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Who is carving (perception v. reality)? - Page 5

post #121 of 318
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE
I'm certain that the general public does not have the ability to determine what they are doing, especially given that few know what a fall-line is....
No doubt! Even I know that it is the direction that your body takes when you catch an edge...















post #122 of 318

Mr. Hulquist! Nice job!

Ya, way to be! Way to step right up
and show everybody your name and
handicap.

14.51 is respectable; and I'm so glad
that PSIA now makes ski racing a
requirement for certifications. I took
my first PSIA teaching clinic back in
1987 when I was just a wee lad of 16.
I had already been racing a few years
and thought many of the PSIA people
I taught with were "not good enough."

You're right that there's more to ski
racing than just carving, but carving
is the lion's share of going fast.

I hope you get more runs in Nastar
this year. It's not the same as a
big race, but it sure puts things
in perspective. I bet there are a
lot of guys talking here who would
kill for 14 handicap.
post #123 of 318

Just when I thought I was out they pull me back in

A lot of people who do not race or do not race at a high level (FIS, USSA, USSA MASTERS) look at things a bit too black and white.

Those the say force is centrip is pressure is load is missing the point.

Ghost pretty much nailed it above but to take a further, a concept can lead to a physical break through in how one applies weight to a ski or how one applies edge angle or where he/she stands at what point. Its very, very dynamic. If one misunderstands or doesn't at least play with "a concept" like "loading" then a whole world of dynamics may never open to them in their skiing.

I don't give a hoot about a PSIA Trainers interpretation of a how someone is skiing. I do give a hoot about how Bode or Hermann or Ted skied a particular course and what section won them the race. Are they carving all the time - of course not! Do the do whatever they do infinitly cleaner than you and I, obviously.

Being a sprint course (pro style) specialist I know what it takes to compete at the very high end of this type of racing, I have the quiver. I've proved it, no question about it.

Now I am going back after USSA Masters and having to move up from the 20's to the top 10. This will take me getting in better shape but more importantly opening my mind the concepts I've garnered by watching Bode, Benni, Hermann, and others ad nauseum. They don't ski the way PSIA trainer do. They ski the way world cup racers do - its as different as 10 Handicap in Golf and Tiger Woods. Its the quiver, its the dymanics, its the imagination.

So when I say load versus pressure, don't take it literally to the point you are trying to explain it with graphs, try to understand the concept of how you enter the turn with as little effort as possible and find the sweet spot immediately, then from there do whatever needs to be done. The movement patterns the allow this have changed in the last four years and Bode has been the vanguard.

Skiing racing is the only measure of how well you execute your turns, whether you are racing NASTAR, USSA or MASTERS, its the clock, baby. Its the clock. The rest of it don't mean _ _ _ _!
post #124 of 318
I have a question about Nastar. How is it possible for a 17 year old non racer, non instructor, non-trained skier to make two runs in a nastar course all season and still qualify for nationals? Does just about anyone qualify?
Later
GREG
post #125 of 318
Yes you can.
post #126 of 318
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TommyK
Ya, way to be! Way to step right up and show everybody your name and handicap.
Thank you. That's kind of you to say. FWIW, I thought my runs were terrible. I was skipping around quite a few of the gates, especially at and just past the roll on Copperopolis (where they set NASTAR after the national teams leave). It was ugly. But, at least I got the gold and passed my L II.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TommyK
14.51 is respectable; and I'm so glad that PSIA now makes ski racing a requirement for certifications. I took my first PSIA teaching clinic back in 1987 when I was just a wee lad of 16. I had already been racing a few years and thought many of the PSIA people I taught with were "not good enough."
I've got 10 years on ya, but I do know what you mean. I also find it interesting that they dropped the requirement from Gold to Silver in PSIA-RM (I don't know if racing is a requirement elsewhere). I have been unimpressed with a number of the instructors with whom I've skied since joining PSIA in fall '03. However, I have also been very impressed with a number of them, as well. Among those who have impressed me are the coaches for the ESA last year, Weems, Rusty Guy, and some of my colleagues at Copper. So, they're out there. And that's the good news.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TommyK
You're right that there's more to ski racing than just carving, but carving is the lion's share of going fast.
Maybe this tells you something about me: I don't find that carving is the focus for me in the course. I don't think about it, but rather recognize that it is my tactics that are limiting my time. I pick my line poorly at times, do not memorize the course or plan my turns so that I finish a turn in position to make a good next turn. I'm often late. That's my focus. That's why I think running a few more could make a big difference...especially if I actually did the work of racing instead of just got in the starting gate and took off down the course (which is what I did last year).
Quote:
Originally Posted by TommyK
I hope you get more runs in Nastar this year. It's not the same as a big race, but it sure puts things in perspective. I bet there are a lot of guys talking here who would kill for 14 handicap.
I may run it a few more times this year. We'll see. I can run it free when in uniform, but the times don't get posted. Perhaps some of my guests will want to give it a try this year...

