the greatest weakness is that the bevel will be off (or vary) with a base that's not flat. This doesn't strike me as a horrible problem. Almost all the hand-file guides have the same issue anyway. While small variations in base-edge bevel affect the feel of a ski fairly quickly, having the side-edge bevel be slightly off isn't really a disaster. It would be possible mostly to fix the problem by having the face that sits on the ski base - and the angle-adjustment shims - be long enough that it always reaches all the way across and rests on the opposite edge both at the narrowest and widest part of the ski. This would, of course, not help with inaccuracies due to convex bases, but it would eliminate the very minor change in bevel that arises from slightly concave bases (which is the more common situation). I don't think it's a big issue, though.

 

Looks like a pretty attractive product, at least to me.

post #17 of 22

Oops...never mind.

post #18 of 22

Can the guy who bought two let me know what he thinks as I am considering buying one.

post #19 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcrobbj View Post

Can the guy who bought two let me know what he thinks as I am considering buying one.

Don't hold your breath...

 

 

 

Notice the last log on date.

post #20 of 22

a fool and his money will soon be separated

 

jim

Reply
post #21 of 22

As a concept or for those that really spend the time with setup, it should not be a problem  (I could use a few descriptive words to describe these individuals unfortunately I may be referring to myself here biggrin.gif).

 

If you aren't like this (if you have to think about this statement you aren't), it is the fastest way to remove your edgeseek.gif permanently.

 

I'll stick to the slower but safer hand method (no jokes on the wording here please).

post #22 of 22

semi tangent question......anyone use a multi edge tool like Xact edger or similar?

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Tuning, Maintenance and Repairs
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › Tuning, Maintenance and Repairs › Ski Tuning - edgetune.com questions