New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Releasing inside ski first?

post #1 of 52
11/1/05 at 8:30am
Thread Starter 
I've done some posts on the gear side, but this is my first here. Great info; wish I had discovered it sooner!

My question: In lessons last season in Quebec (skiing Volkl 6*), instructor worked on a) my patience in letting skis truly flatten out during mid-turn (I tend to "hurry" my edges) and b) initiation by releasing my inside ski FIRST - transfer weight from inside foot's ball to base of little toe, let outside ski take care of itself. (Of course, tipping inside ski will do same for outside a nanosec later.)

He emphasized that this gets my center of gravity going the correct direction faster and smoother than if I initiate by consciously tipping outside ski first. Which will catch up anyway because it's moving faster. I see the same general idea on the technique pages of Realskiers. I'd call it a finesse, rather than power, move.

Yet in a search, I noticed most talk in dozens of posts is about initiating a turn by tipping the outside ski with my knees, which is my usual take-no-prisoners-carve.

So could someone guide me to a clear discussion of this? Am I misunderstanding the jargon or misvisualizing the sequence of edge transfers? Is this a French thing that will make my Volkl's blush?
Reply
post #2 of 52
11/1/05 at 8:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by beyond
In lessons last season in Quebec (skiing Volkl 6*), instructor worked on a) my patience in letting skis truly flatten out during mid-turn (I tend to "hurry" my edges) and b) initiation by releasing my inside ski FIRST - transfer weight from inside foot's ball to base of little toe, let outside ski take care of itself. (Of course, tipping inside ski will do same for outside a nanosec later.)

Just a couple points of clarification:

In a), "mid-turn" is the transition between turns?

In b) "releasing my inside ski FIRST" means releasing the outside ski of the previous turn as a continuation of the flattening of both skis during the transition between turns?
Reply
post #3 of 52
11/1/05 at 8:59am
One reason for a) is to ensure you don't horse your skis around with upper body rotation. Hurrying the edges usually means rotating the shoulders and moving through neutral with little ski to snow contact. The other reason for a) is to remain in balance and in control during the transition. It's the point at which you can pivot the skis and start to progressively edge them.

One reason for b) is to stop the sequential outside/inside edge change. The ultimate goal being simultaneous release to flat at neutral where you remain in balance.

Now add a pole plant with skis flat, and you can pivot the skis (rotate the femurs) to create an initial steering angle without horsing the skis. ( Steering angle is the angle between the path of the CM and which way the skis point. )

It's about giving you more options than your "take no prisoners carve". It's all about giving you the opportunity to steer.

At least that's how I see it.....
Reply
post #4 of 52
11/1/05 at 9:59am
Beyond,

Aside from the fact that we talk about turns ad nauseum here (I plead guilty), there are many ways to skin a dead cat. The nature of the beast is that one mans "Clear discussion" is another woman's "gobbledegook". Here's my 2 cents worth of explanation.

"Hurried turns" is one of the common problems that pros run into. This is where you do extra work to get the skis into and/or out of the fall line. It's not efficient AND it's not powerful. Other than that, it works pretty good.

Getting the center of mass to cross over the skis helps you get onto your downhill edges at the beginning of the turn. This helps you round out the portion of the turn above the fall line, letting the skis do more of the work in the first half of the turn. Look at the World Cup racers and you will generally see their outside leg is long and their inside leg is short. This is where your instructor was trying to get you. By focusing on moving the weight forward onto your little toe edge, you collapse the inside leg and get the CM into the inside of the turn. Here the CM can then drive the ski through the top half of the turn.

Once you've got a great top half started, you don't need to drive the skis out of the turn to control speed. In fact you need to do just the opposite. Once you pass the fall line, you need to start rolling the skis off the old edge to reduce turning forces. Because you've already started controlling speed in the top half of the turn, there's less work to be done in the bottom half. The idea here is that movements are progressive and continuous. When it comes time to start the next turn, your center of mass has already been moving from inside of the old turn. This makes it easier to just continue the movement so that the focus to go onto the new little toe edge.

One of the exercises that works well for hurried turns is "10 toes". Think about getting all 10 toes to point into the fall line before turning out of it (you have to have patience going in and out to make this work). Another "turn thought" is "taking a bigger bite of vertical" on each turn.

There are other ways to ski (e.g. see threads about inside leg extension). But hurried turns and this approach at calming them is one of the steps that many skiers go through on their path towards the higher levels of expert skiing. Other paths may focus on the outside leg, the hips, the ankles, (cough) the waist, etc. PSIA says that the END result should be simultaneous edge change. You can get there via many roads. Your mileage may vary.
Reply
post #5 of 52
11/1/05 at 10:21am
I haven't read all of this thread, but I'm going to jump in anyway. If you ask the question "should I point my knee, or should I release the pressure form the down hill ski, or should I tip my foot?" the answer is YES. You should do all those things learn what happens. Use what works and discard the rest.
High level skiing is about having a feel for what is going on between the snow and your skis. The best skiers are consistently able to edge and pressure their skiers just enough to make the turns they want, with over-rotating them, scraping speed or losing balance. Sometimes they extend their uphill ski, and sometimes the relax their downhill ski, but (at least for me) it all happens based on what the conditions require, with very little conscious deision makine about what technique to use. You don't need to be aware of how you are moving to do this, but you do need to be aware of your balance an of what the snow feels like under your feet. Occasionally you need to focus on how you move (mostly to add new skills), but for the most part your skiing will be better if you focus on how the snow feels under your skis.

BK
Reply
post #6 of 52
11/1/05 at 11:32am
Thread Starter 
Appreciate the thoughtful replies, all.

KB: I picture a model turn as half circle, 0 (transverse) to 180 (transverse again). Midturn means 90, skis pointed down fall line. Releasing inside ski occurs somewhere between 0 and say 30, when initiating turn. (Obviously most turns don't begin at 0 or end at 180 degrees.)

BigE: Don't horse my shoulders; quiet upper body and hips, I'm told. More about feeling impatient to get right back on edge, not letting ski stabilize enough. As said above, not energy efficient.


