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Who is carving (perception v. reality)? - Page 11

post #301 of 318
Thread Starter 
BigE, your definitions are the ones that I have used for as long as I can remember.

Ghost, what is the reasonable precision of determining direction along a tangent when skiing? I would suggest that arcs in the snow such as those in the picture that slider posted above are good indications. The middle one has a bit of disengagement on the inside ski in the middle of the arc pictured, but otherwise all three look like carves to me.
post #302 of 318
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost
2. It is possible to skid with or without using your body to rotate the skis about an axis perpendicular to them.
It depends on what the definition of "skid" is. In my nomenclature, the answer is "no". However, in what I call a drifted turn, the answer is "yes". Some folks here on Epic do not draw a distinction between those two types of turns and call both of them skids.
post #303 of 318
Depends on what the meaning of is is....
Substitute drift for skid.

I think we can call it carving if the grove gets deeper due to the passage of the ski's tail.
post #304 of 318
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost
Depends on what the meaning of is is....
Substitute drift for skid.

I think we can call it carving if the grove gets deeper due to the passage of the ski's tail.
At least one person caught my turn of phrase!

I don't follow your second sentence... Help me out here?

I agree with your closing sentence.
post #305 of 318
I mean to say it is possible to drift a turn without using a skier supplied force to pivot the ski, thus avoiding the whole sliping the front, pushing the tails, flat-boarding thing.
post #306 of 318
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost
I mean to say it is possible to drift a turn without using a skier supplied force to pivot the ski, thus avoiding the whole sliping the front, pushing the tails, flat-boarding thing.
I agree. Is that different from what you read in my post?
post #307 of 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh
I agree. Is that different from what you read in my post?
No. I was responding to another post that said if you were not carving you were using rotary. A ski on snow has a slight decamber to it. You can roll it on edge and start turning without pivoting the ski around and still not be "carving" as I understand the term.
post #308 of 318
Exactly Ghost..I have no idea how rotation entered this discussion...Rotation may or may not cause the skis to skid. And skis may skid with or without rotation. Its really irrelevant to this particular discussion.

I think really this discussion is beaten to death at this point. Clearly not everyone agrees about what constitutes carving skis. I will end by just quoting from LeMaster and Elling.

From LeMaster's book pp40: "Pure carving is an ideal seldom, if ever, realized. Most turns made by most skiers involve a fair amount of skidding. Even the turns that feel carved to an expert skier have some degree of skidding in them."

Further down the page....

"In the case of of ideal, perfectly carved turn, there is no slowing component. There are no perfectly carved turns, however, and as soon as a turn deviates from the ideal, some slowing component appears. All the turns we make in the real world have some slowing component, and the distinction between what we call carved and skidded turns is not absolute"

From Mark Elling's book: pp 131

"Making your basic , carved turn is very simple; anyone can do it, and beginners often do it by accident"

I have nothing else to add....
post #309 of 318
It has taken me 2 days, but I have finally read all the posts. This is a great topic, SSH.

I think the underlying question here is "why do people think they are carving, when they are not". I believe it is a matter of relativity. If you go back to the old up unweight, twist method that so many people used for so many years and compare that to a scarved turn, it is "much more carved than not", so people think they are carving, and to some extent they are. Even though they are not making RR tracks, the tails are at least starting to go in the same direction as the tips and the use of rotary movements is lessened.

Also, you should question where in the turn they are carving. Most skiers will eventually be able to carve the bottom half of the turn where centrifgul force and gravity will bend the ski, and slope pitch will enable edging. Most will be unable to do so above the fall line. If you watch skiers from below it will often appear that they are carving relatively well throughout the turn, but watch that same skier from above and you will see that the top of the turn is skidded. So, these skier may think that they are carving because in fact the ski is carving for PART OF THE TURN.

Again, not RR tracks, but they are movements that are RELATIVELY closer to carving.
post #310 of 318

Ok

This is a lengthy thread and it all revolves around the one topic that reappears on this forum so often. "How do we ski" . A look through the archives will rediscover this thread many times.

It's a good topic. Most of life is just paying attention. The scientist in us will try to describe what we are doing. The artist in us will try to express what we have observed.

Pulling analogies from many "single track" mechanisms I have pieced together a satisfactory definition of "Carving" for my own purposes.

It's Flying a hard wing, riding a sticky race slick fitted motorcycle, a skate boarding in an empty pool, slalom on a deep skeg water ski.

It's not street shoes on ice, a speedway track bike, a wing at the brink of stall.

Here it is. My description. It's may not be yours.

"When the available "grip" used to effect a direction change exceeds the forces opposing that change ".

I am in the absolute camp. I have to be, I know the difference. It's not a situation based relativity. It's OK not to use all the available traction at any moment, to skid, but if you can carve, do it.... the smile is the final word. IT is a feeling, not an event.

"To those who do not know, words are not useful

To those who know, words are not required"

CalG
post #311 of 318
Thread Starter 
I also realized today while thinking about this thread that arc-to-arc has another benefit: it helps a skier understand when they are allowing the skis to arc on their edges. It helps them begin to feel the forces that they apply to the skis that--it seems to me--many do not realize they are doing and/or how to stop doing it.

Hence, arc-to-arc as a drill has value. Fortunately, it's also a kick to ski that way from time to time. Sometimes I do it virtually all day when I'm guiding guests around and they'd prefer to stick to the groomed blues...
post #312 of 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cgrandy
"When the available "grip" used to effect a direction change exceeds the forces opposing that change ".
I like it.
post #313 of 318
USSA manual came today. on page 43 I read:

"Carving by definition for the USST is a form of steering or turning on a semi-engaged edge. The National team staff makes a distinction between carving and arcing, which is a pure carved turn."

"Arcing is a turn on a completely engaged edge, where the tail follows the tip throughout the turn radius. In general terms, it is the fastest and most efficient turn possible"
post #314 of 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by slider
So are these carved turns or partly carved?




windshield wiping skidder specials, slider. you know that!

a real carve leaves no trace.:
post #315 of 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by uncle crud
windshield wiping skidder specials, slider. you know that!

a real carve leaves no trace.:
Your thinking about flat boarding
post #316 of 318
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dewdman42
USSA manual came today. on page 43 I read:

"Carving by definition for the USST is a form of steering or turning on a semi-engaged edge. The National team staff makes a distinction between carving and arcing, which is a pure carved turn."

"Arcing is a turn on a completely engaged edge, where the tail follows the tip throughout the turn radius. In general terms, it is the fastest and most efficient turn possible"
Thanks, dewd, that's truly useful to know!

It's especially nice to know that I'm using "arc" in the same way they are.
post #317 of 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by uncle crud
windshield wiping skidder specials, slider. you know that!

a real carve leaves no trace.:
Perhaps you could school me. :
post #318 of 318
uh, you break your funny bone lately?
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