Actually, on a non-powder day, it's probably worth running a few times. Of course, I have Metron:b5s, and they can't carve at over 25mph.
post #127 of 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier
I have a question about Nastar. How is it possible for a 17 year old non racer, non instructor, non-trained skier to make two runs in a nastar course all season and still qualify for nationals? Does just about anyone qualify?
Later
GREG
Things have changed a bit this year but leaving that, this last year for all intents and purposes, sure, they could take one run and if they are top three at their area in thier AGE GROUP and CATEGORY they can go to the Nationals. Will they do anything once there - no.

There is some confusion on ranking, however, it takes 5 races on 5 separate days to get a National Ranking. The best and worst are dropped out and the other three are averaged. So if some raced, say, twice, they are not Natinally Ranked in the Nastar database.

The only classes the will go to the Natoinals this year are the Platinum, Gold and Silver categories.

Just FYI
post #128 of 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Dranow
Things have changed a bit this year but leaving that, this last year for all intents and purposes, sure, they could take one run and if they are top three at their area in thier AGE GROUP and CATEGORY they can go to the Nationals. Will they do anything once there - no.

There is some confusion on ranking, however, it takes 5 races on 5 separate days to get a National Ranking. The best and worst are dropped out and the other three are averaged. So if some raced, say, twice, they are not Natinally Ranked in the Nastar database.

Just FYI
Rules may have changed since I races a few years ago. But I did qualify for the Nationals and then also place in the top 10 at Nationals for my age,ect. Just got lucky I guess.
post #129 of 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by slider
Rules may have changed since I races a few years ago. But I did qualify for the Nationals and then also place in the top 10 at Nationals for my age,ect. Just got lucky I guess.
congrats! In the lower categories, Top 10 doesn't take much. The Nationals are getting bigger, better and tougher each year. In the expert and pro categories, which are now Platinum and Gold, very, very different story. Come on out again! Its fun!
post #130 of 318
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Dranow
Skiing racing is the only measure of how well you execute your turns, whether you are racing NASTAR, USSA or MASTERS, its the clock, baby. Its the clock. The rest of it don't mean _ _ _ _!
While objectively you're probably right, this doesn't actually work for everyone. Why? Well, for example, for me, the course does not budge my fun meter. Yes, I've gotten golds in NASTAR three or four times, but each of those was in a different decade, since I only run NASTAR about once every 10 years. It's not that I can't or that I don't understand or anything else. It's just not nearly as much fun as busting down soft bumps in an open bowl, finding hidden powder stashes, or amping top-to-bottom runs with friends.

I actually enjoy standing at the top of the mountain checking out the views more than I do banging gates. ...and I'm an "ex-racer" (although not the kind of racer many of you are)...

I'm way slower than you in a course, Gary, but does that mean that we'd not be able to ski together on a powder day or other recreational outing and have a great time? I may even be able to show you some techniques to help you on steeps, bumps, deep snow, or some other conditions with which you're not familiar and I am...

The point is, again, that I don't think most folks are going to be willing to put in the time and focused effort necessary to get good at running gates. Also, not all race coaching is as good as that available to and/or offered by some of the folks here. And ski racing, like any competitive endeavor, requires the critical eye of a knowledgeable coach to help generate improvement.
post #131 of 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh
While objectively you're probably right, this doesn't actually work for everyone. Why? Well, for example, for me, the course does not budge my fun meter. Yes, I've gotten golds in NASTAR three or four times, but each of those was in a different decade, since I only run NASTAR about once every 10 years. It's not that I can't or that I don't understand or anything else. It's just not nearly as much fun as busting down soft bumps in an open bowl, finding hidden powder stashes, or amping top-to-bottom runs with friends.

I actually enjoy standing at the top of the mountain checking out the views more than I do banging gates. ...and I'm an "ex-racer" (although not the kind of racer many of you are)...