TheR: Idea that I don't need to drive through second half of turn, should be getting ready more for next, is helpful.

BodeK: Points well taken - especially that we should all have a whole back pocket full of turn elements to match terrain, conditions. I have a few, obviously not enough yet.

But another point of my question was wondering if some schools tend to emphasize teaching approaches, like concentrating on forefoot feel, that relate to nationality. For instance, many review sites - including this one - talk about how French ski brands prefer to be "finessed," driven lightly from the ball of the foot instead of powered through the boot, a la Atomic. I once took a lesson in Chamonix that, as far as my broken French would take me, emphasized lightness and balance. And my Mt. St. Anne instructor was a French national skiing Dynastars. So I was wondering if that figured into it at all, versus a good teacher just adapting his/her model to each student's needs. Thus my quip about a "French thing."
Reply
post #7 of 52
11/1/05 at 11:43am
The shoulder rotation was purely a guess on my part. It is true though that hurrying from one edge to another can give you this rotation. The CSIA dislikes rotation, preferring total upper/lower separation.

The CSIA also promotes the flat ski at neutral as a key to balance -- it's a really big deal. I thought that having taken the lesson at MSA, that you'd have a CSIA pro, and so I focussed on that path. Interesting that your instructor was a French National.
Reply
post #8 of 52
11/1/05 at 12:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by beyond
But another point of my question was wondering if some schools tend to emphasize teaching approaches, like concentrating on forefoot feel, that relate to nationality. For instance, many review sites - including this one - talk about how French ski brands prefer to be "finessed," driven lightly from the ball of the foot instead of powered through the boot, a la Atomic.
Every national instructor organization has their own teaching approach. Most of the differences are in how you get from point A to point B with respect to skill development. Most of the differences in the end "style" are pretty subtle.

I've never come across a teaching system that taught a style based on the brand of ski that you are on. Although one might be tempted to say there's value in this (think of all the ski reviews you've read that spoke of the "style" that a ski "liked" to be skied), there's also need for caution. A ski that is stiff relative to your weight and skiing speed will need to be muscled more, but that same ski could be too soft for another skier. Plus there is so much variation across the major brands these days, it's hard to say Brand X = Style Y.

In the US (PSIA), we're taught to consider equipment as one factor in the equation. Is it good thing to teach someone with "too stiff" skis how to muscle a ski instead of finesse it? What if they're on rentals? What if they own and aren't going to buy a new pair for many years? Everyone's in a unique situation. The teaching should adapt to the overall situation.
Reply
post #9 of 52
11/1/05 at 12:40pm
I think that there is a certain amount of missunderstanding involved in the wording here but I'll try to respond to the written words.

First, by your definition of mid-turn that is the point in the turn where you want to have some of the highest edge angles of the turn. The skis only flatten out at the transition from one turn to another.

You are waiting far too long to think about releasing the inside ski. This release is made while the ski is still the outside ski of the previous turn. That's where the term release comes from, you are letting go (releasing) of the edge that was holding you in the last turn allowing the path of the body to cross the path of the skis and start the new turn. As the body and skis cross paths the skis will go from being on one set of edges to flat on the snow to being on the other set of edges. The length of time that the skis are flat should be as close to zero as possible. Flat skis (neutral) are a instant that we pass through not someplace to linger. Along these lines stop thinking about turns having a traverse component. There is no traverse in linked turns and even thinking in terms of traverse will result in a deadspot between turns.

My guess is that you tend to hang on to the old turn (stay on the big toe edge) while you push and knee angulate the other ski onto its big toe edge and only then release the old turn. This results in a hitch in the gitalong between turns and a stem (small wedge) entry to the new turn,

One last comment, your efforts to stay on the fore part to your foot is probably keeping you from being centered and putting you a little back in your stance.

yd
Reply
post #10 of 52
11/1/05 at 12:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by beyond
TheR: Idea that I don't need to drive through second half of turn, should be getting ready more for next, is helpful.
Don't get me wrong here. The starting point is that a lot of skiers skid through the bottom half of the turn because they "have" to for speed control. Make sure you don't equate "not driving" through the second half of the turn with "not finishing" the turn. You still need to "let" the skis finish a turn going somewhere from almost straight across the fall line to slightly uphill in order to get a rounded bottom half of the turn.

It's a really really cool thing when you can transform your skiing from not having much of a top part of your turn and braking (skidding) in the bottom half of the turn into braking in the top half and accelerating in the bottom half. You don't have to "drive" to get that acceleration, gravity does it for free. A rounded turn keeps the acceleration under control so that you don't have to skid. Progressive and continuous movements of the ankles, knees, hips and shoulders is what helps you make a rounded turn. What cues you use to achieve those movements does not matter. Use whatever works best.
Reply
post #11 of 52
11/1/05 at 12:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by beyond
KB: I picture a model turn as half circle, 0 (transverse) to 180 (transverse again). Midturn means 90, skis pointed down fall line. Releasing inside ski occurs somewhere between 0 and say 30, when initiating turn. (Obviously most turns don't begin at 0 or end at 180 degrees.)
ummmm - actually the tracks from most of the guys whose skiing I like would disagree with that....

ie the new turn most definitely starts as the last one ends - so there is really no "between turns" time (they are not really in a traverse - just transitioning for an instant)

