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Snowboard sales are flat - Page 3

post #61 of 82

The Grand Finale

Last year i took a little trip to Vt with the kids and skied Stratton and Mt. Snow. There were having a halfpipe competition and we were skiing the lift that goes up over it. I was surprised(but maybe i wasn't), that the kids who had the skies were totally kicking ass over the boarders and their seemed to be more skiers that even boarders. Without a doubt they looked better and were giving that pipe better stuff. Why wouldn't they - skis work better.
post #62 of 82
Well, here I was at the local ski area this past weekend watching droves of boarders doing their level best to scape all the new snow off the hill--that is when they wern't sitting in packs directly below knolls and jumps here and there.: I don't begrudge them their fun. They certainly have helped sustain ski areas. However, if snowboard sales are indeed flat it will be hard for me to shed too many genuine tears of regret.

P.S. I'm sure my views will moderate as more snow accumulates.
As for where all too many tend to camp out on the slopes, I guess that's just Social Darwinism at work.
post #63 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnowbirdDevotee
I just don't see them, and that is an observation, sure there are tons of them hanging out at the lodge, and in the mainstream traffic areas.
All the good snowboarders at snowbird are going to be out in the backcountry unless it's a powder day. There's just as many good snowboarders around as good skiers, ie. not that many. I think the problem is that you don't know the good spots.
post #64 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
In the summer they do civil war re-enactment.
I always thought they tried to convert their Volvo wagons to biodiesel and made big batches of Granola.


I think ski shops are finally starting to realize that twintip/fat and big mountain skis will sell just as well as race skis and metrons... if they pitch them to people other than the kids in baggy clothes.

And all the new ski companies that are cropping up make fat skis. There's definately a growing market.
post #65 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seven
I was talking to a K2 rep friend who also reps Marmot, Dana Designs, and Black Diamond.

Snowboard sales have finally gone flat. Ski sales have seen a slightly stronger market. Telemark is just too small to even register a bump on the chart but its sales are noticably stronger every year for the past 4 years. But the tele thing getting stronger is accountable in some large measure by the park and pipe crew. Go figure. Not a telemark turn in sight when you go to the P&P.

The industry is very keen on what the next new thing will be? Will there be a new thing? Do skiers and riders need a new thing? Do we want a new thing?

What do you think? Grumble on you grumblers...
maybe in his territory snowboard sales were down, but the SIA reports say otherwise.
post #66 of 82
I know this is a dead horse...but this is too easy...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SnowbirdDevotee
They don't go down the bumps, too much, except sideways, oh gosh I know there are a few super experts out there that can do everything I can and then some. but i'm just talking the gross averages here.
I think, although I could be wrong, that "they" go down the bumps sideways b/c that's the way "they" ride, dude. :

Quote:
Originally Posted by SnowbirdDevotee
Sure they can do groomers and single flat blacks as good as anyone. But when i see them in the chutes, the very steep parts of Snowbird, when I ride up Little Cloud lift and look who's and how they are coming down the bowl. I just don't see them, and that is an observation, sure there are tons of them hanging out at the lodge, and in the mainstream traffic areas.
When you see them in the chutes, the very steep parts of Snowbird, looking how they are coming down the bowl as you ride the lift, you just don't see them? I guess that snow camo outerwear really does work!

Quote:
Originally Posted by SnowbirdDevotee
Look for yourself. This wouldn't hold at places like Killington, full of trendy easterners. go where the REAL skiers go and see for yourself. I'm no super expert or anything. Just a regular "observant" mid 40's "sport" who is very physically fit guy who has been skiing 35 years and who can see for himself.
Hmm...I spent 4 years skiing & riding on Mansfield, General Stark, Lincoln, Mt. Ellen, and a few other choice spots. I saw plenty of snowboarders, including the Grand Poo-bah himself, Mr. Carpenter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SnowbirdDevotee
Why would i want to lock myself into a dumb big board, that i can't even walk with, clumsy,
I agree with you on this one, bro. I only click into (but never lock) smart boards. As our sport is assisted by that wonderful force known as gravity, I don't see the need to walk on skis or a board that often. If I ever do get stranded on a flat, I usually have no problem getting back to sliding thanks to a quick snap of the pole from a skier-in-the-know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SnowbirdDevotee
FOR SURE when i do I have less terrain that I can ski(no moguls, or not like a "real" mogul" skier would, dangerous in all the tight corners etc etc. Sorry for the news...
Huh? Dude, if you're gonna rag on the knuckledragging set at least make a point to use spellcheck! I'm not expecting miracles from ya, but ragging on the bro-brah set is slightly more effective when you don't write like one.

