EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › Skis crossing on edge release
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Skis crossing on edge release - Page 2

post #31 of 51
Several people have mentioned (in one way or another) moving forward, or not getting your hips behind. IMO this is likely the area that will get you to your goal. It doesn't really matter what kind of releasing movements you make if you are not moving forward with or ahead of your skis, there will be some effect, desirable or un.

never sacrifice balance for an edging(or any other) movement.
(that is what people do sometimes when going for the immediate edge change; move sideways instead of where they are going.)

balance in the future.

I don't have any exercises to suggest, but anything that gets you to flex forward from your ankles before (or as) you go for the edge change will do.
post #32 of 51
Tim,
The crux of Colossus' problem is releasing both skis at the same time. He also asked about why his skis fly off line when he hooks up an early edge. The crux of that problem is learning how to progressively edge and pressure the ski. Through experience he has learned that it is a balancing act that changes throughout the turn he is trying to learn.
Getting to a early edge is often mistakenly thought to mean high edge angles early. A one degree edge angle will engage a ski. Carving or skidding, at that point becomes a tactical choice. A balance application of all three skills vs a bias towards one particular skill keeps the skis from "flying off on a tangent".
post #33 of 51
Roto,
Great phrases.
post #34 of 51
Thread Starter 
This has been a great discussion; I will take notes to put in my pocket the next time I'm on the hill.

I think some folks have hit the nail on the head in diagnosing my difficulties. It's particularly true that I make too sudden a move getting from one edge to the other (there is nothing particularly smooth about my transition as I fling myself from edge to edge). Once again, I've fallen into the trap of thinking that because I'm skiing fast and making aggressive movements I'm skiing well. I think the pointers offered will help.

I'll comment again in a few days, after I've skied.

Thanks.
post #35 of 51
Hi Tim:

Sorry to jump on you, but I felt much of the advice in this thread did cover the question. I'm not an instructor either (please apply that as a disclaimer to my entire post(s)!)

I think you're right...edge change is the issue. How is it solved though? What causes our edges to change? Is it something we do right at that moment, something that happens as a result of what we've done before, both? I want to move progressively to and thru the moment of transition as smoothly as possible and not have to "do" anything in particular at that moment to change edges, beyond my body crossing over my skis headed where I want it to go (I'll be working diligently on this for quite some time, I'm sure.) Yep, I use poles! I use them to push me around in the lift line, but I try to not use them to push me around while turning ...I will certainly jam one to force a turn when I need to (I like to stay upright too!), but I try to avoid that! My experience is the instructor will bring the pole swing in later to complement the movements they've been working on, but it wont be a blocking pole plant; rather a swing with a touch after edge change.

Snip all you want, I don't mind! I guess it boils down to interpretation.

Carving! Yeah, that's ONE skill. I work on it, I work on Pivot slips too.

I like to ski too!

Best regards,

Chris
post #36 of 51
Dear justanotherskipro, Please accept the following conversation in the spirit of mutual admiration and respect. Sincerely, timvwcom.

OK, now that no one should kill me for "asking questions" and misinterpret that as questioning your wisdom/skill/intent/honor/etc... Since you seem to have some interest in this subject, as evidenced by your posts here, especially regards my comments earlier... may I ask you (or others?) some basic questions??? (am I swerving off topic again?, sorry)

(edit before I posted: I DID swerve off our dear colossal friends subject matter... and rather than hijack his thread, think I should probably start a new one! What should the title be? "Old" School v "New" School??? I have more to add to it, will get it up within the hour?)

Tim
post #37 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by timvwcom
Maybe I was just shocked that after reading a dozen plus responses on a great ski site, no one had mentioned "poles" at all. I mean, you guys all still use poles, right?
Actually most of the time I'm happier without the damn things & I am pretty sure that most of those who responded could easily do a non-wedge entry without the poles.....

Poles are nice to have - they serve certain purposes to aid balance mechanisms in the body... they aid timing(IMHO)also.....

It is quite possible to turn/edge feet without poles though!
post #38 of 51
Colossus,

First my disclaimer, in that this is my first view of this thread, and I don't have time to read it all, so I apologize if I'm being redundant.

