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I need to learn to carve at the top of my turns, any suggestions? - Page 2

post #31 of 53
I would call a side hill the trail on the side of a main run - eg cut off by trees etc but following same line
post #32 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by sir turnalot
disski,
Enough already, if I'm not getting through to you then perhaps I'm not making sense to anyone. So forget it. Really. But do you not know what a sidehill is?
Side hill = double fall line? A hill with a fall line that does not travel the same direction as the cut trail? Slopes off to the left or right?
post #33 of 53
That said, when you said "side hill in your favour", I don't know what "in your favour" means. Does it mean that it slopes up or down off the side of the trail?
post #34 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnH
Side hill = double fall line? A hill with a fall line that does not travel the same direction as the cut trail? Slopes off to the left or right?

Ah so he is talking about a run that is not cut down the fall line..... that is pretty much every run at Perisher!
post #35 of 53
So if he is talking about turns that are not in the fall line I can understand that some may feel easier..... but my instructor prefers one way & I prefer the other way..... so which is "in my favour"?
post #36 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnH
That said, when you said "side hill in your favour", I don't know what "in your favour" means. Does it mean that it slopes up or down off the side of the trail?
When, after making the turn, I am looking down off the side of the trail, I have just made the easier turn (the slope was in my favour). The next turn will be the one where the slope falls away. For purposes of early edge engagement and the feeling of getting early edge engagement, that "easier" turn is the one that I was talking about.
post #37 of 53
Imagine that the trail is a desktop ruler. If you lift one end of the ruler, you have a nice even trail. If you now twist the ruler, one side of the trail is now higher than the other.

I think that's a side-hill.

So in looking down the hill, if the left side is higher, then a left turn will be easier than a right turn, 'cuz the edges will be quicker to engage on the LH turn.
post #38 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by sir turnalot
When, after making the turn, I am looking down off the side of the trail, I have just made the easier turn (the slope was in my favour). The next turn will be the one where the slope falls away. For purposes of early edge engagement and the feeling of getting early edge engagement, that "easier" turn is the one that I was talking about.
So, if you were looking down the trail, and the trail slopes off to the left, you are saying that by going up the slope on the right side of the trail, and making the left turn, that you think it's easier to carve the turn entry when you make the left turn to turn down the "fall line"'?

If that's the case, I would respectfully disagree. The main reason is that you are carrying little momentum down the fall line, and when you get on those left (downhill edges), if you tried to get your CM downhill of your feet, you'll have a very hard time not skidding the skis around to keep them under you. I think it would be much easier to maintain your carve when making the right turn at the bottom of the hill, because over rotating the skis up the hill would cause you to almost come to a stop.

Either way, I don't think I'd recommend this as an exercise to learn the feeling of early edge engagement and holding an early carve, because the feelings you get with the double fall line throw off your normal sensory perceptions. You are better off learning it on a gentle slope that has a perfect grade so that you can get an understanding of the sensations when it happens correctly, to both sides in an easily repeatable circumstance.
post #39 of 53
Thanks Big E - that is much simpler.....

I find it easier that way... but my instructor kept saying he prefers the other direction.... (Note we both have big leg length differences & funny hips/feet etc.... so for him with enough technique the issue may come down simply to his preferred body dynamics).....

From the hill issue I should find engagement easier one way but also disengagement harder - & vice verse....

I am still enough of a sook to have a preferred side even on a fall-line run...
post #40 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by disski
So if he is talking about turns that are not in the fall line I can understand that some may feel easier..... but my instructor prefers one way & I prefer the other way..... so which is "in my favour"?
I understand the confusion. My background is that of a ski racer. Ski racers are always wary of fall-aways or sidehills. It is easier to tighten the radius of the turn when the turn is being made such that at the end of the turn the skis are facing down the steepest pitch of the hill. The turn is easy because the slope is banked in the direction of the turn.

For the purposes of the original topic, this terrain feature can be used. It allows for early engagement of the outside edge. The slope assists in getting quick and early pressure onto the edges because it is banked and the skier is skiing up the bank. Gravity is on your side in making the turn. In the next turn gravity is pulling the skier toward the outside of the turn, early in the turn, making it harder.

Yes-No!!!???
post #41 of 53
Ah!

banked slope.... yes better idea - easier to understand this..... Yes gravity helps pull into turn.... Hence easier to turn if in a sort of "gully" run for learning parallel skiers....

My canadian instructor likes to ski me UP the overhangs I refuse to ski over..... they assure me it is actually technically harder to ski up & then down than to drop down 6 inches & straight run.... but the slope is easy to preski(up) than to guess & I like it a LOT!! (I know that the slope angle down is exactly the opposite of what I skied up - so easier to guess change in balance than just by looking at slope ... then a drop... then a rebalance on inknown slope)..... We know my preferences are sometimes off kilter...
post #42 of 53
Let's clear this up:

The Left Hand Side of the trail is higher than the right. The trail is straight, like my ruler example.

A Right Hand turn is done on the LH side of the trail. A LH turn is done on the RH side of the trail.

Is a LH turn easier or a RH turn, and why?
post #43 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mom
Dog, I like your posts.
Thank you Mom! /blushes
post #44 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE
Let's clear this up:

The Left Hand Side of the trail is higher than the right. The trail is straight, like my ruler example.

A Right Hand turn is done on the LH side of the trail. A LH turn is done on the RH side of the trail.

