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Up until a few months ago.

post #1 of 16
Thread Starter 
This forum was still genuine and without race or even the mention of racism. Then a few new people joined and have dominated the controversial posts and started controversy. People who have been flamed and disapeer. There is a certain criminal element and abusers of this web who have basically spoiled a great thing. As a long time member I can do two things. Complain to the owners in private mesages and continue to read this crap or leave adter many yearsof having fun with my long time friends.

I'm going to do the later. I'm going to withdraw from this website and forum.It's just not what it used to be. I'm going to join Gonzo in the ranks of the missing.Maybe I'll lurk about and decide to join in again sometime. Until then you can all stew in the pot together til the pot boils over and the scum is burned off. Seeya!
post #2 of 16
Wow! Over reaction there Lars, but I understand your point. There are a lot of big mouths around here that want you to hear them above all else. I look at them as the same kind of people at a party or at work that everybody keeps their distance from. But here, you'll just have to listen because they just keep coming at you, and they're always so damn right.

I mostly ignore the lounge now. There's too much anger and bitterness in there. I peek in now and then, but can't take anybody nearly as seriously as they seem to take themselves. I don't know where people find the time to argue endlessly like that and why they get so worked up.

No reason to leave the real skiing forums though. They're mostly still a good enjoyable read. Don't be so quick to throw in the towel. I might not care for some of the big mouths in the whiner's lounge but when it comes to talking skiing, I can usually put my personal opinions aside. Still a whole lot of great people outside of the ugly confines of the pit of anger.

I request that you reconsider, Lars.
post #3 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by carvemeister
No reason to leave the real skiing forums though. They're mostly still a good enjoyable read. (

What do you think is going to happen outside the lounge when the loudmouths have no one to pick on? They're already spilling their wrath in the non-lounge areas occasionally.
post #4 of 16
Wow guys - CHILL OUT its ONLY skiing NOT Life here !!

There will ALWAYS be some overly opinionated doofii ( Plural of doofus?? ) who are generating MORE HEAT THAN LIGHT.

IGNORE them !

But for the benefit of those of us who have LEARNED MUCH from the collective experience of this Forum HOLD the FORT DON"T let a FEW jerks ruin it !!
post #5 of 16
I have to say that this whole situation has me scratching my head because there are a variety of responses to it that are all very personal and have validity.

The people that can ignore the troublemakers aren't wrong. The people that refuse to let them get away with making trouble aren't wrong. The people that want the troublemakers gone aren't wrong.

I guess at the end of the day I try to remember that this is a skiing forum and not a politics, social engineering, etc. forum and that there are lots and lots of other places where I can discuss non-skiing topics. I'm comfortable with letting the people that moderate this site decide that it's in the best interest of Epic to decide that the subjects that tend to generate more heat than light do more harm than good to the health of the community and will be deemed "off topic" for Epic, if you will.

I know some people hate that solution as much as others hate having to read posts that offend them. No one is going to "win" this war. I think on balance, this is a reasonable approach, if not the only possible one.

We now have a second moderator so that no one person has to keep up with all the traffic and reports of innapropriate posts. Rather than bail out now, please stick around and see how this works.

I'm sure some people will leave because they're not comfortable with a perceived heavy hand of authority. Some of those people are people that probably would be happier posting elswhere anyway. Some will be people for whom this runs counter to their principles of free expression. It's regrettable. I think the path things have been on is unsustainable and that on balance, a little oversight is a better way to go.

There are skiing forums with much less concern for this issue. Some people are using this forum as well as those forums. I believe the bulk of Epic users participate here to the exclusion of participation at those other forums and that says something. There are free-for-alls out there for people that want one. Epic doesn't need to follow that model. Epic stands out in part, because it doesn't.

I hope people will give the recent adjustment to forum moderation a chance.
post #6 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by dchan
AC and I have agreed that we need to bring another Moderator on board. SSH has shown great balance in moderation and assistance so we asked him to join the team as a moderator. He has graciously accepted and is now going to be helping out in this area.

Does this mean we can't make fun of Atomic anymore?
post #7 of 16
I view forums like buffets. Take what you want and leave the rest.
post #8 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Pugliese
I view forums like buffets. Take what you want and leave the rest.
I agree with this approach, and have openly supported it often. That said, I can see where Lars is coming from as I see myself leaving more and more on the "buffet" here.