Here's what I heard in your original post (2 pages back so I can't copy/paste): You move the new inside foot forward into the new turn (or something to that effect).

This makes me wonder about the image you have in your head about this move, and what it's doing to your feet when you are in transition between turns. If you push that new inside foot forward and apply pressure to the rear of the boot cuff, it is going to make it really tough to make a simultaneous edge change. You need to think the opposite thought. Let your body lead your feet/skis. Keep that inside foot pulled back so that you maintain some tension on the tongue of the boot with your shin.

I'd imagine you've gotten quite a bit of useful info here, but I just wanted to point out something that jumped out at me.

Also, another limiting factor that should be checked, and I'm guessing has already been stated is your alignment. Make sure you are aligned properly in your boots. If not, it makes it really hard to make things work properly, even if you are making the right moves, because you have to over exaggerate the move to get the equipment to respond properly.
post #39 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnH
Also, another limiting factor that should be checked, and I'm guessing has already been stated is your alignment. Make sure you are aligned properly in your boots. If not, it makes it really hard to make things work properly, even if you are making the right moves, because you have to over exaggerate the move to get the equipment to respond properly.
Good point, JohnH! C, what did Bud say about your alignment at the ESA? Did you have him set you up?
post #40 of 51
Thread Starter 
I have now skied again, and tried to put some of this excellent advice into practice. I am happy to say that it seems to be helping, and my turns are getting smoother.

It seems that the root of my problem was that I was trying to go from left turn to right turn without going through the ski straight part. I was missing the part where I am balanced evenly on both skis, with neither edge engaged. At this point, the hips and shoulders are forward, the shins are pressuring the front of the boots, and the skier is actually "two-footed skiing", with the weight equally balanced on each ski. Then, after having established this balanced position, should I begin to roll the ankles and pressure the new edge.

To summarize the motion, I think that the right sequence is release the edges, flatten the skis, swing the feet under the body (CM change), then slowly start to pressure the new edge.

Unfortunately, I'm not having that much luck with one footed skiing. I can ski on one foot, and turn towards the inside edge of that foot, but I can't manage to turn to the little toe edge. More practice is in order.
post #41 of 51
Nice to hear, Colossus. Keep in mind that the motion is a continuous one. There are no distinctions, just a smooth move from old to new edges through the flat ski stage. I think about a pendulum and the movement it makes. You keep moving in that motion until your skis are at their highest edge angle for that turn, then reduce through zero and onto the new edges again.
post #42 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colossus178
To summarize the motion, I think that the right sequence is release the edges, flatten the skis, swing the feet under the body (CM change), then slowly start to pressure the new edge.
Hi Colossus,

Along the vein of what ssh is saying, are you moving the feet across underneath you ..or, releasing and allowing the CM to flow across?

Chris
post #43 of 51
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh
Keep in mind that the motion is a continuous one. There are no distinctions, just a smooth move from old to new edges through the flat ski stage.
Thanks, SSH.

I think that's where I was going wrong. I was grossly over-emphasizing one part of the entire motion, while losing sight of the fact that it is a fluid, changing, dynamic process.
post #44 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colossus178
To summarize the motion, I think that the right sequence is release the edges, flatten the skis, swing the feet under the body (CM change), then slowly start to pressure the new edge.

Unfortunately, I'm not having that much luck with one footed skiing. I can ski on one foot, and turn towards the inside edge of that foot, but I can't manage to turn to the little toe edge. More practice is in order.
Like Steve noted, Colossus, its a continuing movement. You're correct in the thought you release the edges, which leads to flattening the skis on the snow, but this is just an instant in the ongoing process followed immediately by the beginning of engaging the new edges. There's no pause in the neutral positioning, there's no swinging the feet, just rolling onto the new edges as the CM moves into the turn.

