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Atomic 10.20 tuning question

post #1 of 21
Thread Starter 
As I understand it, my edges have a 1* bottom bevel and a 3* side bevel from the factory. My local ski shop here in Boston told me I was full of it when I mentioned this, and that a 90/90 edge would do me just fine. I say fook that...I want them as they are supposed to be bevelled. What's the deal...do they come like this from Atomic, with this factory bevel tune? Need I look into getting a file tool with adjustable edge/base bevel?
post #2 of 21
That's right,CP, fook that! Leave the 1&3 alone. I owned last years 1020 and went 1&2 and took alot of life out of the ski putting the 3 back in.
post #3 of 21
I can't imagine any informed shop telling you not to have any bevels. 90/90 will dig in and not want to let go. See the tuning advice section at www.tognar.com For all mountain, 1/1 base/side is good. Atomic's 1/3 can't hurt you either, although keep a gummi stone handy in case the edge is just too aggressive.
post #4 of 21
Thread Starter 
Point taken....fook'em. 1* X 3* it is then. I'll be carving up that blue ice like no other next Monday at Stratton!
post #5 of 21
Yeah, what they said.
post #6 of 21

Do everyone here a favor and name the shop that sais 90x90 is just fine. No one wants to have their skis ruined by those guys...

post #7 of 21
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Do everyone here a favor and name the shop that sais 90x90 is just fine. No one wants to have their skis ruined by those guys... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wait! The problem with doing that is that it was a shop employee who said that; not the shop. What if I said something stupid on this forum that an outsider read? Does that mean that this forum as a collective whole supports my stupid comments?

Go back to the shop; call them. Reintroduce the question to their hardgoods manager and other key employees. If you get a resounding "yes we believe in the 90/90 bevel", then name the shop.

Better yet, invite them (the shop) to this forum to support their position; and/or learn from others here. Everyone learns everyday. Be tolerant of that. Let them learn and grow without having to suffer damage to their livelihood.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ December 18, 2001 07:53 AM: Message edited 1 time, by PinHed ]</font>
post #8 of 21
No. Name the shop. Any good shop needs to train their employees, especially the ones who are to give out technical advise. This is terrible.

It is really insane that the employee would not know this, and contradict you. Anybody who knows anything about tuning skis knows what edge bevel is, and the ballpark settings.

Run, run away, FAST!

I live in the greater Boston area, and this is the only place I would let touch my skis:

"The Ski Shop"
1000 Worcester Road
Framingham, MA 01702
(508) 875-6905

Talk to Mike, he's the guru. He was the Volkl product manager for about many years, and now he does some of the nicest tunes in New England. I happily paid $85 (!!!!) for a grind and hand tune on my '98 WC race stock (actually '99 2nd tier RS) volkl P30 race carver racings. Mike knew the history of the ski and how to tune it for the best peformance. Tell them Kevin sent you, they seem to have remembered me.

post #9 of 21
I spoke with Mike Desantis at The Ski Shop. Wow, what a super nice, well spoken, knowledgeable individual. He had worked with Volkl, USA for several years in addition to many other ski industry pursuits. Now he's a retailer.
I too worked for Gunther Yokl (Volkl USA distribution), 18 years ago.
I've tuned my share of skis, twisted my share of binding screws and nursed bloody knuckles from boot fitting.
Kevin knows my friend Jim from Precision Ski in Frisco. Jim is the only person I trust to tune my boards.

Will continue this within the hour...

I asked Mike what he thought about advertising a particular retailer on a world wide e-forum as a bad retailer based on just the information in this thread? Your guru agrees with me. It's not fair.

If you go to a specialty shop for goods and service, then it's up to you to be informed; ask the right questions; make an informed decision. Don't like what you are hearing? Then leave. But blast them here? No. You are doing a BIG disservice to skiers who read your "this is a bad retailer".

Everyone here needs to know how to be a good ski consumer. You telling us that this guy is bad will make others complacent; they won't do their homework on a shop's ability and reputation. They just take your word and run with it.

Shop employees come and go every season. Some are good; some suck. Everytime you go to a shop, especially for ski service, reevaluate their competency. When I go to Jim for a tune, I always ask who's doing the work. If I don't know them; if they're new, I start asking questions. And Jim always lets me know how much he appreciates my being a tough customer because it keeps his employees on their toes.

CP went to a shop that he believed to be a good choice for tune service. Am I right here? What he received was a stupid comment from an employee. CP, ask to talk to the equipment manager. After all, you chose this shop as a possible candidate for service. Think of it as giving back to the sport you love by allowing the employee to learn about beveling. Maybe he'll become the next Mike Desantis.

Here's an anecdotal recent situation:
Recently, my wife dropped her skis, bindings and boots off for a mount to Wildernest Sports in Frisco, CO. Wildernest has a great rep for tele mounts. She went back to pick up the finished product only to find that they had lost her Garmont Squadras with her very spendy orthotics in them. They were put on the demo shelf with the other demo boots. They found her boots within 20 minutes. The employee who was helping her chided her for not having her name on her boots. Later she went back to talk to a manager about this. The manager spoke with the employee and straightened the situation out and gave her a free pair of leashes.