Also in longer turns they are quite capable of ending all turns across the hill or uphill if required - in fact they are regularly on my case about getting the skis that last couple of cm's underneath me rather than short changing myself
Reply
post #12 of 52
11/1/05 at 12:56pm
I think what I'm trying to tell you is that you are asking the wrong questions. If you ask the queston "should I extend my leg or point my knee?" the answer is either movement might produce a good turn or it might result in an abrupt edge change that prevents the smooth engagement of the new edge, which I presume is what you are looking for.
I use a garland excercise that works on smooth transition from edge to edge.
Practice traverses until you can easily make clean tracks on 2 skis. (A surpising number of self-described experts can't do this.) With shape skis, your tracks will typically arc back up the hill. Then traverse with less edge angle, but maintain clean tracks. Pick out a spot across the hill and traverse directly to it, making straight, clean tracks. (Clean means your skis are not skidding sideways.)
Next, from a traverse, flatten your skis slowly and progressively. Your edges should release and you skis will drift into the fall line. (If the tails wash out and your skis point back up the hill, you are in the back seat.) Roll your skis slowly back to re-engage the edges. Practice releasing and re-engaging the edges to get a feel for a smooth engagement. Gradually allow your skis to drift further and further to the fall line until you can easily complete a turn just by gradually engaging the opposite edges. ( I usually have to tell the cautious kids to let their skis point straight down the fall line for a count of 2.) This is fun because it produces a real big turn that goes a long way down the hill without much speed control.
I do this every year with the kids. I never look at their body movements. I judge them by how their skis move, not by what they do to make their skis move. Once they understand what their skis are supposed to do, effective movements develop pretty quickly.
The next step is to get them to decrease the radius of their turns by using quicker movements to higher edge angles, without rushing through the transition between edges. The rushing part is what disrupts the edge engagement and creates slow sloppy turns. That's true whether you initiate your turn by extension, retraction or anything else.

BK
Reply
post #13 of 52
11/1/05 at 12:57pm
OK - so ydnar & rusty were faster
Reply
post #14 of 52
11/1/05 at 1:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ydnar

You are waiting far too long to think about releasing the inside ski. This release is made while the ski is still the outside ski of the previous turn. That's where the term release comes from, you are letting go (releasing) of the edge that was holding you in the last turn allowing the path of the body to cross the path of the skis and start the new turn. As the body and skis cross paths the skis will go from being on one set of edges to flat on the snow to being on the other set of edges. The length of time that the skis are flat should be as close to zero as possible. Flat skis (neutral) are a instant that we pass through not someplace to linger. Along these lines stop thinking about turns having a traverse component. There is no traverse in linked turns and even thinking in terms of traverse will result in a deadspot between turns.
Beyond,

In keeping with your circle description, flat skis will happen at 0 and 180.
Reply
post #15 of 52
11/1/05 at 1:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by therusty
It's a really really cool thing when you can transform your skiing from not having much of a top part of your turn and braking (skidding) in the bottom half of the turn into braking in the top half and accelerating in the bottom half. You don't have to "drive" to get that acceleration, gravity does it for free. A rounded turn keeps the acceleration under control so that you don't have to skid. Progressive and continuous movements of the ankles, knees, hips and shoulders is what helps you make a rounded turn. What cues you use to achieve those movements does not matter. Use whatever works best.
That's what I was trying to say.

BK
Reply
post #16 of 52
11/1/05 at 5:17pm
Beyond,

Typically people refer to releasing the outside ski first. This is the ski that is downhill at the end of the turn and will bring you back to a neutral position with skis flat. Then they refer to tipping the downhill foot (which is now the inside foot of the new turn) on to its little toe edge to facilitate the actions you described.

I have a feeling most people are going to look at your title and think you are referring to releasing the inside ski first at the end of a turn (which would be the uphill ski), which is exactly opposite of what you are trying to accomplish.

I'm pretty sure you are on the same page with that, just using slightly backwards terminology. So, to recap, it goes release downhill foot, which becomes inside foot, which you tip to its little toe edge.

Also, thus far nobody has mentioned you also mention to pressure the inside foot. There is still some debate I think about whether and how much you want to be intentionally moving your weight and balance to the inside ski or not. I'll let someone more qualified than me speak to that point though, and the conditions that call for it.
Reply
post #17 of 52
11/1/05 at 6:03pm
Take your skis which look like this in cross section looking from the rear / / in a left turn and make them look like this \ \ for your right turn. That's all there is to it.

I've just been reading an article about removing a bad habbit of doing unnecessary things with the about-to-become-outside ski. It sounds like Ydnar is on the money, and your ski instructor was trying to get you to be patient and not do any unnecessary steps to start your turn, but to release the old outside ski first and allow gravity to move your cm over your skis (since your not pushing yourself up any more with that edge) and your skis will to aquire the proper position \\ to begin a right turn.

Disclaimer: I am not a ski instructor, nor have any professional experience on snow; I'm just a natural skier with a good grasp of physics, so take my free advise for what it's worth.
Reply
post #18 of 52
11/1/05 at 7:26pm

Transitions

beyond,
A thought about how you visualize your turns. Instead of imagining a series of C shaped turns, imagine a series of S shaped turns. Also think about the transition happening from fall line to fall line. On level terrain the highest edge angle happens at the apex of the turn but on any ski slope the highest edge angle is actually after that point. The additional angle is provided by the slope angle being added to edge angle you have created. So depending on the desired amount of lateral travel (in a race course it would be called offset), we need to hang onto that edge angle and allow the angle to increase due to the progressive addition of slope angle. Once we Change our direction of travel enough, then we can progressively reduce edge angle (while allowing the skis to continue to turn further across the hill). The ultimate outcome either way is to reach a neutral stance (perpendicular to the slope angle) in the middle of an edge change.
  • Neutral, tipped on edge, back to neutral is the C shaped mantra.
  • Tipped on a high edge, working towards neutral, neutral, working towards being tipped in the opposite direction, and tipped onto edge, is the S shaped mantra.
The down side of the C shaped image is that most people wait too long to start working towards neutral because they think of the transition as only the point at the end of the turn and the beginning of the next turn.

The advantage of the S shaped image is it implies linkage and a transition that is not a point but a zone. The best skiers use a fall line to fall line transition zone. When they delay that transition it is a tactical choice based on the amount of offset needed.
Reply
post #19 of 52
11/3/05 at 12:26am
Thread Starter 
OK, I still appreciate all the feedback, but this is my last response, partly because I'm getting a headache about people misunderstanding my terminology and partly because I'm sure I'm giving you all one too. My bad because I don't know the jargon and this is clearly a professional site. Letsee. Here goes:

1) Not knowing jargon does not mean I'm a closeted level 4. I have been skiing nearly a half century. My first lessons were at a new place in California called Mammoth; my parents knew Dave McCoy and we took lessons from some guy named Tony Millicent (sp?) who started their ski school. (He also was French, I think. Ironic.) I cannot ski more than 20-25 days a season because of my profession, so I depend on lessons to progress, albeit slowly, toward expert. I am generally sorted into the Level 8-9 classes.

