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post #1 of 13
Thread Starter 
At the end of my wifes lesson, I was listening to the instructor(one of Jeannie Thorens proteges)talk about canting. She pointed over to me and that I was in serious need of canting(knock kneed).

Now back in the old days when I was racing they had ground down the soles of my skiboots to cant them.

The question I have is with the newer technologies is it necessary to grind the sole or is it enough to use the boots canting system that is already there? :

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ January 14, 2002 08:42 AM: Message edited 1 time, by coldfeet ]</font>
post #2 of 13
Many modern boots can be adjusted to cope with most situations. Your best bet is to go to a local boot specialist, and get them to sort it out for you.
I wouldn't consider grinding the soles of your boots as this may adversely affect the release mechanisms in the bindings.

(Spot the consultant - many/most/may, and then I tell him to go somewhere else to get the real solution. I'm good. Change that, I'm a pro )

post #3 of 13
Find a shop that is skilled in the alignment process cycle (footbed, cuff/ramp/forward-lean, canting (in that order)). But that is only a start. On snow evaluation and followup is needed if you want to really get it right. The book "The Athletic Skier" by Witherall & Evrard is a great read with good alignment process info.

Boots can be ground, but top of heel/toe needs to be built-up and leveled to sole DIN specs to maintain boot/binding release integrity.

Cant (wedge) strips installed under the bindings are a more common solution.

Well worth the effort/cost. The ability you use to compensate for alignment issues is ability subtracted from your performance and learning potential.

post #4 of 13
I think it's fine and good to say alignment should be done right. However, I think that that this is not a science and there is no exact solution. As such I am interested in what people think about modification of cuff canting to test (or make) changes in alignment.

For example, suppose someone has their alignment assessed and ends up with a footbed, cuff alignment, and cants (or a boot sole grind). Initially they notice a sizeable improvement but with time still feel there is a difference between turns to one side and the other. Certainly they can play with wedges between the boot heel and binding but even if they find improvement is it worth redoing the cants (or if they had a boot grind - to redo it?)? It seems to me that if they have an easily adjustable cuff cant adjustment they might be able to make small adjustments to their benefit. I know this slightly changes the alignment at the ankle of the lower leg and foot but is this really a big issue for small changes?

In many people's minds this type of cuff (dirty) canting is a no no. I'm not sure I completely agree. I'd like to hear both sides of the argument.
post #5 of 13
Cuff canting might get you from big compensations to small, or from small to unapparent, but not to non-existent unless that was the only appropriate adjustment needed. I have always dialed in with under binging cants before grinding my boots.
post #6 of 13
moving to gear forum but will post a response later.
post #7 of 13
The human body is an amazing bit of engineering. When things don't line up correctly we have the ability to adjust and compensate for a great deal of differences. Last year we skied with an instructor Lyle at the Canyons. Talk about an amazing example of this. He was skiing without one hip (totally shot hip joint) You could really tell when he walked but on skis, you would not have known without really watching carefully. (at least to an untrained eye, he should have had the hip replacement surgury by now)

That being said alignment/canting can be a great tool in helping us all approach that "ski God" status so many of us are looking for. I am a lucky enough one that the footbeds and little bit of cuff cant pretty much does it for me.

Boot grinding or sole planing can be accomplished with out having to "build up the top" I believe most of the shops now plane the bottom to set whatever "cant" they are trying to get, then they add lifts or shims to the bottom of the boot to add some thickness back. this also creates a little more lift/leverage for the skier. It also makes it so you have "replaceable treds" that can be removed and replaced when they wear out without affecting the cant. They then use a special router and cut a new top edge of the boot/binding interface so that the boot conforms to the DIN standard.

By using boot canting and not under binding cants, it allows you to rent/demo, use different skis and swap your ski's left and right without having to worry about changing the cant.

This is just my simple understanding of part of the canting process..
post #8 of 13
coldfeet, my wife has a pair of Dalbello SGS boots with soles that are hinged lengthwise. After standing on the Dalbello canting machine with the soles being allowed to swivel, the person doing thecanting will tighten the two screws on both sides of the boot and the canting is set.

At any time they can be readjusted if need be and any ski can be skied without doing any canting to the bindings.

Unfortunately her boots were about a half size too small (7 to 7-1/2) and she needs larger ones so she has hers for sale at half price. They retail for $400.

I put up a picture in another thread if you want to take a look, the screws are obvious only if you know whast to look for. They are adjustable in all planes, forward lean and ramping, along with canting.