If she hadn't gone back and simply dismissed the shop as a bad one then she would have been too hasty. As it turned out, she allowed an opportunity of growth to occur by going back and dealing with unfinished business. She did the right thing.

The point is, you have to give people a chance to correct their mistakes and to improve.

I know who's doing my tunes when I move to Maine this year. Mike is the man. How do I know this? Not because you said so. Because I did my own homework. But thanks for the tip.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ December 18, 2001 09:58 AM: Message edited 2 times, by PinHed ]</font>
post #10 of 21
Hold on a sec here....

"CP went to a shop that he believed to be a good choice for tune service. Am I right here? What he received was a stupid comment from an employee."

Go back and read the original post:

"As I understand it, my edges have a 1* bottom bevel and a 3* side bevel from the factory. My local ski shop here in Boston told me I was full of it when I mentioned this, and that a 90/90 edge would do me just fine."

First of all, not being from MA, you give our local ski shops here, and CP's choice in shops, WAY too much credit. We suffer from a high density of wealthy, "recreational" skiers, which gives the opportunity for shops of marginal quality to survive. He's just going the local shop.

Second, that statement is totally out of line for anyone selling skis, tuning skis, taking in skis for a tune, etc, while working in a ski shop. I've done my time in a shop and I know how bad shop tunes can be. Our two main techs also tuned bikes in the summer and were just as "quick and dirty" at that ---> "What's edge bevel?..….." You would not believe what they used to do side edges with…. scary. This is a large shop in a large city in western MA.

CP needs to elaborate on this situation, what the circumstances of this shop visit were. It could be just a rogue employee, which still doesn't excuse it, but it very well could be their head tech.

Mike is wise to not get involved in this. He has no need badmouth anybody. His high quality of work makes people recommend him, and throws into greater contrast how poor the tuning in some other shops actually is.

I feel I'm a fair person, and thus I have no qualms about badmouthing something if I have a reason to. BUT, we have only established so far:

1. Someone who doesn't know the basics of beveling is ill qualified to tune skis.
2. Someone who doesn't know the basics of beveling is ill qualified to advise about the tuning of skis.
3. The shop that hired this person to represent them possibly has some of the following problems:
a. Failed to train this employee effectively
b. Flaws in management (who should give what advise)
c. A gap in their overall technical expertise, as a shop

I have not said this is a bad shop, it's just that those bevel statements REALLY frighten me.

By all means, it would be great if everyone knew everything about tuning, but the reality is that the VAST majority of skiers doesn't know ANYTHING, and ARE complacent! If I, someone who has nothing to gain and a pretty good knowledge and experience base, can point people away from a questionable shop to good shop, or at least help someone know what to look for in a shop, then I firmly believe I am doing a good thing.


<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ December 18, 2001 01:20 PM: Message edited 1 time, by Red Sled ]</font>
post #11 of 21
Sled, you really must like rojo, with "it could be just a rouge employee."
post #12 of 21
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Mike is wise to not get involved in this. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, he wanted to know which shop. Why? Because as he said:
"I'm more than willing to teach good ski tune practices to whomever will listen. I've written lots of articles on the subject and done a lot of free clinics specifically towards that goal. After all, I can't tune all the skis of the world and I'm tired of getting skis in my shop that have been butchered by other service techs."

RedSled, I think we agree fundamentally. All I'm asking is that we all take responsibility as consumers. And, don't hang retailers out to dry because of one mistake or scant information. Do drill them, grill them, and be a pain in their ass. It's our job as good consumers holding $1000.00 worth of our gear!

BTW, Love ya man.

Made turns on my new atomic TM20's today. What a sweet ski! :
post #13 of 21
Thread Starter 
Alright folks....

First off, my name is Cy. CP are my initials. Been here for a year and a half...but don't post much.

I figured I'd give this shop a try as it has been highly recommended by many here to go to for footbeds. Their head guy is "the best" when it comes to fitting these things. Not to name names, but it's the shop closest to the Comm Ave/Brighton Ave split across from the Star Market.

I went in there to check out the shop. Looked around for a good 25 minutes. A manager even made a comment..."I saw you come in...and figured you would ask if you needed any help." Big ++++ in my book. I hate getting accosted by over-anxious employees at any consumer venue(car dealers rate very high..or low on that list).

So I browse around for a bit...check out the ski stuff, look at the camping gear, some shoes for my clip-ins(was riding my bike that day), and finally return to the ski "wall." It's around 7:30pm, and the shop is pretty empty...it's late October in MA.

Mmmm...beer....sorry...long day at the office ;^)

So I am at this place on the recommendation of a few of you about the footbeds and the "primary" fitter. Coincidentally, there's a guy there who's getting fitted for some of these footbeds. A shop guy is doing the fitting, and another is watching...shooting the shite with both of them. I wear Lange's, and bring up the fact that they don't carry the line. They are the only boot that fits my foot. A little history...