I chose to talk about half circles partly because every ski instructor since creation at some point draws a little half circle in the snow to demonstrate a hypothetical turn. Then he/she draws another half circle at the end of the first, other direction. (Sort of like the little () you draw to represent bumps.) And as I said parenthetically, obviously few turns start or stop perfectly transverse across the slope unless you want them to. (I could add here that carves are seldom arcs of a circle either, but have decreasing radii.)

So yes, I do know about S's. You instructors always qualify the C's before or after you draw them by noting that what we're really after is S's. And yes, I have spent time creating clean lines across a slope, then letting my skis disengage/drift. I even do 360's on easy slopes and sunny days. Thank you all for the suggestions. They represent a lot of creativity and energy on your part. Not to mention confusion. Since all I wanted to know was about little toes and inside skis.

2) It wasn't so complicated, I thought, to visualize a half circle looking up a slope where 0 degrees is at the top, where you begin a turn, 180 is right where your instructor is standing at the finish, and 90 is at the maximum lateral bulge of your arc, out toward the woods. Call it an Platonic turn, if you like. Only exists in the mind. I was wrong. So here goes a more cinematic version:

Imagine you are edging in a straight line directly across this slope, idly wondering which snowboarder will cut you off. Simply transversing, bit more weight on what used to be called your downhill ski. No gates, no anticipation for the next turn, just waiting for divine guidance, or your instructor's whoop, on when to begin things. So you start to release your edges (remember you're still mostly transverse, tips pointed at that snow maker) to initiate your turn. But you are nowhere near flat yet, just getting those neurons to make your intentions about releasing into an actual movement.

That was the moment in the arc where I was interested in little toes and inside skis, because your soon-to-be-inside ski (downhill in the old parlance) is the one that has the little toe I'm talking about. It is the ski that some like my instructor say should be pressured a bit, by shifting your weight across the ball of your foot to outside the base of your little toe, with less consciousness about tipping the soon-to-be-outside (uphill) ski to start things. Realskiers says something like this also.

I deduce this is less about a sequence (obviously both should happen simultaneously) and more about how you visualize the initiation of a movement - do you think more about tipping the outside (uphill) ski, as most of my search results indicated, or about pressing your inside (downhill) ski toward release?

I also deduce that for a racer on a steep icy course, the problem is more about leg extension than it is for me. I also realize some of you assumed "ball" of foot meant pressuring the tongue from the toes, not a good habit. According to my instructor, it doesn't. In fact, he said he uses the location to get people away from feeling their boots and into feeling the snow under their feet. And obviously, the outcome is happening a LOT faster than it takes me to describe it.

In any case, a moment later, the carve is happening and we approach the fall line. That is by my apparently mistaken geometry when my tips are pointed straight down the fall line. Or as TheRusty suggested, all ten of my toes. I like that image too.

3) Now my instructor at Mt. St. Anne, teaching a mix of 7's to 9's, mentioned the necessity of letting skis run flat/neutral this instant, right down the fall line. No carving allowed. It lets modern shaped skis stabilize, he said in a thick accent ("become calm" was the exact phrase), and incidentally makes your carve rounder.

(I do not make a Z, and my carve marks stay pretty tight so no crypto-stemming and skidding. But my S's could be rounder. They look like they've been squashed down a bit. I hurry the "calm" part.)

So he actually made us count "one-thousand and one" on the fall line, skis running flat, before continuing the (long radius) turn to a stop pointed across the slope the other direction. He also noted that in short turns, the "pause" is just a blink, something instinctive. After practicing linking, with quicker flat segments, he then made us try it on an empty slope with our eyes closed, by the way. I've had others get me to try it on one ski. Which is kinda fun and great for learning about both edges. (I figure skate decently.)

But in any case, this 90 degree, fall line instant is what I understood to be the flat ski segment of the turn. And there I get lost vis-a-vis several of your comments.. I do not see how BOTH skis should be flat at any other aspect of a hypothetical 180 degree arc. In fact, for ANY arc radius, and however quickly you're moving edge to edge, the neutral/flat segment cannot BE initiation. It is the state AFTER you initiate some change in the edges and BEFORE both edges tip the other direction. That's not technique, it's physics.

In conclusion, one of you - Onyxji - actually understood my question about little toes and pressure enough to address it, said it was controversial. I'll try to follow that idea up on slope next lesson. And couple of others addressed the French/finesse conjecture. In any case, I've appreciated your effort, sorry I caused so much hassle, and I'll go back to the gear pages.

Over and out...
Reply
post #20 of 52
11/3/05 at 3:32am
beyond,

Sounds to me like the instructor was showing you a drill. The drill is meant to teach you patience in the turn by exagerating the amount of time you spend in the fall line. I assure you that flattening your skis in the fall line is a drill only.

Why do this drill? Because you are probably rushing your turns. You may also have a tendency to use your outside foot as ydnar described: "My guess is that you tend to hang on to the old turn (stay on the big toe edge) while you push and knee angulate the other ski onto its big toe edge and only then release the old turn."
Reply
post #21 of 52
11/3/05 at 6:15am
Beyond, sounds like an exercise Nick Herrin introduced us to last winter might be helpfull. The idea is to think of skiing in a square, touching three sides in every turn. Off course skiing in a square touching three side always will get you moving across the hill as much as you move down the hill. Sounds to me like you are currently skiing in a rectangle, further down the hill than across.

To keep both turns, (last turn and next turn), touching the upper side of the square, rolling the little toe of the old outside ski into the snow will help draw you across the skis onto new edges without changing or rushing a direction change in the skis. Softly realeasing the old turn. Keep the moves slow and continuos so your skis get to the other two sides of the box.