What brought me here was the unmatched information on the sport, but what kept me here was the community aspect of the forums. Recently that aspect has taken a great hit, due to the actions of a few IMO. I made a statement in another thread that these folks are sucking the fun out of this forum from my perspective, and I stand by that statement. I respectfully understand that those folks don't agree and have a different perspective.

To me the bottom line is this:

I deal with the problems of everyday life, day in and day out. If I have to deal with them in a skiing forum that I depend on for enjoyment, what's the point? Some will counter by pointing to the Lounge, but in my opinion that's entirely different because it's each persons choice to enter that discussion area or not with the knowledge that it's generally not sport related.

Just my $.02...not that it matters.

BTW...this signals my last post as it relates to this subject. I'm going to stick around to see if things right themselves. If it doesn't, I'm likely gone as well.
post #9 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Pugliese
I view forums like buffets. Take what you want and leave the rest.
I'll second that emotion. In addition, this is a PRIVATELY OWNED WEB SITE. Our presence here is like being in someone's home as a guest. It is a SKI web site, and the Lounge was created as a courtesy for those who want to dicuss subjects other than skiing with the acquaintences they've made here.

A guest behaving as though the guest is the owner of a home is rude, discourteous and insulting. Anyone who doesn't like the house the way the owers want it to be has two courteous choices. One is to stay, put up with it, and be cordial. The other is to leave - our feet aren't glued to the floor.

Speaking only for myself, I have so much fun with the skiing part of the site (its reason for being), have made such good friends whom I otherwise never would have met, and have met professionals from the top eschelon of the sport - I'm staying. I'll just use the "buffet technique".

Best regards to all, think snow, gotta run.

oboe
post #10 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kneale Brownson
What do you think is going to happen outside the lounge when the loudmouths have no one to pick on? They're already spilling their wrath in the non-lounge areas occasionally.
Something I've noticed too. Inexplicable enmity between posters on ski-orientated threads, referring to things not evident in the discussion. I realise now it's from stuff happening in the Lounge, but for a while it really flummoxed me.

I've seen other forums go this way.
post #11 of 16
Hey Lars, once you're done with your tantrum, we'll still be here for you.

Just another drama queen, folks, nothing to see, move along.
post #12 of 16
Quote:

Originally posted by Coach13
What brought me here was the unmatched information on the sport, but what kept me here was the community aspect of the forums. Recently that aspect has taken a great hit, due to the actions of a few IMO. I made a statement in another thread that these folks are sucking the fun out of this forum from my perspective, and I stand by that statement. I respectfully understand that those folks don't agree and have a different perspective.

To me the bottom line is this:

I deal with the problems of everyday life, day in and day out. If I have to deal with them in a skiing forum that I depend on for enjoyment, what's the point? Some will counter by pointing to the Lounge, but in my opinion that's entirely different because it's each persons choice to enter that discussion area or not with the knowledge that it's generally not sport related.
Quote:

Originally posted by Oboe
I'll second that emotion. In addition, this is a PRIVATELY OWNED WEB SITE. Our presence here is like being in someone's home as a guest. It is a SKI web site, and the Lounge was created as a courtesy for those who want to dicuss subjects other than skiing with the acquaintences they've made here.

A guest behaving as though the guest is the owner of a home is rude, discourteous and insulting. Anyone who doesn't like the house the way the owers want it to be has two courteous choices. One is to stay, put up with it, and be cordial. The other is to leave - our feet aren't glued to the floor.
Excellently put by both of you. I fully share these views and, like several others here have been on the point of walking away from this forum out of complete disgust. I find the hypocrisy and self righteousness nauseating and certainly not something I need to come here for. As Phil says you can pick and choose what you select but the way recently it has spilled across into almost every area and the accompanying underlying hatred and bitterness makes this very difficult.

I look forward to the revised moderation. SSH, I am sure there are a lot of others like me out here relying on you, you certainly have my full support. Good luck!
post #13 of 16
Quote:
posted by TomB:Glad this has been entertaining for you BobMc. Let me spell out what was not so entertaining:

1) How the administrators failed to take decisive action when faced with clear racism
2) How people have managed to twist words and meanings (see racist, overseer, hate, lynch-mob) to suit their pacifist attitudes and political correct inclinations.
3) How people failed to recognize clear racism when it hit them in the face
4) How twisted freedom of speech and expression has become when it is used to protect one of the worst forms of persecution.

Still think it is funny?

For this reason, I am joining Lars in a hiatus. I'd like to answer this post, as I'm sure it's representative of the attitude I dislike so much.

1) They did not FAIL to take action. It took longer than the people All Fired Up were willing to give. Everyone is banned, along with some hotheaded people who started the blaze.

2)Being labelled a Pacifist and 'twisting words to suit a politically correct inclination' is a personal insult to me. Anyone who knows me certainly can't make that statement. Since I was very vocal in that thread, I can assume it was pointed at me some of the time.

The only thing I was sure of is that Xdog should be banned. I did NOT think the WAY it was being handled was appropriate by the people shouting for his banning. That put me on the side of racists. Truly a twisting, also.

3)I don't recall ANYONE not clearly seeing racism in his posts or advocating for it. Just because we don't deal with the problem by your methods (was there a civil one?) doesn't mean we are blind to it.

4)No one was PROTECTING persecution.

The only way this group wanted to deal with Xdog is to ban him. I happen to believe that that is only one way. I think there are other ways. I also happen to believe that you can't change a racists attitude by not communicating with them. A horrible thought to some, and I was firehosed for it (thank you ryan, for the great metaphor! ).

My biggest complaint was that we all broke the rules. We poisoned the forums with this huge argument that should have been in the Lounge. In the past, we had problems with political, religious, and other heated discussions in the other forums, and they have no place there. This was no exception, only some thought it was right to expose it to the skiing side and everyone who reads Epic.

Because I felt it wrong to publicly roast a known racist this way (or pedophile, rapist, murderer, or anyone in a category some will not tolerate), I have been ridiculed, despised, and roasted myself. I've never had so many hateful pm's......all from the people who claim to hate racists! (yes, I can say 'hate racists' because that's what it looks like to me). It seems there is a new category: racists, racists haters, and now, racist sympathizers.......if you're not a racists hater. WTF.

I don't need this either.

I think banning Xdog was the right decision. It was right from the start.
I think banning the people who incited these threads was right also.
I think that the moderators took their time with a weighty decision and that they did the right thing in the end. What's clear to you may not be clear to everyone, obviously.
I think I should be banned for trying to stop it and take the arguing out of the general population. I just added fuel to the fire. I should have let you guys continue to wave torches.

Since no one has banned me, I'm doing it temporarily so that you can all feel good about yourselves again, as I'm sure you wanted my head, too.

Enjoy your website.
post #14 of 16
IMHO- There are way too many self-appointed site police. There is way too much fingerpointing going on.

I have seen some people who have tried to defuse a situation being falsely accused of being sympathizers to that situation. Their only intent was to calm the situation and let the "discipline" fall into the correct hands (moderators).

I have seen a few members get on to their high horses for a cause and not be willing to accept any results other than those they desire.

There are a few members who are catalysts to controversy. They are willing to break the rules themselves, but will not tolerate others who break the rules.

A lot of people who were anti-racism got wrongly accused of being racists. I believe that these people, as I was, were only trying to get this situation handled in a different manner than it was being handled. I was appauled to see it being dragged out there in a public forum. There were other, equally effective, ways in which it could have been handled. Public humiliation is not the way. In many cases, this just exasperates the situation.

I think I can safely say that the majority of us here deplore racist behavior.
I think I can also safely say that the admins will not allow it here.
Calling their attention to the problematic behavior can be done in ways other than the way it was done. Emails or PM's can be sent or you can click on the exclamation in the top right hand corner of a post to report it.

I know that is what I was trying to say in my post on that ill-fated thread and I am certain that is what others were trying to say as well. It's time that we all take a step back and look at things. Before posting something negative, or something that may reflect on the site in a negative manner, we need to ask...Is there another way I can handle this? 99.9% of the time the answer to this question is going to be YES.
post #15 of 16
Ski. Snow. Skiing. Technique. Equipment. Skiing. Resorts. Tele. etc etc etc
post #16 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars
I'm going to do the later. I'm going to withdraw from this website and forum.It's just not what it used to be. I'm going to join Gonzo in the ranks of the missing.Maybe I'll lurk about and decide to join in again sometime. Until then you can all stew in the pot together til the pot boils over and the scum is burned off. Seeya!
Lars, Bonni, Like Douglas MacArthur, Gonzo has returned . Stick around. By Thanksgiving most folks sense of equilibium will have returned as well.
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