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Edge bevels problem

post #1 of 21
Thread Starter 
This is my first post, so apologies in advance if I'm not doing it right.

I bought a new pair of Atomic 9.22s in March, and was offered a free first service. This has now been done, but after reading the thread on edge angles being changed whilst being serviced by some stores, I checked with the store and found that they had taken all the bevel off both bottom and side and set them at 90 degrees. Like the store in the thread they were adamant that their angles were perfectly okay. I am in future going to do my own waxing and tuning (have an old pair of skis to practise on and have got hold of tools etc), but my problem is how do I know when I have got the angles back to 3 and 1? I want to avoid taking off either too little or too much of the edge.
Can anyone help?
Finally, I have been visiting this site for over a year now and have learned lots - many thanks to all you regulars.
post #2 of 21
There are file guides that allow you to set desired angles for both base and side faces of the edges. Once you think you have taken enough material off, use a big fat marker pen and draw on the edge faces. Use the file in the guide and make a pass along both edge faces at their respective angle settings, and all the ink will be gone if the angle is reached, and will still be there if you haven't.
post #3 of 21
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the tip - I already have an adjustable edging tool so the marker pen solution is just what I needed.

By the way, I skiied for four days on the 9.22s before Christmas and thought that they were terrific, even better than the red 9.22s I was skiing on before.
post #4 of 21
This might be something you want to consider. Ski tuning is not something you just pick up and start doing, especially on a new pair of skis. Practicing on old beaters is a good way to learn, but I think it's important to have someone that knows exactly what their doing to help you along, and to verify that you are doing things correctly. A good resource is one of the swix tuning manuals, but even with that, I think that someone needs to be taught how to tune their skis.

I've been tuning skis for quite a few years, and there are things that a good tuner has figured out as he/she became more experienced, and it's those things that a book can't tell you, and a beginning tuner can really benefit from.

Hope your tuning goes well. Don't be afraid to ask questions if you find yourself questioning wether you are doing things right! [img]smile.gif[/img]

Good luck!

Evan
post #5 of 21
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the advice. I don't know anyone in this area (Berkshire, England) that services their own skis, so I persuaded the service guy at a store to let me watch him service a pair, which was useful. However I am not sure that his idea of hot waxing (iron on wax in one pass, leave for two minutes max and then scrape) conforms exactly to what I have been reading on this site!

Anyway, yesterday I did my best to adjust the edges using Betaracers marker pen tip and it seemed to go well. I also waxed the skis, ironing on the wax tip to tail, making three passes, leaving to cool for 30 minutes, scraping and repeating three times, finishing with a nylon cleaning pad and cloth and cleaning edges with corner of Toki scraper. Is this right or did I miss something?

Doubtless I will find out next weekend when I start a week,s skiing in France, always assuming that there is some snow of course.
post #6 of 21
Why are there different angles for tuning? I've always taken whatever the shop does for granted. Do different brand skis require different edge bevels? Or is it the type of skiing you do?
post #7 of 21
That's great.. Good idea, going to the local service shop andd getting them to let you watch. But just remember that a service tech does a "quick" job, because time is money, and secondly they are not his/her skis, so be weary of their level of care.

As far as waxing goes, one application of hot wax is sufficient. There is no need to repeat the process three times unless you are "hot scraping" a process used to clean and deburr bases. The idea is to make enough passes with your iron to melt all of the wax that you dripped onto the base, and so that as your iron passes over an area, the wax in that area stays liquified for about a second. Just be careful not to overheat your skis. Once you have applied wax evenly, allow to cool for ten to twenty minutes then scrape. If you are using a harder wax (cold temperature) then allow them to sit for less time before scraping, it will make it easier. If you scrape then re-apply wax two more times you are just wasting wax..

Good luck!

Evan
post #8 of 21
Thread Starter 
I'm certainly no expert, but yes, different brands of skis have different recommended edge bevels (my atomics are 1 degree base and 3 degrees side whereas some brands are 1 and 1). In addition, some skiers customize edge angles to suit personal preferences. Wrong angles can affect the performance of the skis.
post #9 of 21
Thread Starter 
Thanks Evan, I'll just think of it as extra waxing practice!
post #10 of 21
Hi Marta--different manufacturers have different recommendations for their skis, but it really does come down to personal preference, and the optimal bevel angles depend on the the conditions you ski.

"Bevel" refers to either the side edges, or the base edges of the skis. You bevel the bases to make the skis less "grabby" and to make it easier to release the edges from one turn and smoothly roll and re-engage them for the next turn. If the bases are completely flat, the new edge engages virtually the same instant that the old one releases, making it difficult transition smoothly from one turn to the next. So the edges are beveled, usually between 1/2 and 3 degrees from flat.

Side edge bevel affects how "sharp" the skis are. To hold at all, the ski edge has to cut a small "step" into the snow surface. A 90 degree (square) edge will not cut as well as one that has an acute angle, like the edge of a knife. So side edges are usually beveled from 1 to 4 degrees, depending on how hard the snow is. If the skis have a 1 degree base edge bevel, and a 1 degree side edge bevel, they are still "square."

So if you want your skis to roll easily from one edge to the other, yet still grip tenaciously when on edge, you may want a 1 degree base, and a 2-or-more degree side edge bevel.

Unless you have the experience to determine the difference, and to have a preference, it is probably best to go with the manufacturer's recommendations. Keep in mind that skis that are too sharp can be scary and hard to manage. And also, the more acute the edge angle, the more edge has has to be ground away to create the bevel, and the more vulnerable the edge will be to damage. Unless you get free skis on a regular basis, I'd stay away from any extreme bevels!

