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I give up - Page 4

post #91 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by Highway Star
No, I am just being misquoted. Please re-read my posts on the previous page. I concluded:

"my experience with other atomics and other short sidecut skis leaves me with the conclusion that the short radius metrons are most likely far more limiting than you are describing, and that the major reason you find them a good choice, is that you don't ski particularly fast and agressively. If you don't spend much time above 25 mph, and like short turns, I'm sure they are fantastic."

And:

"If you do indeed ski at over 25mph regularly, I suggest buying a ski with around a 20m sidecut, so you aren't constantly skiddering down the hill."

Point being, is that you basicly run out of sidecut on a 12m radius ski at around 25 mph. By 30 mph you are really pushing it...you may still be able to do a skiddered, semicarved turn while oversking the sidecut or underedge the ski on soft snow to make a clean arc. At 35mph there is no way in hell you'll be able to make an agressively edged carved turn, or any carved turn really.

Don't get me wrong, 20-25 mph is a pretty good clip, that's faster than alot of people ski at. However, I grew up skiing fast and racing GS, and typically freeski faster than that, around 35-40 mph - thus I am most comfortable on skis in the 20m to 30m radius range.
"What we have heah, is a failure to communicate".... some movie I saw on latenight tv years ago.

Sounds reasonable to me. If I understand correctly, your saying it's not a ski you would reccommend for 30+ mph turns. However, let's consider two things: skiing methods and snow conditions.

Overskiing the sidecut is probably a perfectly acceptable thing for a lot of people, the people who don't emulate DH racers, have no race training, and are perfectly happy tipping the ski and using fore-aft balance to have the snow turn the skis. I'm sure there are many good "old-style" skiers who don't really carve all that well on old straight skis, but still like skiing at 35mph. And for the others, let's not forget how smooth a scarved turn feels on a well damped ski on groomed snow (as opposed to what passes for snow on some of our eastern hills, the grooved pavement made of ice from melted and then refrozen corduroy).

On soft snow, snow where the skis sinks way into the snow and the interesection of the ski with the snow is in fact a relatively large (edit: oops not 3 unless you consider the compaction of the snow behind the area)2-D plane area, the bottom of the ski is doing the work and edge effects are secondary. The middle of the edge need not even be contacting the snow as the ski rides through the groove cut by the tip, but does not "fill" the groove. On hard snow only the intersection of the ski and the snow surface is closer to the theoretical (oops) 1-D "edge"

I think you have a very good hypothesis in "not good for carving 30+mph turns". I have no doubt that your conclusion is true for eastern snow conditions, but your conclusion may be premature FOR SOFTER SNOW.
post #92 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by Highway Star
No, I am just being misquoted. Please re-read my posts on the previous page. I concluded:

"my experience with other atomics and other short sidecut skis leaves me with the conclusion that the short radius metrons are most likely far more limiting than you are describing, and that the major reason you find them a good choice, is that you don't ski particularly fast and agressively. If you don't spend much time above 25 mph, and like short turns, I'm sure they are fantastic."

And:

"If you do indeed ski at over 25mph regularly, I suggest buying a ski with around a 20m sidecut, so you aren't constantly skiddering down the hill."
These quotes are a significant backpedal from your earlier rhetoric. These are all reasonable, and clearly stated as your opinion having not skied them. I still think you'd be surprised at their effectiveness, even if you still don't like them for your own skiing. I fit your demographic where they don't work, and my tracks communicate that I am carving cleanly. So, it's your theory that may not hold in a number of cases (including my own). But, thanks for communicating it as a theory, not a fact.

For reference, here is what you had said before:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Highway Star
Again, I find it physically impossible that a 172 cm, 12m radius ski a wise choice as an all mountain ski for a 180 lb advanced skier. No matter what blend of construction, design or format Atomic has come up with, you are signifigantly compromising in way to many areas of performance, for improvements in:

1. Short turn carving.
2. Low swing weight.

To me, to compromise in everthing else just doesn't make sense.
post #93 of 113
Ghost, that's a great post! With the mellowed statements from HS that you quote and your insights into how the skis create their arc, we have a lot more ability to effectively converse on this topic.

Thank you!
post #94 of 113
I'd like to quote something here Powder magazine took from Bode Miller:

"... a lot of racers trained & developed by the team make very few mistakes... They look good - no sitting back, no arms waving wildly on the course - but they still don't have winning times....
...For me, winning the world cup off my edges and in the backseat was the most objective standard available to disprove the Lords of the Impossible, the people for whom nothing ever changes but the day.
... I hoped an overall victory might shout out - to poets and shot-putters alike - to trust themselves, to ignore the built-in limitations that all systems impose"

Myself, I find that innovation in anything doesn't come from drone-like acceptance of mainstream beliefs - - it more often comes from those most willing to think for themselves regardless of what other think.

Highway Star is refreshing in that he's willing to go out on a limb despite heaps of adversity. It's too bad there weren't more people like this in the world rather than the, "well i've been skiing for 50 years with all the greatest skiers of our day and have forgotten more about this sport than you'll ever know" types.

But I guess then that "innovation" wouldn't be all that innovative.