I'm way slower than you in a course, Gary, but does that mean that we'd not be able to ski together on a powder day or other recreational outing and have a great time? I may even be able to show you some techniques to help you on steeps, bumps, deep snow, or some other conditions with which you're not familiar and I am...

The point is, again, that I don't think most folks are going to be willing to put in the time and focused effort necessary to get good at running gates. Also, not all race coaching is as good as that available to and/or offered by some of the folks here. And ski racing, like any competitive endeavor, requires the critical eye of a knowledgeable coach to help generate improvement.
and there is the difference between the racer and the skier. We travel hundreds of miles, take two runs, sit in the chalet, take two more runs then go home - can you imagine? Most racers, however, are very, very accomplished all mountain skiers and most good coaches recommend to their kids - go off piste, a lot! The racer with feel will beat the pure technician day in and day out. I agree with you in the bigger picture. The skier that can adapt to all conditions is the complete skier, there is not one movement pattern for all conditions, in and out of the course.
post #132 of 318
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Dranow
and there is the difference between the racer and the skier. We travel hundreds of miles, take two runs, sit in the chalet, take two more runs then go home - can you imagine? Most racers, however, are very, very accomplished all mountain skiers and most good coaches recommend to their kids - go off piste, a lot! The racer with feel will beat the pure technician day in and day out. I agree with you in the bigger picture. The skier that can adapt to all conditions is the complete skier, there is not one movement pattern for all conditions, in and out of the course.
Absolutely right on with all points. What happened to me? I got hooked on the off-piste and never went back!

It didn't help that I had an idiot for a coach, either, and I just got tired of fighting it (without the personal funds to change that). :
post #133 of 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh
Absolutely right on with all points. What happened to me? I got hooked on the off-piste and never went back!

It didn't help that I had an idiot for a coach, either, and I just got tired of fighting it (without the personal funds to change that). :
Never too late to come back into the light - look at me - 12 years away and back taking a sniff at the top ?? in USSA MASTERS. Its funny, for 12 years I skied the chutes, cliffs, and now I'm back in the sticks and can't get out - go figure
post #134 of 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Dranow
congrats! In the lower categories, Top 10 doesn't take much. The Nationals are getting bigger, better and tougher each year. In the expert and pro categories, which are now Platinum and Gold, very, very different story. Come on out again! Its fun!
Well I've got 6 months to train.: But it was alot of fun. I'll see how the season develops. Thanks,Gary
post #135 of 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh
What is it about the narrow skis that makes it easy, in your experience? I find the opposite to be the case, so I'm interested to hear your thoughts on it. (Of course, I don't ski every day on 90+mm waisted skis.)
On a wider ski with little lift, you don't have nearly the leverage over the edge as you do on a narrow ski - it's harder to get the ski up on edge. Skidding is not typically a smooth thing - the ski grips and then releases. On a wider ski, every time it grips you get alot more force sent back to you, and much more binding flex. So when you try to scarve and edge agressively at a decent edge angle on hard snow, you get severe chatter if your edges are sharp.
post #136 of 318
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Highway Star
On a wider ski with little lift, you don't have nearly the leverage over the edge as you do on a narrow ski - it's harder to get the ski up on edge. Skidding is not typically a smooth thing - the ski grips and then releases. On a wider ski, every time it grips you get alot more force sent back to you, and much more binding flex. So when you try to scarve and edge agressively at a decent edge angle on hard snow, you get severe chatter if your edges are sharp.
For me, it's not about leverage, it's about subtlety and playing with the critical edge angle to feather the turn. In my experience, scarving means that you reduce your edge angle to the critical angle, then drop it a bit more to scarve the turn. Eski talked about this a bit in his book, especially the turn that he uses to scrub speed in narrow chutes.
post #137 of 318
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Dranow
Never too late to come back into the light - look at me - 12 years away and back taking a sniff at the top ?? in USSA MASTERS. Its funny, for 12 years I skied the chutes, cliffs, and now I'm back in the sticks and can't get out - go figure
Back into the light? You truly are deranged! A course over a chute? C'mon, man, who's got you blinded?

post #138 of 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh
For me, it's not about leverage, it's about subtlety and playing with the critical edge angle to feather the turn. In my experience, scarving means that you reduce your edge angle to the critical angle, then drop it a bit more to scarve the turn. Eski talked about this a bit in his book, especially the turn that he uses to scrub speed in narrow chutes.
Dudes! What's with this 90 under foot stuff? I'm completely mystified. Please explain. I still ski my GS boards in the Pow, Crud, bumps (not that I like them in the bumps) and ski my Slaloms in anything, nothing wider than 65 under foot. Perhaps I have closed my mind to something that I should be open to. Enlighten me why I'd go with something, say, wider than 75 under foot - ever?