Now back to our regularly scheduled programming. Dude.
post #67 of 82
Here at Whistler, snowboarding is seriously on the wane. A few years ago, boarding was cool and the kids dominated the mountain. Now twin tips are hot with the locals and boarding is being left to the kids from the burbs, shlepping up for the day, or 40somethings pretending to be young.
post #68 of 82

Snowboard Sales Are Flat...

because overbreeding in the wild leads to fratricide: http://image40.webshots.com/40/9/80/...2edXKGr_ph.jpg

(this is meant to be humorous)
post #69 of 82
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rosco
maybe in his territory snowboard sales were down, but the SIA reports say otherwise.
SIA? You're kidding ...right?

I used to be a lowly tech rep for Volkl in the SE region before they were a popular brand. Remember when the Weltcup Renntiger made SKI Magazine's cover? That was the year that the shit hit the fan with Volkl. Before that ...Volkl who? SIA was a big reason for that cover shot. A lot of industry insiders knew that Volkl was making Wold Cup race stock for Rossi, Atomic, Fisher ...the list goes on and on. But nobody in the US consumer region knew a Volkl from a Lurk. SIA president David Ingemie "made a few calls" for Gunther Yokl to get the word out. It was pure brilliance. IMO, the SIA is just a marketing tool for the industry.

It's not exactly in their best interest to say that anything is flat about ski industry's market.
post #70 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by rosco
maybe in his territory snowboard sales were down, but the SIA reports say otherwise.
Thank you for point out the obvious, finally! I was reading this thread wondering how two dozen intelligent people could instantly accept as industry-wide gospel what some unknown "rep" said to one person! Sheesh!

Give us some reputable proof, Seven -- from a respected publication or quarterly report.
post #71 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seven
SIA? You're kidding ...right?

I used to be a lowly tech rep for Volkl in the SE region before they were a popular brand... A lot of industry insiders knew that Volkl was making Wold Cup race stock for Rossi, Atomic, Fisher ...the list goes on and on. But nobody in the US consumer region knew a Volkl from a Lurk.
It's not exactly in their best interest to say that anything is flat about ski industry's market.

As far as I know, Voelkl never made skis for Fischer.
post #72 of 82
Thread Starter 

clarity

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lostboy
As far as I know, Voelkl never made skis for Fischer.
Sorry if I was unclear. That's not quite what I meant...

It is not unheard of for a sponsored WC level racer to require that their sponsors procure skis and boots from other manufacterers. That sponsor will simply apply their branding to the exterior of the product.

It looks like a Rossignol, but it's really a Volkl. That's what I meant.

Back in the day (I'm sure you already know this), Volkl had their own forest and were the only manufacterer to precut camber in their wood cores. They were the shit and many racers knew it.

Don't get me wrong... Fischer skis are awesome and for good reason. They are a top notch product at all levels.

I am very biased towards Fischer's skate and classic skis. They are hands down the best in that discipline.
post #73 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seven
Sorry if I was unclear. That's not quite what I meant...

It is not unheard of for a sponsored WC level racer to require that their sponsors procure skis and boots from other manufacterers. That sponsor will simply apply their branding to the exterior of the product.

It looks like a Rossignol, but it's really a Volkl. That's what I meant.
Thanks for the clarification. You are certainly right about some racers badging their preferred skis or boots which are actually made by other manufacturers to comply with their agreement with their sponsors.
post #74 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seven
SIA? You're kidding ...right?

IMO, the SIA is just a marketing tool for the industry.