I went to school at UVM...so skied at Stowe for 4 seasons straight...hard. 85 days my junior year. Found Inner Bootworks(right next to the Matterhorn for those of you familiar w/ Stowe) my freshman year..parent's weekend actually. Went in and bought a new pair of Lange's. Now, this shop has enjoyed the media praise from numerous ski mags. They fit them to my high arch/skinny-ass calves. Got some foot beds while there. Returned 3 years later and bought a new set of liners....the old ones were shot. Then bought some "power straps" on a recommendation from a racer friend while at Stratton last season. These solved the problem of the thin little velcro straps loosening up over the course of the day on the slopes. I can't give them enough praise.

So, back to Boston...

I engage the footbed guy in conversation...his buddy chiming in the entire time. I give them my history, and they reccommend getting new boots. Loving my current boots and refusing to buy new boots, they then say to at least get new footbeds...to the tune of $175. Yeah right. I ask about "the boot fitter" I've heard about, and he aparently has been doing it for 20 years, but isn't around at the time. So I take all the hard-sale talk, and move on to the tuning of my Atomics. Scroll back to my initial post to see what they said.

So, they say a 90/90 tune is what I should be getting...2 of them, mind you. Which is why I think they're full of it. Never heard of the details of the factory Atomic tune for the edges? See ya. I'll go back to my local shop in CT to get these skis tuned I guess...cuz they know what to do. Should I say something about this visit to a manager? Should I just tell them how I want the skis tuned(only get a grind once a year) and hope they do a 89*/87* tune? Or should I add an adge beveler to my crash box and do them myself...as usual?

Thanks for the responses guys. HTH.

post #14 of 21
The first time I met Mike, he was talking to a father and son about the tune he was putting on the kid's race skis, how he would do it, and how to perform basic upkeep. Mike has a realistic and positive outlook on the ski industry and what he can do for it. He set up shop where he did because there is a high skier per capita, there is money, and a lack of really good tuners. He really wants to bring knowledge and good tunes to the public.

Cy - My younger brother actually used to tune at the snowboard shop, the Snowboard Addic that shares the building with The Inner Boot Works, and that Ski Demo Center. They'd set me up with some demo's whenever I was up there.

All - Maybe the Boston shop in question deserves a chance to learn, but they don't deserve my business. I fell sorry for all the poor folks who may have had their skis mis-tuned by them. As far a people learning about tuning and becoming a knowledgeable…. well, don't you think that the ski shop, the one that charges for services, should show some initiative and learn how to tune skis, and train it's employees appropriately? I mean, these employees seem really well trained in selling……right?

post #15 of 21
I don't even know where to tell you to go but any shithouse tuneshop should know, and I don't know alot to post, but I post what I do know...1&3...period...if they try to talk you out of that or even question what you're asking, suffer on your factory tune for one mo9re day. Trust me...I don't ski much better than I play golf, but damn do I want my serviceman to know my EQUIPP!!! Atomics roll on 1&3 period...if we knew more we'd work for atomic...RIGHT? have agood nite, NIKKI!-----
post #16 of 21
Oops! I recently got talked into 1 & 1 on my BetaRace 9.20's by Village Ski and Snowboard in Franklin, MA (good folks, good shop - they have a Wintersteiger machine and everything) after showing them BetaRacer's 1 & 3 recommendations from last season and emphasizing that I wanted to be able to 'carve boilerplate'. The shop's tuner said he raced college GS on BetaRace 10.26's w/ 1 & 1 very successfully last season - said 3 degree side bevel will be sharp but shorten the life of the edges. (Atomic doesn't give me my skis for free!) I bought the arguement. Now it looks like I may have made a mistake, huh? I'll let you guys know my reaction after I ski on them next Wednesday, 12/26. Paranoid, who me?
post #17 of 21
Tominator, I live sort of close by...I'd let a blacksmith do my tune before village ski...They think they know all, and just because you've skied the ravine @mt.washington, doesn't mean you can run wintersteiger...trust me on this one. Rich is a bitch!!! And all they care about are the people buying 9.18's in silver and the $500 jackets. Franklin's no ski town...look around. Later, and good luck.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ December 23, 2001 02:18 PM: Message edited 1 time, by NIKKI ]</font>
post #18 of 21
Uh-Oh! Thanks, NIKKI (I think)! Well, I went to this shop - my 1st time there - BECAUSE they had a Wintersteiger machine. We'll see! (I'll let you guys know.)
post #19 of 21
Not busting on your tune, Tominator. Just the "Good skiers...Village Idiots"! Good luck man, and merry christmas.
post #20 of 21
Hey, no problem NIKKI. That's what I come here for - to learn useful stuff. Skied on 'em yesterday, and it wasn't a bad tune. But the 1 degree side bevel is definitely less tenacious on the hard stuff. I'll go back to 1 and 3. If my edges wear out, I'll have an excuse to spring for a pair of BetaRace 9.16's! Live and learn!
post #21 of 21
I'm sure that there's room for this to be incorrect, but I'm pretty sure taking the factory 1/3 bevel to a 1/1 bevel will require losing a lot more edge in that process alone than would touching up the 1/3 bevel frequently. You'd be chopping the edge off, literally.


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