In response to SSH - OF COURSE I'M BLIND - DUH
post #139 of 318
skiingman: The yellow line demonstrates that if a skier could make a standing leap from one rise line to the other, they could ski the shortest possible path. The shortest possible path is not a zigzag, as is often erroneously stated.

Huh? Do you somehow think that the "standing leap" is not part of the path? Of course the shortest path is a zigzag!
post #140 of 318
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Dranow
Dudes! What's with this 90 under foot stuff? I'm completely mystified. Please explain. I still ski my GS boards in the Pow, Crud, bumps (not that I like them in the bumps) and ski my Slaloms in anything, nothing wider than 65 under foot. Perhaps I have closed my mind to something that I should be open to. Enlighten me why I'd go with something, say, wider than 75 under foot - ever?
Oh, no you don't...

Not here!

Any discussions, take it back to the gear forums. Gary, for background, you could check these threads:

http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=29521
http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=31586
post #141 of 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh
Oh, no you don't...

Not here!

Any discussions, take it back to the gear forums. Gary, for background, you could check these threads:

http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=29521
http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=31586
Thank you, will investigate, I may even call Rossi and have them skip me a fat ski then come see you at copper :

Back to Carving for a second. I will be at Loveland Valley for the MASTERS GS's on the 10th and 11th then Keystone for the NASTAR pacesetter trials at Keystone on the 13 - 14th. Let's hook up!
post #142 of 318
Thread Starter 
Gary, let's do it! I'm scheduled at Copper on the 13th-14th, but not over the weekend or other days that week. Let me know what would work (PM or e-mail).
post #143 of 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh
Gary, let's do it! I'm scheduled at Copper on the 13th-14th, but not over the weekend or other days that week. Let me know what would work (PM or e-mail).
I believe TommyK is coming to the Loveland races as well, get yourself some thin sticks and join us! We can give you a birds eye view of what all the hubbub is about with WS
post #144 of 318
Thread Starter 
Gary, PM sent. Don't expect me to show up in my skintight GS suit...
post #145 of 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman
She truly must be an exceptional woman on many levels.
you are a baaaaad man
post #146 of 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh
For me, it's not about leverage, it's about subtlety and playing with the critical edge angle to feather the turn. In my experience, scarving means that you reduce your edge angle to the critical angle, then drop it a bit more to scarve the turn. Eski talked about this a bit in his book, especially the turn that he uses to scrub speed in narrow chutes.
That's exactly it. To scarve a wider ski, you either have to do it at a very low angle, or have very flexy (lots of play) bindings so the ski can flatten out more, or have very stiff bindings so the ski doesn't chatter, or have tons of lift.
post #147 of 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by TommyK
The answer is Nastar.
In my experience local NASTAR courses are not the answer. They are very simple, flat, and not at all challenging from a strength or athleticism standpoint. Thats why I've never run NASTAR.

...Except for one day in 2003 when I was hanging out with a girl who didn't want to ski the goods at Park City when I lived up there.

In that one day I took five runs on my Pocket Rockets. They have Fritschi Freerides on them. Admittedly, my handicap wasn't as low as yours. But I don't think 11.20 is "bad" for being on powder skis in a race course without any practice at all.
Quote:
You simply
cannot go very fast in a racecourse,
relative to anyone else, if no one
has ever taught you how to carve.
Quote:
Nastar in particular is the closest
thing we have to "the golfing standard."
The handicap system is quite accurate,
especially if one can race a Nastar
course over multiple days of a season.
No way. The USSA standards are far, far better. Mainly because the courses are all real courses set by real coursesetters and the competition is all real. The points system is hard to beat.
Quote:
So, "racers" like Skiingboy, who can
really type a lot of stuff on his widescreen
monitor, can race a few days on a
Nastar course and see what kind of
handicap he can score for himself.
Everyone can post their handicaps here
so we can all see it.
Well, like I said, I've only ever participated in five runs. One run I got a 27 handicap because I skied slow and let a girl beat me. I know, I know, I should have been competing to my best ability....but I was more interested in "winning" something else that day. The other runs were all pretty much the same 11.xx.