Do a couple of turns and hike up and see if you are skiing a square or more of a rectangle. The result should be a nice progressive round turn. Keep that mental image of the square in your mind and the idea of guiding the skis so they touch all three sides as you ski. Play wiht them slow at first, and as you get more effective, dial it up slowly. This is a great exercise to force continuos movements and round complete turns. It can be used all over the mountain too. Great in the bumps. Rectangle = not round, while square = round. later, RicB.
Reply
post #22 of 52
11/3/05 at 6:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by beyond

Imagine you are edging in a straight line directly across this slope, idly wondering which snowboarder will cut you off. Simply transversing, bit more weight on what used to be called your downhill ski... So you start to release your edges (remember you're still mostly transverse, tips pointed at that snow maker) to initiate your turn. But you are nowhere near flat yet, just getting those neurons to make your intentions about releasing into an actual movement.

That was the moment in the arc where I was interested in little toes and inside skis, because your soon-to-be-inside ski (downhill in the old parlance) is the one that has the little toe I'm talking about. It is the ski that some like my instructor say should be pressured a bit, by shifting your weight across the ball of your foot to outside the base of your little toe, with less consciousness about tipping the soon-to-be-outside (uphill) ski to start things....

I deduce this is less about a sequence (obviously both should happen simultaneously) and more about how you visualize the initiation of a movement - do you think more about tipping the outside (uphill) ski, as most of my search results indicated, or about pressing your inside (downhill) ski toward release?

I also deduce that for a racer on a steep icy course, the problem is more about leg extension than it is for me. I also realize some of you assumed "ball" of foot meant pressuring the tongue from the toes, not a good habit. According to my instructor, it doesn't. In fact, he said he uses the location to get people away from feeling their boots and into feeling the snow under their feet.
The two statements I marked in bold are the money quotes of this drill. By moving the pressure from the ball of your foot to the little toe, you are not necessarily adding preessure to the ski, but you are moving the pressure that is already there from one edge to the other. Just as important, he has told you to focus on the feeling of pressure on the soles of your feet, without thinking about how you are moving to acheive that change in pressure. This is an advanced excercise, appropriate for level 8 and 9 skiers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by beyond
Now my instructor at Mt. St. Anne, teaching a mix of 7's to 9's, mentioned the necessity of letting skis run flat/neutral this instant, right down the fall line. No carving allowed. It lets modern shaped skis stabilize, he said in a thick accent ("become calm" was the exact phrase), and incidentally makes your carve rounder.

(I do not make a Z, and my carve marks stay pretty tight so no crypto-stemming and skidding. But my S's could be rounder. They look like they've been squashed down a bit. I hurry the "calm" part.)
That's a common problem for advanced skiers. Rushing to a new edge engagement works fine on groomed snow (which is why it becomes a habit), but it's slow in a race course, and it won't allow you to set your edges in hard snow.
Quote:
Originally Posted by beyond
So he actually made us count "one-thousand and one" on the fall line, skis running flat, before continuing the (long radius) turn to a stop pointed across the slope the other direction. He also noted that in short turns, the "pause" is just a blink, something instinctive...

But in any case, this 90 degree, fall line instant is what I understood to be the flat ski segment of the turn. And there I get lost vis-a-vis several of your comments.. I do not see how BOTH skis should be flat at any other aspect of a hypothetical 180 degree arc.
This is where your description goes off the rails. As an excercise, a flat ski in the fall line makes it easy to engage the edges without rushing or twisting the skis. But, you won't get much speed control in the first part of the turn with that. As you learn to engage the edges more patiently, you also need to engage them earlier in the turn. The most advanced skill is to engage the edges progressively, early in the turn, with just enough angle and pressure to get the turn you want. More angle and pressure at the top of the turn will add more speed control, less angle will be faster.
Quote:
Originally Posted by beyond
In fact, for ANY arc radius, and however quickly you're moving edge to edge, the neutral/flat segment cannot BE initiation. It is the state AFTER you initiate some change in the edges and BEFORE both edges tip the other direction. That's not technique, it's physics.
This is just a matter of interpretation, or definitions. Most coaches would say that initiation begins with the release of the edge engagement of the old turn, and ends with engagement of the edges in the new turn. But it all happens with one continuous motion, and it really doesn't matter how you describe it. I use the term "transition," which occurs when the skis are flat, and it can be quick or it can be long and drawn out, but it's always a continuous and progressive movement from one set of edges to the other.

BK
Reply
post #23 of 52
11/3/05 at 8:36am
All the instructors in this thread and many others that I've run into talk about getting on your new edges early in the turn - well before you're heading straight down the fall line.

Ive got a problem with this emphasis. I don't think it is physically possible to do this on any terrain much above a blue at normal recreational speeds. The reason is this. Say that youre on a 30 degree black. When you are finishing the old turn and pointed straight across the hill, if you did nothing but stand straight up with absolutely no angulation, your edge angles would be 30 degrees. If you angulate in the normal direction with your butt up the hill by 10 or 20 degrees, your edge angles go up to 40 or 50 degrees.

Now, all of you are saying that skiers need to get on their new edges early in the turn. In this case this would be your downhill edges. OK ... let me start trying to release my edges ... I go back from my 50 degree edge angle to standing straight up and no angulation, so my edge angle is back to 30 degrees, but I still have to go further to do what you want. I start adding some reverse angulation. It takes 30 degrees of reverse angulation (in other words, my butt down the hill and upper torso UP the hill) to just get me to zero edge angle and my skis flat on the snow. Yet you guys are telling me that this isn't enough and Ill never have speed control in the upper part of the turn unless I get my downhill edges engaged and show my bases back up the hill.

Well, suppose I should be trying for a modest 20 degrees of edge angle with the downhill edges engaged. To do this on my 30 degree black slope, I would need ***50*** degrees of reverse angulation to do this. Well ... I hate to tell you but my body just cant bend this way and I suspect that most most other earthlings are built similarly.

One way to do what you suggest is to be going like the proverbial bat out of hell across the hill so that as you begin to turn downhill you can get lots of centrifugal force pointing back up the hill to keep you from falling over as you move your center of mass downhill of your skis on this 30 degree black slope. The other way to get on your downhill edges early in the turn is to do an edgeset a bit uphill from your body, but thats not the sort of smooth carving you all are talking about.