It's not exactly in their best interest to say that anything is flat about ski industry's market.
I don't agree.

Yes, it is SIA's function to "market" the industry to consumers, but generally, consumers don't care whether sales are "flat" or not - just whether there is good product at a fair price.

SIA reports year after year that ski hardgoods sales are, in fact, flat. Have been for years, as some other posters have pointed out.

In dollars, hardgoods (skis, boots, poles, goggles, helmets) sales have been stuck at slightly over $600M annually for almost a decade. Adjust for inflation, and this means the market has actually retracted in terms of units. Factor in the exploding sales of helmets, and one could assume that sales of other hardgoods are significantly down.

Slightly off topic, there was a huge drop in the ski market last year. 50,000 fewer pair sold in 04/05 than in 03/04.
post #75 of 82
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by wbroun
Thank you for point out the obvious, finally! I was reading this thread wondering how two dozen people could instantly accept as industry-wide gospel what some unknown "rep" said to one person! Sheesh!

Give us some reputable proof, Seven -- from a respected publication or quarterly report.
I'm sorry wbroun. I only have what I gave in the OP. I'm sorry that it doesn't meet your criteria for credibility. I only posted the OP to generate the usual banter.

I invite you to find more credible information and post another thread. I promise I won't criticize your OP.

I stand by what I said about the SIA. They are a marketing tool for the industry. I would put far more credence in what an industry rep has to say than the SIA. That rep relies of the strength of the market to feed his wife and kids and is much closer to the food chain supply than the SIA. Quarterly reports are meant to reflect the perception of strength or weakness. What do you think is more real ...Food on the table or analysis for the board members?

Rosco, if you have some of the written word that wbroun deems more credible, then I suggest you provide a link or a quote. I know that wbroun would never rely on what you claim as sufficient evidence. Right wbroun?

BTW Rosco, welcome to Epic.
post #76 of 82
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by troutman
I don't agree.

Yes, it is SIA's function to "market" the industry to consumers, but generally, consumers don't care whether sales are "flat" or not - just whether there is good product at a fair price.

SIA reports year after year that ski hardgoods sales are, in fact, flat. Have been for years, as some other posters have pointed out.

In dollars, hardgoods (skis, boots, poles, goggles, helmets) sales have been stuck at slightly over $600M annually for almost a decade. Adjust for inflation, and this means the market has actually retracted in terms of units. Factor in the exploding sales of helmets, and one could assume that sales of other hardgoods are significantly down.

Slightly off topic, there was a huge drop in the ski market last year. 50,000 fewer pair sold in 04/05 than in 03/04.
Manufacterers care a lot if a perception of a flat market in snowboard sales is being "sold" by the SIA. Manufacterers and retailers are what keep the SIA funded ...not consumers.

It's obvious that the SIA would not bite the hand that feeds it.
post #77 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seven
Manufacterers care a lot if a perception of a flat market in snowboard sales is being "sold" by the SIA. Manufacterers and retailers are what keep the SIA funded ...not consumers.

It's obvious that the SIA would not bite the hand that feeds it.
???

I'm not sure you read my post.

On the ski side, SIA has reorted a flat market for a decade - even a shrinking market last year 0405. This would seem to be at odds with your assertion that the SIA only wants to paint a rosy picture of the industry to please their constituency, correct?
post #78 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seven
I'm sorry wbroun. I only have what I gave in the OP. I'm sorry that it doesn't meet your criteria for credibility. I only posted the OP to generate the usual banter.

I invite you to find more credible information and post another thread. I promise I won't criticize your OP.
No worries, Seven. If someone can't spread ski industry shoptalk on an internet ski forum, where else can they?

I come from a journalism background, and often forget the usual two-source verification doesn't apply here. I was just surprised at the apparent uncritical acceptance several people showed here.

It's just the internet. Banter on!
post #79 of 82
Thread Starter 

Geesh

I read your post with comprehension.
If that is in fact true what you claim, then you sir are correct.