As far as his slant on skis, I tend to agree with HS whole-heartedly that while a 172cm, 11m radius ski may be a lot of fun, it's not for me and it certainly doesn't come close to being a "do-all" ski... and, no, I guess I don't really have to try it to know. Engineering background or not, you don't need to drive a 20' water-ski boat though big coastal chop to know its not the right tool for the situation.
post #95 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheapseats
I'd like to quote something here Powder magazine took from Bode Miller:

"... a lot of racers trained & developed by the team make very few mistakes... They look good - no sitting back, no arms waving wildly on the course - but they still don't have winning times....
...For me, winning the world cup off my edges and in the backseat was the most objective standard available to disprove the Lords of the Impossible, the people for whom nothing ever changes but the day.
... I hoped an overall victory might shout out - to poets and shot-putters alike - to trust themselves, to ignore the built-in limitations that all systems impose"
I'll buy that...to a point. But Bode isn't so dumb as to pretend that he isn't aware that, as a truly gifted athelete and talented skier can both get away with others cannot and that he performs at a level of expertise where the ability to use what woud be misakes to ordinary skiers as tools. He's able to 'hang it out over the edge' further than most mere mortals.
post #96 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost
"What we have heah, is a failure to communicate".... some movie I saw on latenight tv years ago.
Sorry I can't resist....it's from Cool Hand Luke (Paul Newman).

Here's the rest...

"What we have heah.....is a FAILURE to communicate." "Some men ya just caint reach." "It's like what we had heah last week... with Luke." "WELL......that's the way he wants it......so..... HE GITS IT"

This pretty much fits the moment here doesn't it
post #97 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheapseats
Myself, I find that innovation in anything doesn't come from drone-like acceptance of mainstream beliefs - - it more often comes from those most willing to think for themselves regardless of what other think.

Highway Star is refreshing in that he's willing to go out on a limb despite heaps of adversity. .
They thought Einstein was retarded because he couldn't speak when very young, but he was a genius. It does not follow that everyone who is retarded is actually a genius, or that all the Highway stars left for roadkill are actually Bode Millers
post #98 of 113

Well its its been almost 4  years.  Anyone still skiing on short Metrons?

 

post #99 of 113

Yes, Slider and I ski, along with a pile of other skis, 171 M10's.

 

I'm going to Calgary for a few weeks.  That will be the only alpine ski I bring.

post #100 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier View Post
...BTW, you're not mad as I understand it... you're just not going to hate on people anymore based on what skis they typically use...
 

I noticed something along these lines. You know how when you meet a girl, your eyes involuntarily drop downward from her smile to check out the whole package. skiers eyes will drop down to see what someone is skiing on, in the same way, and then the final judgement is made.

post #101 of 113

Odd.....I careless what a skiers equipment is. I watch his/her movements, that defines more to me.

post #102 of 113

This thread is retarded.

 

I think Highway Star has a good theory.  Is it true?  I dunno.  I think it makes a lot of sense.  But why are you guys acting like wild dogs, trying to tear him down?  

 

If you like your Metrons or whatever, good for you.  But you don't have to be so angry about it.  It's just a pair of skis--it's not your lover.

post #103 of 113

post #104 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky View Post

Lucky, IIRC you saddle your own horse. 

 

post #105 of 113

Has Highway Star met Captain Chaos?

post #106 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trekchick View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky View Post

Lucky, IIRC you saddle your own horse. 

 


 

Darn Tootin.


Edited by Lucky - Tue, 03 Feb 09 18:07:28 GMT
post #107 of 113

What's the name of your Bay?

post #108 of 113

Dark Horse

post #109 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by davluri View Post
I noticed something along these lines. You know how when you meet a girl, your eyes involuntarily drop downward from her smile to check out the whole package. skiers eyes will drop down to see what someone is skiing on, in the same way, and then the final judgement is made.

 

Holy crap. Something I said in 2005 was just quoted! How timeless...

post #110 of 113

I thought Killington sucked anyway.

 

 

?????????

post #111 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jer View Post

I thought Killington sucked anyway.

 

 

?????????

 

...never been brave enough to try to ski there...

post #112 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by davluri View Post
 

I noticed something along these lines. You know how when you meet a girl, your eyes involuntarily drop downward from her smile to check out the whole package. skiers eyes will drop down to see what someone is skiing on, in the same way, and then the final judgement is made.

 

Hey, that's really not bad.    Scansion's off, but not bad.

post #113 of 113

FWIW, I spent Saturday morning cruising on a 19 M ski.  They held very well and was stable at relatively high speed (maybe 30-35 mph?). It was fun, but a little boring.

 

After lunch,  I changed to an SL ski.  I let some 12 m Head SuperShape WCs run flat out all afternoon down some wide open terrain Saturday afternoon.  Sure, they weren't perfect railed arcs.  But, it sure was a rush being at the very edge of stability for that ski.  I didn't do this around any other skiers.  But, I'd rather be doing 35 mph on a SL ski than doing 55 mph on a GS these days for an adreneline rush. 

 

I guess I don't have the stones go 60 on an open trail these days so I get my kicks pushing a shorter ski to the edge (pun intended).

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