Well, there are a whole host of reasons why people either shouldn't or just don't want to be moving across the hill very fast so this means this whole story about carving the tops of your turns is a limited applicability technique - great for higher end skiers when they can open it up, but even limited for them -think chutes- and probably completely out of reach for most of the 10 days per year crowd unless they are on low angle groomers.

Anyway I question the reasonableness of always putting this as one of the top things to aspire to, especially here on Epic. Yeah it definitely should be in the bag of tricks of good skiers, but lots of times its completely unsuitable even if you are on new 10 m sidecut skis and its a bit easier to get that centrifugal force helping you. Personally, I would make any 6s and 7s that really want to get on steep stuff demonstrate that they could do old fashioned big rotary input turns for survival long before I would ever lead them to believe that carving at the top of every turn is what they should be shooting for to keep their speeds down and keep them safe.

OK - Ill be sure to stand real still while yall start taking aim .

By the way, just to make it clear, Ive go no problem at all with carving the top of turns -particularly ones that never get far out of the fall line- on greens and blues.

YOT
Reply
post #24 of 52
11/3/05 at 9:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by YoungOldTimer
All the instructors in this thread and many others that I've run into talk about getting on your new edges early in the turn - well before you're heading straight down the fall line.

Ive got a problem with this emphasis. I don't think it is physically possible to do this on any terrain much above a blue at normal recreational speeds. The reason is this. Say that youre on a 30 degree black. When you are finishing the old turn and pointed straight across the hill, if you did nothing but stand straight up with absolutely no angulation, your edge angles would be 30 degrees. If you angulate in the normal direction with your butt up the hill by 10 or 20 degrees, your edge angles go up to 40 or 50 degrees.

Now, all of you are saying that skiers need to get on their new edges early in the turn. In this case this would be your downhill edges. OK ... let me start trying to release my edges ... I go back from my 50 degree edge angle to standing straight up and no angulation, so my edge angle is back to 30 degrees, but I still have to go further to do what you want. I start adding some reverse angulation. It takes 30 degrees of reverse angulation (in other words, my butt down the hill and upper torso UP the hill) to just get me to zero edge angle and my skis flat on the snow. Yet you guys are telling me that this isn't enough and Ill never have speed control in the upper part of the turn unless I get my downhill edges engaged and show my bases back up the hill.

Well, suppose I should be trying for a modest 20 degrees of edge angle with the downhill edges engaged. To do this on my 30 degree black slope, I would need ***50*** degrees of reverse angulation to do this. Well ... I hate to tell you but my body just cant bend this way and I suspect that most most other earthlings are built similarly.

One way to do what you suggest is to be going like the proverbial bat out of hell across the hill so that as you begin to turn downhill you can get lots of centrifugal force pointing back up the hill to keep you from falling over as you move your center of mass downhill of your skis on this 30 degree black slope. The other way to get on your downhill edges early in the turn is to do an edgeset a bit uphill from your body, but thats not the sort of smooth carving you all are talking about.

Well, there are a whole host of reasons why people either shouldn't or just don't want to be moving across the hill very fast so this means this whole story about carving the tops of your turns is a limited applicability technique - great for higher end skiers when they can open it up, but even limited for them -think chutes- and probably completely out of reach for most of the 10 days per year crowd unless they are on low angle groomers.

Anyway I question the reasonableness of always putting this as one of the top things to aspire to, especially here on Epic. Yeah it definitely should be in the bag of tricks of good skiers, but lots of times its completely unsuitable even if you are on new 10 m sidecut skis and its a bit easier to get that centrifugal force helping you. Personally, I would make any 6s and 7s that really want to get on steep stuff demonstrate that they could do old fashioned big rotary input turns for survival long before I would ever lead them to believe that carving at the top of every turn is what they should be shooting for to keep their speeds down and keep them safe.

OK - Ill be sure to stand real still while yall start taking aim .

By the way, just to make it clear, Ive go no problem at all with carving the top of turns -particularly ones that never get far out of the fall line- on greens and blues.

YOT
You raised several good points, but I think you are overstating the case a little bit. It's true that it gets harder to get to the downhill edges (show the bases up the hill) as the hill gets steeper, and EVERYONE, even World Cuppers, will find a slope too steep to get an early edge engagement. A 30 degree slope is pretty steep-too steep to groom without anchoring the groomer by a winch from the top, or as steep as most of the steepest Eastern terrain. But even on a 30 degree slope, if your skis are 45 degrees off the fall line you only need to move about 20 degrees to flatten them, not 30. That's still beyond the ability of most skiers, but probably not impossible for aggressive, athletic skiers.
You're right that everyone still needs to have an old school rotary turn initiation to ski steeps safely, but I've found that most people working on carving the top of their turn are ready to add something more their skills.

BK
Reply
post #25 of 52
11/3/05 at 11:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bode Klammer
But even on a 30 degree slope, if your skis are 45 degrees off the fall line you only need to move about 20 degrees to flatten them, not 30.
And that only gets you to flat - you still have another 20 degrees to go before you start showing your bases in the direction they need to be shown.

You are right though - as your transitions get closer and closer to the fall line, edging early becomes so much easier. My only beef is that transitions close to the fall line mean lots of speed and this is the exact opposite of what most newbies to the steep are looking for.

YOT
Reply
post #26 of 52
11/3/05 at 12:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by beyond
OK, I still appreciate all the feedback, but this is my last response, partly because I'm getting a headache about people misunderstanding my terminology and partly because I'm sure I'm giving you all one too. My bad because I don't know the jargon and this is clearly a professional site.
Quote:
Originally Posted by beyond


Hi beyond, I see you've met the resident "barking" bears here, welcome to the barking bears forum, but don't mind them, they are just like old-time elementary school teachers, after talked so loftily in a little domain for so long, they thought they knew all the answers, and given directions/answers even they didn't fully understand the questions. And yes, they are now so "old-timer" that they know only their jargons; if you don't speak their language, you don't know nothing. So, don't feel too bad, you should see how they've responded to me.