I was merely pointing out that the SIA is a lousy predictor of changing trends since it does not serve their suporters to make such predictions. Once something is a forgone conclusion, then there ain't no point in ignoring the obvious. That's where the SIA and other meaningless rags come in. Who cares about the SIA ...right?

Let me TRY to put this thread back on track.

I originally posted a paraphrased excerpt as a salient remark concerning consumer enthusiam towards snowboarding's place in current industry trends. Let's face it... reps talk ...they talk to their friends and to each other. They want to know what sells today and more importantly ...tomorrow. I never meant to disguise my OP as being something other than inside industry speak. I really thought some of you might truly be interested in the gossip.

SO...
I will reiterate.
There is some verbal debate among industry insiders that speaks to "what is the next big thing" because "they" already know that snowboarding ain't carrying that torch anymore. No I don't have the numbers. But I can assure you that a rep feels this pulse very closely. It's simple... what rep doesn't want to get the account for the next big deal. Remember when Salomon came out with their boot? That was the beginning of a huge trend ...a manufacterer that sold a ski/boot/binding combo... and did it well.

I thought it was good discussion for a group of crazies who live and breath skiing ...YOU GUYS.

I don't care about quarterly reports , industry rags and SIA reports. I care about what you guys think.

So, what do you think?

Never mind... this thread has lived its life of a fairly useless thread about nothing. Kinda like the Seinfeld show.
post #80 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seven

SO...
I will reiterate.
There is some verbal debate among industry insiders that speaks to "what is the next big thing" because "they" already know that snowboarding ain't carrying that torch anymore. No I don't have the numbers. But I can assure you that a rep feels this pulse very closely.

I thought it was good discussion for a group of crazies who live and breath skiing ...YOU GUYS.

I don't care about quarterly reports , industry rags and SIA reports. I care about what you guys think.

So, what do you think?

Here's what I think. If you want to have a discussion based on gut feelings without any regard for statistical evidence, it's a waste of time. I know plenty of people in the industry who would stand behind either side of this argument based on their own perceptions. But a hypothesis without any data to back it up is just a bunch of hot air. That having been said, Seven should stop reading here.

"One key metric that went unnoticed by the mainstream media was the fact that snowboarding participation outpaced ski participation for the first time this year." 5.9 million people went skiing at least once. 6.6 million people went snowboarding at least once.

This came from the Snowsports Market Report 10.24.05

I know this is just one statistic, so please don't take it as the end all answer to the industry's future.
post #81 of 82
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rosco
That having been said, Seven should stop reading here.
I tried.

Without a little hot air this place would be flat. Mind you I never contributed said "hot air" to this thread.
post #82 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seven
I was merely pointing out that the SIA is a lousy predictor of changing trends since it does not serve their suporters to make such predictions.
I can agree with that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seven
I originally posted a paraphrased excerpt as a salient remark concerning consumer enthusiam towards snowboarding's place in current industry trends.
I don't think it's a question of enthusiasm. I think the growth of snowboard sales has slowed for 3 specific reasons: 1) growth has to slow at some point, and SB sales have grown every year for a decade, 2) twin tip skis have kept more teenagers skiing rather that converting to snowboard, and 3) horrendous snow last year in the pacific northwest - one of the meccas of snowboarding. Fourteen SB shops went OOB in the PNW since last season.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seven
There is some verbal debate among industry insiders that speaks to "what is the next big thing" because "they" already know that snowboarding ain't carrying that torch anymore.

So, what do you think?
Well, I'm modest enough to not call myself a 'leader,' but I've been in the business for over 15 years. This may not be exactly what you are talking about, but there's no doubt that the "Big Thing" right now is twin tips & "Freeskiing." Manufacturers that make a halfway decent twin can't keep the things in stock. Twins were an insignificant part of skis sales 2 years ago, now they're a huge segment. The future of twins has everyone guessing...will the teenagers of today give up their twin tips when they become the family men of tomorrow? Many don't think so.

If by 'big thing,' you're talking about something that isn't a ski or snowboard, I honestly have no idea. I think the industry is leary of that sort of thing after many manufacturers lost bigtime trying to jump on the "snowblade" fad that last all of 12 months.
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