Is a LH turn easier or a RH turn, and why?
For me the RH turn I think is easier - but not a lot different.... the slopes I hate are the ones the other direction (right hand higher... I think... too long since ski time... I need to try it)..... I just know whichever I like my instructor says WHY? & says there are pluses & minuses....
post #45 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro
Dog,
The Mahre brothers made that exercise famous and it is in their book No Hill too Fast.
Thank you! I just completed a search and found a good condition hard cover of that book at https://www.venturapacific.net 15$

Ahh... you are referening to the White Pass Turn, yes the book explains it well.

The excerise I explained is the tried and true garland on arcs!
cheers!
post #46 of 53
BigE

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE
Imagine that the trail is a desktop ruler. If you lift one end of the ruler, you have a nice even trail. If you now twist the ruler, one side of the trail is now higher than the other.

I think that's a side-hill.

So in looking down the hill, if the left side is higher, then a left turn will be easier than a right turn, 'cuz the edges will be quicker to engage on the LH turn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE
Let's clear this up:

The Left Hand Side of the trail is higher than the right. The trail is straight, like my ruler example.

A Right Hand turn is done on the LH side of the trail. A LH turn is done on the RH side of the trail.

Is a LH turn easier or a RH turn, and why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sir turnalot
For the purposes of the original topic, this terrain feature can be used. It allows for early engagement of the outside edge. The slope assists in getting quick and early pressure onto the edges because it is banked and the skier is skiing up the bank. Gravity is on your side in making the turn. In the next turn gravity is pulling the skier toward the outside of the turn, early in the turn, making it harder.

Yes-No!!!???

I did notice the discrepancy.

If it is your perception that the LH turn is easier to make, then the LH turn is easier to make.

For purposes of teaching, on your slope, the LH turn can be used to teach skidding because it is easier to do a skidding traverse in the LH turn - kind of like skidding down the backside of a mogul.

On the other side, the bank will assist in keeping snow contact and pressure right through transition and into the next turn.
post #47 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE
Let's clear this up:

The Left Hand Side of the trail is higher than the right. The trail is straight, like my ruler example.

A Right Hand turn is done on the LH side of the trail. A LH turn is done on the RH side of the trail.

Is a LH turn easier or a RH turn, and why?
Thanks BigE.

For most people the left turn will be easier, because when standing upright, their left edges are already engaged, but when skiing toward the left side of the trail and they try to turn right, they have to move their CM quite a long way (beyond vertical) to become perpendicular to the slope.

That said, the intent of this thread is carving at the top of the turn. When making that left turn, down on the right side of the trail, it will be more difficult to carve the turn rntry because the tails will have a greater tendency to wash out. When making the right turn (up on the left side of the trail), it is not as easy to over rotate the skis, and therefore, is easier to keep them in a carve. Watch some intermediate skiers on a trail with a double fall line. When on the low side of the slope, they'll turn moe easily but also skid more easily. When on the high side (turning toward the low side), they will keep the skis tracking straight down the fall line and pick up more speed.

Since we have a noticable double fall line on one of our few beginner trails, and we teach lots of level 3-5 studens on it, we get a lot of opportunity to observe this, and to use the double fall line as a teaching aid.
post #48 of 53
JohnH,

Great observation, I think you're right!

The LH turn will skid more, since they are accelerating more when going to the RH side of the hill, and that is how they control speed.

The RH turn will carve more, since the hill slows them down, and they can concentrate on their edging.

I had the opportunity to see exactly that effect last weekend, on exactly that sort of slope. In one case, even though the RH turn was using "the bad leg" it was way better than the LH turn was using "the strong leg".

The strong leg was overrotated in effort to shorten turn radius and control speed. There was more effort in turning uphill.
post #49 of 53
The biggest obstacles with the fall away turn (LH) are the tendancy of the outside ski to lose pressure and edge purchase as it drops away from the skier, and the need for the skis to fight gravity and climb back uphill.

The banked turn naturally creates outside ski pressure, and the skis need only arc back into the falline, their default course of travel.
post #50 of 53
Thanks Rick. Physically, you are most correct -- the primary reason it's hard to carve is as you say.

Let me assure you, in this case the skidding was prompted by the acceleration and the fear of the resulting speed.
post #51 of 53
One neat thing about carving on the high side turn is you can bank your whole body into it and not lose grip. You need some decent speed for that, of course.
post #52 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by MilesB
One neat thing about carving on the high side turn is you can bank your whole body into it and not lose grip. You need some decent speed for that, of course.
And if you've got enough speed and a big enough bank, you can get your body horizontal or even below your feet! It's fun but dangerous because you're going to be coming across the fall line (out of the turn) with a head of steam. So make sure, if you try it, that you aren't going to take someone out. It's kind of like making carved turns on the wall of a half pipe.
post #53 of 53
Lots of good advice about what NOT to do... (waist steering, etc..). When I was taking a race coaching clinic( I have little or no actual racing experience), the instructor had me do something where as I was coming across from the end of previous turn and about to start next turn...I simply reached out into the void as far as possible as if I was going to hang glide to the bottom of the valley. Essentially I tossed my body into the weightless void, puckered by butt and hoped the skiis would come around; which they did and I skiied some of the fastest turns of my life.

basically, she got me to get onto those new edges, to get my hips inside of the ski radial path...commit to that carve much sooner...and then be patient to let them come around on their own. Of course I had to have a lot of other skills already developed in order to do this...skiis don't just come around on their own automatically at those speeds and particular with race skiis on. But it sounds like you are already doing a lot of those things right..its just a matter of getting more onto your inside edges sooner and getting your hips inside and then waiting for them to arc instead of getting impatient and trying to steer them around.

good luck. the first time I did this...it literally scared me with the amount of speed and Centrifigal forces that came up from my feet for about 6-7 glorious turns in a row.
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