Quote:
Letsee. Here goes:

1) Not knowing jargon does not mean I'm a closeted level 4. I have been skiing nearly a half century. My first lessons were at a new place in California called Mammoth; my parents knew Dave McCoy and we took lessons from some guy named Tony Millicent (sp?) who started their ski school. (He also was French, I think. Ironic.) I cannot ski more than 20-25 days a season because of my profession, so I depend on lessons to progress, albeit slowly, toward expert. I am generally sorted into the Level 8-9 classes.

I chose to talk about half circles partly because every ski instructor since creation at some point draws a little half circle in the snow to demonstrate a hypothetical turn. Then he/she draws another half circle at the end of the first, other direction. (Sort of like the little () you draw to represent bumps.) And as I said parenthetically, obviously few turns start or stop perfectly transverse across the slope unless you want them to. (I could add here that carves are seldom arcs of a circle either, but have decreasing radii.)

So yes, I do know about S's. You instructors always qualify the C's before or after you draw them by noting that what we're really after is S's. And yes, I have spent time creating clean lines across a slope, then letting my skis disengage/drift. I even do 360's on easy slopes and sunny days. Thank you all for the suggestions. They represent a lot of creativity and energy on your part. Not to mention confusion. Since all I wanted to know was about little toes and inside skis.

2) It wasn't so complicated, I thought, to visualize a half circle looking up a slope where 0 degrees is at the top, where you begin a turn, 180 is right where your instructor is standing at the finish, and 90 is at the maximum lateral bulge of your arc, out toward the woods. Call it an Platonic turn, if you like. Only exists in the mind. I was wrong. So here goes a more cinematic version:

Imagine you are edging in a straight line directly across this slope, idly wondering which snowboarder will cut you off. Simply transversing, bit more weight on what used to be called your downhill ski. No gates, no anticipation for the next turn, just waiting for divine guidance, or your instructor's whoop, on when to begin things. So you start to release your edges (remember you're still mostly transverse, tips pointed at that snow maker) to initiate your turn. But you are nowhere near flat yet, just getting those neurons to make your intentions about releasing into an actual movement.

That was the moment in the arc where I was interested in little toes and inside skis, because your soon-to-be-inside ski (downhill in the old parlance) is the one that has the little toe I'm talking about. It is the ski that some like my instructor say should be pressured a bit, by shifting your weight across the ball of your foot to outside the base of your little toe, with less consciousness about tipping the soon-to-be-outside (uphill) ski to start things. Realskiers says something like this also.


I'm with you on this one. You have to shift your weight to the inside ski before you can make that inside ski to become the new outside ski, so to maintain the pressure on the little toe side edge on the inside ski makes "earlier" weight transfer easier, which means you would hold on that inside ski uphill edge and shift the weight over, then release that edge to turn the other way. So it is releasing the inside ski first.

Quote:
I deduce this is less about a sequence (obviously both should happen simultaneously) and more about how you visualize the initiation of a movement - do you think more about tipping the outside (uphill) ski, as most of my search results indicated, or about pressing your inside (downhill) ski toward release?

I also deduce that for a racer on a steep icy course, the problem is more about leg extension than it is for me. I also realize some of you assumed "ball" of foot meant pressuring the tongue from the toes, not a good habit. According to my instructor, it doesn't. In fact, he said he uses the location to get people away from feeling their boots and into feeling the snow under their feet. And obviously, the outcome is happening a LOT faster than it takes me to describe it.

In any case, a moment later, the carve is happening and we approach the fall line. That is by my apparently mistaken geometry when my tips are pointed straight down the fall line. Or as TheRusty suggested, all ten of my toes. I like that image too.

3) Now my instructor at Mt. St. Anne, teaching a mix of 7's to 9's, mentioned the necessity of letting skis run flat/neutral this instant, right down the fall line. No carving allowed. It lets modern shaped skis stabilize, he said in a thick accent ("become calm" was the exact phrase), and incidentally makes your carve rounder.

(I do not make a Z, and my carve marks stay pretty tight so no crypto-stemming and skidding. But my S's could be rounder. They look like they've been squashed down a bit. I hurry the "calm" part.)

So he actually made us count "one-thousand and one" on the fall line, skis running flat, before continuing the (long radius) turn to a stop pointed across the slope the other direction. He also noted that in short turns, the "pause" is just a blink, something instinctive. After practicing linking, with quicker flat segments, he then made us try it on an empty slope with our eyes closed, by the way. I've had others get me to try it on one ski. Which is kinda fun and great for learning about both edges. (I figure skate decently.)


Follow the releasing of the inside ski uphill edge, (which now supports the full "balanced" weight,) there's moment of time the skis are on the flat board/base. And this period of the time, where the skier is "free fall" with the gravity, is most scary position for most of skiers, so they hurry it out by skidding, which breaks the flow of the skiing and interrupts the fluidity of the body movements. The new trend of RR carving goes on the other end of extreme by switching from edges to edges to eliminate the transition through the flat, however, transiting from edges to edges causes too much G-force change, which makes the maneuver too much hard work for non-racers. So, with that said, transition on flatboard, which serves two purposes, 1) to slow down [the carving] by going from edge to flatboard, 2) better balance on the fall line, is the best technique for smooth transition and smooth skiing as a whole.

Quote:
But in any case, this 90 degree, fall line instant is what I understood to be the flat ski segment of the turn. And there I get lost vis-a-vis several of your comments.. I do not see how BOTH skis should be flat at any other aspect of a hypothetical 180 degree arc. In fact, for ANY arc radius, and however quickly you're moving edge to edge, the neutral/flat segment cannot BE initiation. It is the state AFTER you initiate some change in the edges and BEFORE both edges tip the other direction. That's not technique, it's physics.

In conclusion, one of you - Onyxji - actually understood my question about little toes and pressure enough to address it, said it was controversial. I'll try to follow that idea up on slope next lesson. And couple of others addressed the French/finesse conjecture. In any case, I've appreciated your effort, sorry I caused so much hassle, and I'll go back to the gear pages.