It'd be interesting to see what kind of score I could get if I put the gimpsuit back on and waxed up the GS boards and took some runs up at Taos. I ran their NASTAR course last year on all mountain skis and beat the posted pace time (again, racing a girl for fun) but I only paid for the timed run, not the NASTAR run. I didn't anticipate that I'd have to "put up or shut up" on the interweb.

Now, you are older than me by a good bit, so what does an 11 handicap at age 18 compare to older guy's better handicap? The four kids faster than me that day were all in my age group. I honestly have no idea how the NASTAR system really works, its a black box to me. I understand its been changed too.

Your NASTAR dot com photo shows you in all the getup. Do you go like that to run the dailies? If I'm in your neighborhood some time, I'll gladly bring the GS boards and run you...could be fun. I don't mind getting beat by an old dude, but then again I might just beat you.
Quote:
Tommy Kirchhoff KIR439 04-05 State adjusted handicap: 6.11
Gary Dranow DRA160 04-05 State adjusted handicap: 1.06
Gary is a fast, smooth skier. I enjoy watching vids of him ski. He reminds me of a masters racer in Upstate NY that I watch a lot. Very smooth, never hurts the snow, and I bet he ALWAYS finishes.

I don't believe I've seen vid of your skiing, but hey, the results speak for themselves. Congrats on knowing how to carve.

http://www.nastar.com/index.jsp?page...61 &year=2003

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomB
Huh? Do you somehow think that the "standing leap" is not part of the path? Of course the shortest path is a zigzag!
The standing leap is part of the path, but not in the sense that matters. The leap is all energy the skier is adding "for free" without frictional forces being created by the snow as the skier carves a turn. The physics shows that the greater the magnitude of turn, the more energy will be transferred from the skier moving down the hill to heating the snow up. This is one of many reasons why a pure RR track turn entry isn't at all the fastest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary
and there is the difference between the racer and the skier. We travel hundreds of miles, take two runs, sit in the chalet, take two more runs then go home - can you imagine?
LOL, sure can imagine. Of course I've also been known to get my entry, pick up my ticket, see 12 inches of fresh, and proceed to run a pair of nice DNS'es.

One day a couple years ago I was at a night slalom and was having so much fun on perfect snow making SL turns on a short little run around while all the other guys were freezing their butts off waiting at the course start. Well, I kinda overdid it and by my second run my legs were absolute jelly...DNF...oops! It was still an absolute ton of fun.

I think if there were a way for skiers to get involved in real racing without all the elitism and exclusivity and BS more skiers would think it was fun. SSH might not get his fun meter going on a 18 second NASTAR course, but what about a 55 gate SL on a great run, or a techy GS on a turny, knoll-packed run with fences that always see some use even in the GS. Huge fun.
post #148 of 318
Quote:
Gary is a fast, smooth skier. I enjoy watching vids of him ski. He reminds me of a masters racer in Upstate NY that I watch a lot. Very smooth, never hurts the snow, and I bet he ALWAYS finishes. -Skiingman
Well now, thanks for the props. The truth is in sprint racing I ALWAYS finish. In Masters up until the last half of this season I was Clyde Crashkoff. Then I finished 18 runs in a row while picking up places.

I won't plug what I owe it all to. But thanks again for the props! You make it up to Park City or Snowbasin on a NASTAR day (they have a real course) we should have a grand mamalship race - for sure! The old dudes (one really old dude) against the youngter, there isn't more fun than that (IMHO).

BTW SM - you've got to make it out - nice Pic! You ain't no 11 HC, something ain't right :

post #149 of 318
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by skiingman
I think if there were a way for skiers to get involved in real racing without all the elitism and exclusivity and BS more skiers would think it was fun. SSH might not get his fun meter going on a 18 second NASTAR course, but what about a 55 gate SL on a great run, or a techy GS on a turny, knoll-packed run with fences that always see some use even in the GS. Huge fun.
You hit it in the first sentence, skiingman. I'd probably like giving this a try, but can't see gearing up for it and standing around. I didn't even like that when I was team captain...
post #150 of 318
I don't think I would like all the lining up, waiting for your turn, registering, etcetera; I just want to ski. On the other hand if they had a DH course set up with a toll gate, like the ring road coarse in Germany for cars/bikes, I would be 1st in line with my credit card.
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