Check out the thread >Boots for wide calves< in this forum.

post #9 of 13
I've been putting off grinding my boot soles for my canting because I've been afraid that if the canting doesn't work for me, that I'll be stuck with it once the soles are ground down. I got new boots this year and spent quite a bit of time getting the fit fine-tuned. Your way of using the cants under the bindings to dial-in the adjustments, sounds like an excellant idea. Maybe I should do the same before commiting to a sole grind.

How are the binding cants installed and are there any problems with the binding coming loose after playing with the cants?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Arcmeister:
I have always dialed in with under binding cants before grinding my boots.
post #10 of 13
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Si:
...It seems to me that if they have an easily adjustable cuff cant adjustment they might be able to make small adjustments to their benefit. I know this slightly changes the alignment at the ankle of the lower leg and foot but is this really a big issue for small changes? ... In many people's minds this type of cuff (dirty) canting is a no no. I'm not sure I completely agree. I'd like to hear both sides of the argument.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Si -

Unless there is a problem related to severely limited range of the ankle joint, I agree with you totally, and for the reason that you just gave: Two degrees difference in how the ski is laying on the snow will make an enormous difference, but two degrees difference in ankle angle is of much less consequence.

In fact, for the sake of argument, I'll go you one further. I would say that if you have (a) enough range of adjustment in the boot shaft angle, and (b) have either a fairly "normal" foot or an orthotic that will bring your foot into alignment, then you can use this very convenient adjustment mechanism to verify (on-snow) a proposed cant angle before doing any irreversible grinding and without undertaking the more tedious process of installing and changing a series of under-binding wedges.

In fact, I have used this procedure on my Tecnica Icon XR's to emperically determine that I need about 2 deg on the inside of one leg and 1.5 degrees on the other. With the cuffs in this position, the outside of each foot is, of course, being forced up at the ankle relative to my lower leg.

Fortunately, this was easy to counteract in this particular model of boot. They incorporate a screw driven wedge under center of the the footbed that roughly allows you to adjust the posting angle of the footbed. Between these two adjustments, I have found a *very* comfortable and effective foot/leg environment for skiing.

Once I have lived with these settings for a while, and establish that these cant angles are OK, I will probably have the boot bottoms ground to these angles and be able to return the cuffs (and moveable wedge) to the centers of their ranges and iterate from there (if necessary).

While people usually think of the base of the boot as fixed, and that the cuff moves side to side above it, I think that one can quite properly consider the angle of the lower leg to be the reference so that adjusting the shaft angle adjusts the angle of the bottom of the boot with respect to vertical.

Tom / PM

PS - BTW, I fully realize that the screw driven wedge in these boots is really to adjust for high or low arches, but with a thin but stiff piece of plastic between it and the footbed, it becomes an effective, adjustable posting angle control.
post #11 of 13
Here's a dichotomy I ran into. If anyone can explain it let me know.

I moved my canting from under the binding to inside the boot (described in a previous post). Originally (before hip replacement surgery) they were 2.5 degrees thick side out on the left and 2 degrees thick side out on the right. When I got new skis it seemed like I might be able to get rid of the cants on the right based on testing with different thickness wedges between boot and binding.

I first put (within the boot) a 2 degree cant on the left and none on the right. A definite improvement.

After a few days I felt the right wasn't correct and added a 2 degree cant on that side. Then it was even better than the left.

To add a little more to the left side I then moved the cuff in towards the middle a bit (a similar effect to adding more thick side out cant) but it made things worse.

However, moving the cuff out, the other way seemed like an improvement.

Does this make sense to anyone on a theoretical basis?
post #12 of 13
Sort of makes sense.

I think a better way to think about your canting is to work on the boot bottom/bed first. Get your feet so you can stand flat. I think the next procedure was to put your foot beds in your boots without liner while standing flat and centered in your boots (footbeds) 5 1/2 inches between your boots (where the inside edges/bases of the boots are parallel and 5 1/2 apart. Look straight ahead and have someone look at the space on the edges of your legs. The space left and right to the cuff should be equal. If not, make them equal by adjusting the cuff.

After talking with GMOLFOOT at length, there is no "blanket" way to do all the adjustments. and no perfect formula. Sometimes things that should not make any sense work and sometimes doing the opposite of what you expect to work, will be the right thing for someone. Just like people, we are all made differently. I never thought a duck footed person with bow legs would be helped by heel lifts and almost no cuff cant but that seemed to help my friend the best. We all thought the max cant on the boot would be best. :
post #13 of 13
Thread Starter 
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ott Gangl:

Unfortunately her boots were about a half size too small (7 to 7-1/2) and she needs larger ones so she has hers for sale at half price. They retail for $400.


Ott, She has a bit larger feet. size 10 and 5'10" tall. It comes from her Bavarian side of the family.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ January 15, 2002 08:44 AM: Message edited 1 time, by coldfeet ]</font>
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