To work on one-footed skiing, do a bunch of traverses on the uphill edge of the uphill ski, allowing the ski to turn toward uphill as it will when weighted on its sidecut. As this becomes familiar and comfortable, make the traverses increasingly steep, still turning uphill at the end. Let the downhill foot stay on the snow, but not be weighted. As the traverses get steeper and steeper, you will be closer to completing a turn on the outside edge of the inside ski.
post #45 of 51
Colossus,
Now to really rock your world.....
Imagine the turn from a new perspective. The transition to the new turn begins when the skis are one degree from the fall line and ends when the skis are one degree from the fall line. Think of a lane change instead of a C shaped turn. You are either getting to an edge, or coming off an edge. Constantly changing edge angles. No resting and no stopping because you found neutral. It is not a fast change but it is not a matter of starting and stopping. Only getting from one edge to another. It goes something like this....
  • You are at the highest edge angle needed and you need to return to neutral by reducing that edge angle.
  • You are nearing neutral and by allowing the body to drift across the skis you are now passing through neutral.
  • You have just passed neutral and are allowing your body to flow downhill, causing the skis to tip slightly onto the new edges.
  • You are continuing to allow edge angle build until you reach the fall line.
  • Rinse and repeat as needed.
post #46 of 51
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh
C, what did Bud say about your alignment at the ESA? Did you have him set you up?
SSH,

I think my alignment is pretty good. When Bud tweaked it, he noted that I wasn't very far out; he didn't have to make much of a change to get me balanced.

Since then, I have changed boots, so the work Bud did on the last ones is out the window.
post #47 of 51
Thread Starter 
I just spent five days on the hill, trying to make use of the wealth of good advice offered in this thread. You should all be happy to know that I was able to directly utilize much of that advice, and it was all useful in helping me understand the mechanics of turning. I used several of the drills – R.R. tracks, one-legged skiing, garlands, and pivot slips, to name a few – and found much of the technical advice – hips forward; engage the ankles, lead with the little toe edge, use the knees, etc. – very helpful for analyzing my technique.

I started the weekend with a lesson. Through luck and good planning, I managed to get an all-day private for the cost of a group lesson: by taking the lesson mid-week on a very cold day, I virtually assured that I would be the only student in the group (I sincerely hope this isn’t a tremendous faux pas in the instructor’s eyes). The lesson let me clear my mind of some of the crap and jargon that was cluttering my brain and let me focus on the important elements of my game.

Probably the key learning I took away from the lesson is regarding turn entry. As John Cole said in this thread, “A turn entry is like building a home; the foundation must be solid before the structure will stand the test of time.” Kenji phrased it differently: he said, “build a platform between every turn.” Every turn starts from a stable, balanced platform, a solid foundation; without a good platform, I’m less likely to make a good entry into the next turn. (Incidentally, I think that was probably the root cause of my crossing problem: I was attempting to initiate a turn before I had fully completed the last one, and before I had established the necessary platform.) We did a couple of drills to help establish the platform. At one point, he put me between two chairs and said, “this is your platform.” We worked there for a few minutes, rolling the ankles, swinging the knees, demonstrating a good, even platform versus an unbalanced platform. I found the complimentary on-the-snow drills and classroom demonstration and discussion very helpful.

Once I had the platform established, I found it much easier to apply the advice offered in this thread. I found myself repeating, “get between your chairs” as I turned. Once I was around, and had my platform established – once I was “between my chairs” - I was able to concentrate on activating the ankles, engaging the little toe edge, swinging the knees, experimenting with weight and balance.

A drill I found very helpful in feeling the transfer from edge to edge was the tuck turn. By getting my weight down and keeping it there – no weight shift at all – and just using the feet and ankles to turn, I could much better feel the transition from edge to flat to edge. I tried to duplicate this while standing upright, but found that my CM moved around too much, and I lost the sense of pure foot/ankle action.

Once again, I want to thank all of you for your advice. I’m sure it’s advice some of you have given numerous times before on this very forum, but I’m here to tell you that it’s very much appreciated by those of us who are in the early stages of learning to ski.
post #48 of 51
C,
Good work! Now keep exploring getting neutral and adding a wider range of tipping. After a while this will become second nature. It takes some time but it is well worth the effort.
JASP
post #49 of 51
Way to go!
post #50 of 51
And remember the goal is to make that time "between the chairs", otherwise commonly called neutral, occur, but just for an instant as you go from one set of edges to the other. It's something you want to happen, but it is something you should be passing through rather than being there long enough to actually feel it.
post #51 of 51
Glad to hear you're making progress--and having more fun!
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › Skis crossing on edge release