Best regards,
Bob Barnes
post #11 of 21
And at more extreme side bevels the more precise one has to be in his edging. Atomics are 1 & 1 from the factory. If you visit Lacyslatherworks.com and hit Bob's Ski Page you will find a list I posted there of factory bevel settings for a number of ski vendors. This way you will know what your ski is or is supposed to be from the start. Then you can go from there as to your preferences.
post #12 of 21
Do any of you use a gummy stone? If so do you only use it for polishing or to deburr the edge. How many passes on the edge and do you use much pressure?
post #13 of 21
The only time I use a gummy stone is if the edges are too sharp and I want to take a bit of bite off of them. For burrs and stone nicks, use a whet stone to get any high points off, and then a file and/or diamond stone to smooth the edge.

Atomic's edge angles are 3 side, 1 base, not 1 and 1 as jdog typed.
post #14 of 21
Powderhound,

You are incorrect in saying that waxing more than once, except for a hot wax, is just wasting wax. If there is one thing you can never do too much of it's wax your skis. Especialy w/ a new pair of skis. The more wax you can soak into the base the better. Like you said though, you don't want to get the ski over heated. A few passes to get the wax heated and absorbing into the base then let cool for a while. When I say a while I mean until the ski is completly cool.
Then scrape, polish, brush, or what ever's next in your process.

CERAF
post #15 of 21
Simon T, Cera F is correct about multiple waxing. At least one to clean (usually two for me, using a wax such as Dominator Zoom Renew) and condition. Then at least two for getting to your final finish. Feel the top of the ski at tip and tail, warm is ok. If the wax is smoking, then your iron is too hot. Hard (cold temperature) wax might need a few more degrees on the iron. Do not let the iron sit on one spot, if the wax you have dripped on does not fully melt and spread on one pass, it will on another or two. Usually i will hit the edges with a scraper corner while the wax if still warm. If you are using a cold (hard) wax for expected conditions, there is nothing wrong with a single light scrape while the wax is warm to make the cooled off later scrape easier. Find a book to figure out brushing, I think someone recommended Swix' Alpine Manual. If one had to have brushes, I'd go with a longer (softer) bronze and a horsehair. Again a warm topskin is ok, uncomfortable to the touch is getting risky. Don't panic when the ski decambers from the heat of waxing.
post #16 of 21
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by John J:
Simon T, Cera F is correct about multiple waxing. At least one to clean (usually two for me, using a wax such as Dominator Zoom Renew) and condition.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with both Cera F, and John J to a certain extent, however I thought we were talking about a good tuning job for the everyday advanced recreational skier, not race prepping.

Like I said in my above post, and like John J repeted, multiple waxing is for cleaning of the base. Cera F is correct that multiple waxing can be used to saturate the bases of new skis. But that's not something you do every time you tune.

Proper wax absorption can be achieved by careful waxing, do it right and do it once. The most important thing is to not overheat the ski, but still warm it enough to allow the base to absorb as much wax as it can. There is no need to apply more wax, just do more ironing, while being careful of the temperature.
post #17 of 21
How important is brushing/texturing? I used to race and have the shop tune my skis since I am not very skilled at it. Now I just freeski, I have a file guide but don't really trust it or my skill so I usually trust my edges to the shop and just wax/deburr. I usually just scrape the wax with a metal or plastic scraper and then use these 3M pads (forget what they are called) to give the base a uniform looking texture. I'm not that concerned about speed since I do not compete, seems to be working well enough. Thanks for any tips, lots of knowledgable people here.
post #18 of 21
grambo - To be honest, when I free ski, I don't usually brush or even scrape for that matter. I always take care doing a good tuning job, but I usually don't scrape my wax off, I just ski it off. The first run is usually a little slower, but it speeds up quickly, and the wax lasts a lot longer.

If you feel like you want to scrape and texture, my first advice would be to not use a metal scraper to remove your wax, only a plastic one. A metal scrape will remove more than the wax, it will also remove base material. A Fibertex pad (the 3M thing) will do a generally satisfactory job of "structuring" the wax, but best results would be obtained from a ski waxing brush. Dependent on the temperature and snow conditions, brushes can be Nylon (general temps, and snow conditions), Brass (cold, fine sharp snow crystals), and many other materials. A brush that is half brass, half nylon is a good brush to have for everyday freeskiing. There are a lot of different brushes out their for different conditions, but it's simply something that you don't need to worry about if you're just freeskiing.

Evan
post #19 of 21
After your first initial waxing, each subsequent waxing doesn't need a whole heck of a lot. it's not how much wax you use but how often you wax. The more passes you do with your iron the mre the wax gets pulled into the base where it belongs, not on top of the base. After waxing, Scotch Brite it well, then brush, then Scotch brite again, then sfot clean cloth to polish like an old pair of shoes. End result is a set of sweet looking bases!
post #20 of 21
Thanks for the tips guys, I never thought it was possible to not scrape at all, seems like there would be too much wax to ski off, but I may give it a shot. I don't think I'll bother spending the cash on structuring brushes.

On another note, how accurate are edge sharpening devices (file guides) these days? I have an older Toko one, with little plastic inserts that are supposed to change the bevel from 0 to 3 degrees (they sit beside the file). I'd do edge work if I could be sure they were cutting properly, whenever I try I am not satisified with the results.
post #21 of 21
Thread Starter 
Just to say many thanks for your help. I had a great week in Avoriaz and the home tuning went really well including a small base repair. It was noticeable that the skis ran faster during the week compared to the other guys in the group. The only problem was on the first run of the week where the skis basically turned at random and was interesting to say the least! I later realised that I had forgotten to scrape the wax off the edges after waxing.

Many thanks once again for helping me to get started.
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