So to reaffirm your suspicious, at the higher level skiing, the better technique is "early weight transfer," which is to maintain the [some] pressure on the LTE of the inside ski throughout the turn, when ready (i.e. the inside ski has the full control of the "balanced" body), release that edge and let the gravity to pull you down and use that momentum to initiate your next turn, then make a smooth transition from edge to flatboard to the other edge; as you would have the ski and snow contact at the all time, you'd feel secure, and with feeling/touch of the snow, you'd make a smooth transition and rounder curve.

Quote:
Over and out...


You shouldn't be discouraged by them "barking" bears, given by what you described how you ski, which is quite classic high level skiing, I see you may have more experience, skills, and know better skiing than them, why give?

Anyway, have fun,
IS
Reply
post #27 of 52
11/3/05 at 2:45pm
Nice post beyond. Your adaptation to our world of words shouldn’t have been necessary, but was nicely done anyway. Much easier for us on the hill when you can demo the actual movements you’re questioning.

This textual world requires a lot more framing of context, sequence and intent - something your post above does really well. Sometimes when thirsty, we've got no choice but to drink from the Fire Hose.

.ma
Reply
post #28 of 52
11/3/05 at 3:28pm
taichiskiing - On other EpicSki boards there is an ongoing debate over Censorship of Free Speech vs. Punishment of Bad Behavior. Consider catching up on it. You are no doubt on their minds.

Your continuing disparagement of well-qualified, knowledgable, helpful, and damn fine people is not appreciated by me, nor I suspect by most others here.

You are a clever fellow, that much is evident. Your post above has technical points of merit, though some are debatable. Even the observation that opinions may have been offered up a bit hastily has merit.

But your continuing derisive remarks, sneering attitude and disdain for all others has no merit whatsoever.

Please Edit your post above to remove the disparaging material and leave such commentary out of future EpicSki participation. If you remove it, I will delete this post as well.

Others: Your input above is outstanding. Please don't be lured into this swamp with me.

.ma
Reply
post #29 of 52
11/3/05 at 4:09pm
Sorry about the headache.

Until the snow get's here this is my skiing fix. My head's fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by beyond
2)
Imagine you are edging in a straight line directly across this slope, idly wondering which snowboarder will cut you off. Simply transversing, bit more weight on what used to be called your downhill ski. No gates, no anticipation for the next turn, just waiting for divine guidance, or your instructor's whoop, on when to begin things. So you start to release your edges (remember you're still mostly transverse, tips pointed at that snow maker) to initiate your turn. But you are nowhere near flat yet, just getting those neurons to make your intentions about releasing into an actual movement.

That was the moment in the arc where I was interested in little toes and inside skis, because your soon-to-be-inside ski (downhill in the old parlance) is the one that has the little toe I'm talking about. It is the ski that some like my instructor say should be pressured a bit, by shifting your weight across the ball of your foot to outside the base of your little toe, with less consciousness about tipping the soon-to-be-outside (uphill) ski to start things. Realskiers says something like this also.

I deduce this is less about a sequence (obviously both should happen simultaneously) and more about how you visualize the initiation of a movement - do you think more about tipping the outside (uphill) ski, as most of my search results indicated, or about pressing your inside (downhill) ski toward release?
This is where thinking about pressureing the little toe edge of your about-to-be-inside ski and ignoring the other foot helps. By rolling onto the LTE of that new inside ski, you are removing the old big toe edge of that same ski from the picture and without the big-toe edge being there for support you will have a much harder time doing things you shouldn't with the (BTE of the) soon to be outside ski.

Quote:
Originally Posted by beyond
In any case, a moment later, the carve is happening and we approach the fall line. That is by my apparently mistaken geometry when my tips are pointed straight down the fall line. Or as TheRusty suggested, all ten of my toes. I like that image too.

3) Now my instructor at Mt. St. Anne, teaching a mix of 7's to 9's, mentioned the necessity of letting skis run flat/neutral this instant, right down the fall line. No carving allowed. It lets modern shaped skis stabilize, he said in a thick accent ("become calm" was the exact phrase), and incidentally makes your carve rounder.

(I do not make a Z, and my carve marks stay pretty tight so no crypto-stemming and skidding. But my S's could be rounder. They look like they've been squashed down a bit. I hurry the "calm" part.)

So he actually made us count "one-thousand and one" on the fall line, skis running flat, before continuing the (long radius) turn to a stop pointed across the slope the other direction. He also noted that in short turns, the "pause" is just a blink, something instinctive. After practicing linking, with quicker flat segments, he then made us try it on an empty slope with our eyes closed, by the way. I've had others get me to try it on one ski. Which is kinda fun and great for learning about both edges. (I figure skate decently.)

But in any case, this 90 degree, fall line instant is what I understood to be the flat ski segment of the turn. And there I get lost vis-a-vis several of your comments.. I do not see how BOTH skis should be flat at any other aspect of a hypothetical 180 degree arc. In fact, for ANY arc radius, and however quickly you're moving edge to edge, the neutral/flat segment cannot BE initiation. It is the state AFTER you initiate some change in the edges and BEFORE both edges tip the other direction. That's not technique, it's physics.
Ok, this is a little confusing for me too. If your skis are pointing straight down the hill and they are flat, you are travelling straight down the hill. You are no longer in a turn; you are not carving any arc. I can see making you do this as an exercize to stretch out that part of the turn, but the only time skis can be flat in a continuous carved turn is when the radius reaches infinity, typically between two linked turns (right and left). Maybe he's turning your turn into a turn into the fall line and a turn out of it for as exercize with a transition from left turn to left turn and then the two right turns, and so on.

I agree that carving the top of your turns is more of a high speed thrill on steeps than speed control. I never found it that difficult to do, but then again, as near as I can remember (steeps around here are only long enough for 1/2 a turn), I kept my skis pointed pretty close to the fall line, more like
"(" and ")" turns than S or C turns.
Reply
post #30 of 52
11/3/05 at 5:04pm
Re Young Old Timer's post #23:
You would be surprised how early the ski edge can be engaged in a turn on the steeps, even without much speed and room available. Usually not the instant a turn is started, but well before the skis are pointing downhill. It's all about the right movements. Go out and push the limits of it, I think you will have a different view of what is possible.
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching